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darter
18-Oct-2003, 16:58
I recently bought some Toyo-View 4x5 filmholders. Unfortunately they have changed their design and now use a plastic darkslide. Worse than that, they absolutely reeked, a kind of aromatic benzene odor that didn't go away despite two weeks in the open air. I returned them. What's the next best 4x5 filmholder? I have had problems with Rite-Way filmholders scratching the back side of the film sheet. Also, anyone else had a negative experience with the new Toyo film holders?

Jim Billlups
18-Oct-2003, 21:03
No problems with the plastic dark slides (or odors) to report with my Toyo 4x5 holders :)

Steve Baggett
18-Oct-2003, 23:11
I have 32 Toyo holders (all purchased new over several years) and after your post I went and gave them a good "sniffing". No odor at all. Something must have been spilled on yours and the plastic soaked it up.

d.s.
19-Oct-2003, 08:16
YES!!!

I recieved last week, 4 new toyo holders from B&H. (2 packs) and a box of new tri-x 320. It was sent UPS and was on my front porch (outside) when I got home.

I could smell it as soon as I walked up to the house. And this was in a sealed box! UPS guy must be wondering what's going on at my house. I don't think anything was spilled on the holders, or that anything is wrong with them. The boxes were unopened and the holders were in plastic bags inside. I think maybe they may be making these at a different factory and thats the way the factory smells. I just hope that it dosen't affect the film in them. I've developed 2 sheets so far and they look OK.

I special ordered a Browning shotgun once that came from Japan and it had a unique smell to it, (though different), that hung around for months.



dee

d.s.
22-Oct-2003, 19:33
When I ordered the holders and film, I also ordered an extra dark slide to cut down so I could make panoramic formats on 4x5... well It arrived today and no smell at all!

The more more I smell the original holders, the more I think they smell a little like fire or smoke or something like that. Maybe an industrial fire near by kind of thing. Dosen't seem to affect picture quality, That already was disturbing.

dee

Clapper
21-Nov-2003, 13:44
Maybe it was a blast of Godzilla fire breath? That would make them smell that way....

Sal Santamaura
18-Dec-2004, 13:53
I have 14 Toyo holders (10 4x5 and 4 8x10), all purchased new around 5 years ago. They precisely position the film, are extremely smooth in operation and don't cause fogging even if direct sunlight falls on a dark slide slot with the slide removed. A pleasure to own and use.

Several months ago I decided it might be nice to buy a few more 8x10 holders. They weren't available from any of the usual places; Jeff at Badger said "they're hard to come by." I submitted a "notify me when available" request to B&H, and recently received email from them indicating that one piece was in stock. I ordered it and, when it arrived, experienced the same stench noted above by others more than a year ago. The holder was perfectly new, factory packed and with Mamiya America Corporation's sticker/part number on the box. There was no evidence to indicate this item had been manufactured more than a very short time ago.

I was unable to tolerate the smell, and concerned about what the fumes might do to film even if my olfactory system could put up with them. I've returned the holder (B&H already credited my account for it) and resigned myself to having only the number of Toyo holders currently in my posession.

jens peter
21-Mar-2005, 11:31
Surprised to read the posting regarding smell from the Toyo holders. I have more than 40 toyo holders - all purchased new within the last 5 yrs. and I never experienced any smell.
Got 10 new 8x10 holders from the same batch as Sal (mentioned above) - the entire shipment to Mamiya consisted of 11 holders - dident take the last one - I know it went to B&H (I also got the same notify me when available message shortly after). So I guess is it was the one holder Sal got. None of mine smelled and all 10 holders works flawlesly.

Juergen Sattler
21-Mar-2005, 13:11
Here's a thought - at least two of the folks above got their holders from B&H in New York. A couple of weeks ago, B&H had a fire in one of their warehouses - maybe those holders were in that warehouse? Could that be the stench?

Juergen

Sal Santamaura
21-Mar-2005, 14:11
The fire at B&H, which occurred within the last month or so, cannot possibly explain this smell. Holders in question (starting with Phil's post up top) were purchased between October 2003 and December 2004.

Juergen Sattler
21-Mar-2005, 14:14
Sal,

you're right - I missed the dates when those questions were originally submitted. Weird stuff though - smelly film holders:-)

Jeff van Eek
21-Mar-2005, 14:35
I too have excetionally smelly toyo holders. I had to move them to another room they were so bad.

jens peter
2-Oct-2005, 09:07
Today I walked along the haborfront together with my good friend, who happens also to be my photodealer - he said "are you aware that your new 8x10 Toyo filmholders smell?" I took delivery of 8 brand new Toyo 8x10 holders last week, .... and apparently there had been a distictive smell in the shops storage room before I picked them up. The staff had been looking for the caurse (thinking that it could be an electrical fire.....they located the smell to the holders after everybody had been using their noses). We laughed, and then I rememberd this thread, becaurse I once responded to it, saying that none of my Toyo filmholders ever smelled.
Well, I went home, unpacked the 8 new holders, still in their original packing......and yes, very true, there is a distinctive smell, just like burned plastic from the holders. Not much, but still noticable. The holders are next to me right now - perfect, there is no oil, no chemical residue of any kind...just a slight smell from the plastic.
I am quite sure that this is not a permanenent condition, that the smell will dissapear once the holders get unpacked and see some use. Just like when a room is freshly painted and smells from paint a week or two. Furthermore, nothing that will affect the function of the holders.
Perhaps the smell just indicate that the holders may be from a fresh production batch from Toyo, a batch that may not have been kept in storage for a long time??

Best regards from Scandinavia :-)

John_4185
2-Oct-2005, 09:14
The plastic or composite is outgassing. You might consider taking one to a local university that has a composites materials program. Our engineers are accustomed to such questions and can often identify the cause rather quickly.

Regarding the Browning that stank - it's likely from the stock finish, but sometimes a smell emanates from the cheap tack used in packaging. Obnoxious, modern materials.

d.s.
9-Oct-2005, 07:39
"Regarding the Browning that stank - it's likely from the stock finish, but sometimes a smell emanates from the cheap tack used in packaging."

It was the reciever and barrels that strongly had the smell. I think it was the lubricant used in the CNC milling machines. Or the preserevative oil to keep things from rusting. Or both. The stock didnn't smell much. In fact, after wipeing it down the stock smelled like the rag I used. The rest of the gun smelled for a long time. If I open it up and get my nose close, I can just get a hint of it now.

The Toyo holders still have their smell, but not as overwelming as a few years ago. And they work fine and there seems to be no side affects.

The browning Citori superlite over/under .410 is a dream, and shoots right where I look.

dee

John_4185
9-Oct-2005, 11:19
dee seegers The browning Citori superlite over/under .410 is a dream, and shoots right where I look.

Well, don't look at me!

OT continued: My wife's father had the last, genuine sportings good store in town and when he passed away he left a boatload of Brownings, but none of them from the Orient. ON TOPIC: he also left the Leica he bought new in 1934. oops - minature.

Another try - how does one get the smell of OLD out of equipment? And what is it? Not fungus, at least none that I can see. Also, is it just luck that the only fungused lenses I have seen were made in Japan? Finally, can anyone point to a digital old-smell plug-in for my Scratch-n-Sniff website?

Off to work. Bye.

hobbim
13-Jul-2008, 10:59
I have a few Toyo holders that had the smell. I think it took a couple months before the smell was gone.

Sal Santamaura
13-Jul-2008, 11:33
I did purchase a box of two more 4x5 holders roughly 1-1/2 years ago as a test. They stunk as expected, but I placed them out in the garage to "air out." As of this writing, they still reek, albeit slightly less so.

The test continues...

Turner Reich
13-Jul-2008, 16:37
"For sale new Toyo film holders, they are brand new, you can smell it"

Maybe they will turn out to be the best one's for quick and dirty photography!

Jim Noel
13-Jul-2008, 21:18
I have used Riteway holders for as long as they have been manufactured and never scratched the back of the film. There must be something wrong with the ones you have used.

Sal Santamaura
12-Aug-2013, 13:13
I did purchase a box of two more 4x5 holders roughly 1-1/2 years ago as a test. They stunk as expected, but I placed them out in the garage to "air out." As of this writing, they still reek, albeit slightly less so.

The test continues...A bit more than five years later -- no change. They still stink.

John Kasaian
14-Aug-2013, 13:03
This is why it is always a good idea to eat lots of garlic! :)

Sal Santamaura
14-Aug-2013, 13:50
This is why it is always a good idea to eat lots of garlic!...I find reeking photographers just as off-putting as reeking film holders. If in the field with the former, I always shoot from an upwind location.

John Kasaian
14-Aug-2013, 14:06
I find reeking photographers just as off-putting as reeking film holders. If in the field with the former, I always shoot from an upwind location.
It also works keeping away onlookers who ask-- "Is that Hasselblad?":rolleyes:
Got to love a multi-tasker!

AtlantaTerry
14-Aug-2013, 14:07
When a house has a fire it is suggested to put out saucers of vanilla which somehow neutralizes the odor.

I wonder if putting a smelly film holder into a box with an open jar of vanilla would cure the problem.

Sal Santamaura
14-Aug-2013, 14:20
When a house has a fire it is suggested to put out saucers of vanilla which somehow neutralizes the odor...There are many products/substances alleged to "neutralize" odors. They don't. Instead, they attempt to mask the offensive odor with their own. For people having low olfactory thresholds, that simply results in two smells, one that reeks and another which, while potentially pleasant on its own, is now negatively associated with the offensive one. :D

tgtaylor
14-Aug-2013, 15:25
Surprised to read the posting regarding smell from the Toyo holders. I have more than 40 toyo holders - all purchased new within the last 5 yrs. and I never experienced any smell.
Got 10 new 8x10 holders from the same batch as Sal (mentioned above) - the entire shipment to Mamiya consisted of 11 holders - dident take the last one - I know it went to B&H (I also got the same notify me when available message shortly after). So I guess is it was the one holder Sal got. None of mine smelled and all 10 holders works flawlesly.

Vaughn
14-Aug-2013, 15:46
Just throwing this out there -- I wonder if a shipment got gassed with some sort of insecticide or such (perhaps due to food items in the same shipment, or some such)...and there was a reaction with the plastic to cause it to start breaking down and creating a by-product that causes the odor (yet leaving the material structually sound).

Sal Santamaura
14-Aug-2013, 15:50
___Did you intend to put any text in post #27 or just quote post #8 from 2005? :D

Sal Santamaura
14-Aug-2013, 16:00
Just throwing this out there -- I wonder if a shipment got gassed with some sort of insecticide or such (perhaps due to food items in the same shipment, or some such)...and there was a reaction with the plastic to cause it to start breaking down and creating a by-product that causes the odor (yet leaving the material structually sound).I suspect the more likely explanation is that, when Toyo moved production of its film holder parts to China, the material used transitioned to one just as adulterated as many items manufactured there. This problem has been around so long and is so consistent that contamination by an insecticide used in shipping cannot explain it.

While the vast preponderance of items imported from China are "Walmart junk," some otherwise high-quality Chinese products can also found. Unfortunately, almost all of them stink too. A shame really, since adherence to proper material standards could enable China to become "the new Japan." It doesn't yet seem to be happening.

Racer X 69
14-Aug-2013, 18:54
While the vast preponderance of items imported from China are "Walmart junk," some otherwise high-quality Chinese products can also found. Unfortunately, almost all of them stink too.

Like tires on Chinese wheelbarows.

Michael Alpert
14-Aug-2013, 20:09
I have several 8x10 Toyo filmholders that I have stopped using because I cannot stand their odor, which seems to be coming from the plastic that they are made of, not from anything applied on them after manufacture. Perhaps spraying the holders with the spray fixative used by artists would help. There must be an odorless permanent fixative available. I'm quite busy these days, but I'll test that idea if I get a chance. There's really nothing to lose.

Racer X 69
14-Aug-2013, 20:51
I have several 8x10 Toyo filmholders that I have stopped using because I cannot stand their odor, which seems to be coming from the plastic that they are made of, not from anything applied on them after manufacture. Perhaps spraying the holders with the spray fixative used by artists would help. There must be an odorless permanent fixative available. I'm quite busy these days, but I'll test that idea if I get a chance. There's really nothing to lose.

Good idea, but . . . .

The material the slides are made from is quite slick. I doubt the spray fixative will stay adhered to them for long, and will become a problem as it peels and flakes off onto the film.

Michael Alpert
15-Aug-2013, 14:22
Good idea, but . . . .

The material the slides are made from is quite slick. I doubt the spray fixative will stay adhered to them for long, and will become a problem as it peels and flakes off onto the film.

I wrote that it needed to be a permanent fixative with that possibility in mind. You and I really don't know what kinds of spray coatings are available, so we're flying blind without a rudder, so to speak. Given the situation, any solution is better than no solution. I just don't know when I'll get around to trying to fix the problem.

Jim Noel
15-Aug-2013, 21:36
I recently bought some Toyo-View 4x5 filmholders. Unfortunately they have changed their design and now use a plastic darkslide. Worse than that, they absolutely reeked, a kind of aromatic benzene odor that didn't go away despite two weeks in the open air. I returned them. What's the next best 4x5 filmholder? I have had problems with Rite-Way filmholders scratching the back side of the film sheet. Also, anyone else had a negative experience with the new Toyo film holders?
If you have trouble with Riteway holders, you must do something wrong. I have over 100 which I have had for over 30 years and never had a scratch on the base side of the film.

Doug Herta
19-Aug-2013, 18:20
Like tires on Chinese wheelbarows.

Is that the same smell that you get when you go to Harbor Freight tools? That rubber out gas smell?

Farside
21-Aug-2013, 12:38
When a house has a fire it is suggested to put out saucers of vanilla which somehow neutralizes the odor.

I wonder if putting a smelly film holder into a box with an open jar of vanilla would cure the problem.

What works in a smelly microwave oven is to put a saucer of sodium bicarb in it.

John Kasaian
21-Aug-2013, 15:12
Why don't you just return the stinkers to where they came from?
Unless they were gifts (in which case you're not out anything) you had to pay something for them.
What's so hard about returning defective merchandise?
Toyo products are usually very well made and certainly don't come cheap! For less $$ you could have bought sweet smelling Liscos (and perhaps if you did, Liscos would still be in production)

Sal Santamaura
21-Aug-2013, 20:04
Why don't you just return the stinkers to where they came from? Unless they were gifts (in which case you're not out anything) you had to pay something for them. What's so hard about returning defective merchandise?...This thread is 10 years old. The OP did return his. I returned my reeking 8x10 holder. The two 4x5 Toyo holders I bought as a long-term test are nine years old and serving their purpose, namely determining whether their stink ever dissipates. Michael Alpert says he's stopped using his because of the smell, but doesn't specify how long ago he purchased them, so we don't know if they're remotely close to being returnable. Is your question directed to Michael?


...Toyo products are usually very well made and certainly don't come cheap! For less $$ you could have bought sweet smelling Liscos (and perhaps if you did, Liscos would still be in production)A bit more than 15 years ago, when Calumet was still a photo retailer that carried something I'm interested in, I bought a dozen 8x10 Lisco holders from its local store. While the Lisco holders exuded no actual smell, their manufacturing tolerances stunk, as did those of Fidelity and Riteway holders made in the same plant. I arrived with some precision ground bar stock and a depth gauge. In order to select twelve Lisco holders for purchase, it was necessary to measure and reject approximately two dozen more which were seriously outside the ANSI specification's tolerances.

Toyo holders have never exceeded ANSI specifications when measured the same way. That's why I had four of them in 8x10 and 10 in 4x5. Since new production Toyos stink, I've kept an eye out for NOS opportunities. This has lead to my acquiring two more 8x10s and eight more 4x5s, the latter from Kerry Thalmann a few years back. Sharp negatives and a happy olfactory system have been the result. :)

Michael Alpert
21-Aug-2013, 20:15
Why don't you just return the stinkers to where they came from?
Unless they were gifts (in which case you're not out anything) you had to pay something for them.
What's so hard about returning defective merchandise?
Toyo products are usually very well made and certainly don't come cheap! For less $$ you could have bought sweet smelling Liscos (and perhaps if you did, Liscos would still be in production)

John,

I thought Time was going to solve my 8x10 filmholder problem. All I needed was patience. Now it's a decade later and I admit that I was mistaken. (Since 2003 I've been happily using a 5x7 camera.) You don't need to be a genius to know that there's a lesson to be learned here.

John Kasaian
22-Aug-2013, 06:14
John,

I thought Time was going to solve my 8x10 filmholder problem. All I needed was patience. Now it's a decade later and I admit that I was mistaken. (Since 2003 I've been happily using a 5x7 camera.) You don't need to be a genius to know that there's a lesson to be learned here.
My apologies, Mr. Alpert--I didn't mean to come across so snarky but only to point out that consumers should get a fair shake when forking out hard earned money---I know some new products actually are expected and do improve (wear in) with usage, but an obvious manufacturing defect which apparently effects so many consumers speaks of an arrogant attitude on the part of the manufacturer in dealing with it's customers.
That's what I meant to say.

Michael Alpert
22-Aug-2013, 09:23
. . . an obvious manufacturing defect which apparently effects so many consumers speaks of an arrogant attitude on the part of the manufacturer in dealing with it's customers.

I agree.

John, thank you for your post.

photobymike
22-Aug-2013, 18:35
I recently bought some Toyo-View 4x5 filmholders. Unfortunately they have changed their design and now use a plastic darkslide. Worse than that, they absolutely reeked, a kind of aromatic benzene odor that didn't go away despite two weeks in the open air. I returned them. What's the next best 4x5 filmholder? I have had problems with Rite-Way filmholders scratching the back side of the film sheet. Also, anyone else had a negative experience with the new Toyo film holders?

i used a product called Ozenite on a Graflex that smelled like it had been pee on. i also used it in a used car i bought that smelled like cigarettes and ass inside. it can be found at car parts houses.

Shen45
26-Sep-2013, 17:19
I know this is an old thread but has anyone noticed any detriment to their film or personal health attributable to the odour from said holders. Does the odour have any fogging potential on film left in a holder for any length of time? Sal??

Sal Santamaura
27-Sep-2013, 08:10
...has anyone noticed any detriment to their...personal health attributable to the odour from said holders...The only negative health effect is neck pain from my head snapping back every time I catch a whiff of the two long-term test holders sitting in our garage. :)


...Does the odour have any fogging potential on film left in a holder for any length of time?...Sorry, no information. I can't stand to be in those holders' presence, so I've never even considered putting a sheet of film in one.

Shen45
27-Sep-2013, 15:53
:) The health question was semi serious as some people have allergies to odours, maybe someone else can answer the fogging question. Thanks for answering.

cdavis324
27-Sep-2013, 16:08
I use toyo holders, and have noticed that when I leave film in the holder for an extended amount of time(a month or more) the edges of the film(portra) turn magenta. I initially thought it was a light leak, but considering my holders are stored in an opaque bag in a dark closet when not in use, I'm not so sure it's a light leak. The only thing I can think of is that the plastic the body of the film holder is made of is out gassing something that only fogs the green/magenta layer. oh, and my holders don't smell, and never did. Somehow I think this may be related??

I have a friend who leaves his film in his lisco/fidelity holders for many months - sometimes a year before getting the film developed, and he has no issues.

Anyone else experience this or have thoughts?

Farside
30-Oct-2013, 11:01
Seems like it's not unique to film holders, either.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24741832

Jonathan Barlow
30-Oct-2013, 12:37
I use toyo holders, and have noticed that when I leave film in the holder for an extended amount of time(a month or more) the edges of the film(portra) turn magenta. I initially thought it was a light leak, but considering my holders are stored in an opaque bag in a dark closet when not in use, I'm not so sure it's a light leak. The only thing I can think of is that the plastic the body of the film holder is made of is out gassing something that only fogs the green/magenta layer. oh, and my holders don't smell, and never did. Somehow I think this may be related??

I have a friend who leaves his film in his lisco/fidelity holders for many months - sometimes a year before getting the film developed, and he has no issues.

Anyone else experience this or have thoughts?


Were your Toyo film holders made in China (unregulated contract factories) or Japan?

AtlantaTerry
30-Oct-2013, 12:49
I find it strange that people at the factories and companies that employ them seem to not notice the problem until customers complain. It must then cost companies such as Lenovo, Dell (laptops) and Toyo (sheet film holders) a fortune to get replacements to customers. In the long run, what have they gained by going cheap? Not much I would guess.

Jonathan Barlow
30-Oct-2013, 13:31
I find it strange that people at the factories and companies that employ them seem to not notice the problem until customers complain. It must then cost companies such as Lenovo, Dell (laptops) and Toyo (sheet film holders) a fortune to get replacements to customers. In the long run, what have they gained by going cheap? Not much I would guess.


They were able to show a nice profit for that quarter, and more importantly, the CEO got his ten million dollar bonus.

Farside
30-Oct-2013, 14:20
I find it strange that people at the factories and companies that employ them seem to not notice the problem until customers complain. It must then cost companies such as Lenovo, Dell (laptops) and Toyo (sheet film holders) a fortune to get replacements to customers. In the long run, what have they gained by going cheap? Not much I would guess.

The art is in going cheap without getting caught out (too much).

John Kasaian
30-Oct-2013, 18:25
Never buy film holders that smell worse than a wet dog.
Never.
It's just not right.

gleaf
30-Oct-2013, 20:00
Talked to a the friendly polymer chemist today. Likely candidate source are either the mold release agent or the plasticizer. If some dilute citrus type cleaner can clear the problem then it was the mold release agent. If not then the plasticizer is purchasing. That means the part is getting more brittle ( aging ) quickly. Does anyone have back door access to a GCMS? Spectrum of the gas would identify the compound. Would like to try the citrus cleaner.
How do I make sure I buy a fresh stinker? I assume the 4 x 5's are included in the problem children list.
Love problems.. thought I retired. Oh now I get to choose... life is good.

gleaf
31-Oct-2013, 04:13
. If not then the plasticizer is purchasing.

Oh how I dislike sneaky spelling corrections... plasticizer is degenerating and purchasing.

Brian C. Miller
5-Jun-2014, 06:58
I just bought a new pair of Toyo 4x5 holders and a pair of Fidelity holders. Yep, the Toyo holders smelled like a new inflatable children's beach ball! The smell went away pretty quickly, and was only noticeable if I stuck my nose on the holders. The Toyo holders came individually wrapped in plastic bags, while the Fidelity holders did not. That's probably the reason the Toyo holders retain their factory smell.

tgtaylor
5-Jun-2014, 07:39
How much did you pay for them?

Sal Santamaura
5-Jun-2014, 08:48
I just bought a new pair of Toyo 4x5 holders and a pair of Fidelity holders. Yep, the Toyo holders smelled like a new inflatable children's beach ball! The smell went away pretty quickly, and was only noticeable if I stuck my nose on the holders. The Toyo holders came individually wrapped in plastic bags, while the Fidelity holders did not. That's probably the reason the Toyo holders retain their factory smell.I'd not be so quick to conclude that the Toyo holder smell "went away." Although people's olfactory thresholds differ, their sensitivity to smells is also affected by ambient relative humidity (RH). The lower RH is, the more acutely we can detect odors. Things are usually pretty damp in Everett (86% right now), so it might have only been the extremely high VOC concentration immediately upon opening those bags that was detectable. My long-term-test pair of 4x5 Toyo holders in the garage are fairly stink-free when it's damp here, but can be smelled from several yards away when offshore winds drop us to single-digit RH.

Even if you can't smell them due to local conditions or personal sensitivity variations, of concern to me would be whether the outgassing, which has continued for more than seven years in my test, has any effect on film. See post #47 in this thread for a discussion of that possibility.

Brian C. Miller
5-Jun-2014, 09:32
How much did you pay for them?

I bought them from Badger Graphics (https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_list&c=176).


Things are usually pretty damp in Everett (86% right now)

It's the Pacific north west, rain forest side. Dry would be unusual, and would probably mean that I'm on the other side of the mountains. Yakima is 32% right now.


My long-term-test pair of 4x5 Toyo holders in the garage ... of concern to me would be whether the outgassing, which has continued for more than seven years in my test, has any effect on film. ...

Why don't you list them for sale? If you never use them, what's the point of having them? Are you using them for rodent control? ("Stay away, you filthy vermin, lest you face the dreaded Toyo film holders of much stinkyness!" "Oh, I'm a sewer rat, and even I can't stand those things! I'm out of here!" And thus the garage was saved.) If you are actually concerned about chemical interactions, then do a test and find out. I usually only have film in a holder for a few days. A side-by-side test of Fidelity and Toyo should be definitive for your purposes.

Sal Santamaura
5-Jun-2014, 09:51
...Why don't you list them for sale? If you never use them, what's the point of having them?...The purpose of having them is a long-term test to determine whether the stink ever dissipates. Are you angling to buy them? ;)


...If you are actually concerned about chemical interactions, then do a test and find out. I usually only have film in a holder for a few days. A side-by-side test of Fidelity and Toyo should be definitive for your purposes.I've no interest in performing that test. The concern only applies to someone who might use such Toyo holders. See post #45. :D

ROL
5-Jun-2014, 16:43
Suggested by this thread's title, I can't help but be drawn to a new expletive every time I fumble with film holders from now onů


:mad: Those goddammed reeking film holders!!! :mad:

Brian C. Miller
9-Jun-2014, 08:02
I took out the darkslides, and let the holders air out. There is a very faint odor around the light traps now, and that's it.

tgtaylor
9-Jun-2014, 09:56
If they "reeked" as you say, then why didn't you return them? I have more than 20Toyo 4x5 holders all of which I purchased new except for 4. I never noticed an odor with either the new or used. Recently I purchased 5 brand new Toyo 8x10 holders at a cost of over a thousand dollars and believe me if they came with a foul odor I would have returned them for exchange in a heartbeat. And I did smell the latter after reading this thread. No odor other than that slight "brand new" odor that all new material exhibit and which disappears completely after the first use. Now, on their second go around of usage, they just have a blank "no smell" to them.

It's possible that Badger got snookered on a shipment of Toyo holders. I'm not saying that is what happened but it is possible if they went outside of the regular distributor channels on their order and ended-up with counterfeit Toyo holders instead of the real ones. I bought all of my holders from B&H who deals exclusively with The MAC Group which is the Toyo's official US representative. So my holders are real Toyo holders.

BTW, the 8x10 holders are smooth as silk functionally.

Thomas

Brian C. Miller
9-Jun-2014, 10:09
Fake Toyo holders? Who would ever bother to fake a high-quality film holder? The market is vanishingly small to get a return on the tooling. And these holders have approximately the same construction as my 8x10 holder, which I bought used, and has no smell. Yes, they did have an initial pungent new plastic toy smell to them, but it dissipated rapidly, and is all gone except for a very faint smell from the light traps.

Methinks Sal doth protest too much about odoriferous holders. Ahs loadin' em up fer shootin'!

Sal Santamaura
9-Jun-2014, 12:52
...Methinks Sal doth protest too much about odoriferous holders...How so? And, why would I do that? You are the one who resurrected this thread. I simply posted facts. Nobody would be happier than me if Toyo got its act together and once again offered holders that didn't stink.

By the way, if anyone wants to know about copying Toyo plastic film holders, ask Paul Droluk how easy that was at Fotoman. :)

Brian C. Miller
9-Jun-2014, 15:39
How so?


... can be smelled from several yards away when offshore winds drop us to single-digit RH. ...

Hmmm hmmm hm hm hmmmm hm hmmmmm ... years in the garage ... hm hm hmmmm hm hmmm ... won't sell them ... hmmm hm hm ... ;)

What you are doing reminds me of a Saturday Night Live sketch (I think it was with Tom Hanks) where a family shares their pain, and things that discomfort them. Literally.

I have also posted my experiences with new Toyo holders. They really aren't so horrible, the smell goes away, and all is well. (Anyways, it's not like there's a smellometer that you could use and say, "I got a reading of 4.7 yuckies from three feet away! The stockyards provably smell better than that!") I've had shoes where the new sneaker smell lasted longer than the Toyo holders' smell.

(Still, what would be the point of counterfeit film holders? "Hey man, I got some Rolexes, Ilex Number 5 and Number 6 shutters, and Toyo film holders here! Cheap! You won't find a better price! And the original master cut of Star Wars on DVD! You won't find it anywhere else! And did I mention the Toyo film holders? Gotta special on those!")

Sal Santamaura
9-Jun-2014, 16:07
How so?...


...can be smelled from several yards away when offshore winds drop us to single-digit RH...


Hmmm hmmm hm hm hmmmm hm hmmmmm ... years in the garage ... hm hm hmmmm hm hmmm ... won't sell them ... hmmm hm hm ... ;)...The partial quote of mine that you included doesn't in any way answer the question "how do I protest too much?"


...What you are doing reminds me of a Saturday Night Live sketch...Denigrating long-term trials and reasoned inquiry is more and more common today. It falls under the heading of ad hominem. Facts are inconvenient, so let's shoot the messenger.


...I have also posted my experiences with new Toyo holders. They really aren't so horrible, the smell goes away, and all is well...What you've reported is that you were unable to smell them after a brief period at high ambient RH. And you have no intention of leaving film in them for more than a few days. Far for conclusive evidence that "all is well."

If perhaps I seem a bit over sensitive to (what might be good-natured) criticism, it's probably due to experiencing too much general societal disdain for rigor. I prefer not reaching conclusions without data. To each his or her own.

Brian C. Miller
9-Jun-2014, 18:27
Nuh-uh, Sal, I'm not gonna buy that one! In order to determine the holder's fitness, it must be loaded with film. The film must be exposed to a test target, and then developed. No film, no development, no density readings, no science. Science is supposed to be based on hypothesis and experimentation, right?

So that means two sets of holders need to be loaded with film, Toyo and non-Toyo. Then the film is properly exposed to the test target, and developed. That's the base line. Then the holders are reloaded and let sit for one day. Repeat development and reload, wait two days, four days, eight days, etc. At some point, hypothetically, there will be a difference in density readings between the two holders. At what point are the readings enough to affect a B&W print? A color print? E6?

Then you can publish your findings and someone else can see if your results are duplicated.

That's grade school-level science. That is rigor.

(I think I learned it with sprouting lima beans. Grade school did have science classes, and my family had a mid-1960s World Book encyclopedia, with all of the (now dangerous) experiments. Hey, kids, make your own ion engine out of car parts! And don't worry about the cat, the fur grows back just fine...)

Sal Santamaura
9-Jun-2014, 20:01
...In order to determine the holder's fitness, it must be loaded with film. The film must be exposed to a test target, and then developed. No film, no development, no density readings, no science...Such an experiment must be conducted to determine the holder's fitness for use with film. I am conducting no such experiment because the sample holders in my garage have not passed the first hurdle. They're not fit for being proximate to my nose. If/when they ever cease reeking, I might perform an experiment with film. Until then, I wouldn't even consider bringing them near an emulsion or my camera. No lack of rigor here.

Ari
19-Apr-2016, 10:01
Seeing as there's no definitive answer to this, I decided to take up the matter with two Toyo holders that arrived recently.
They smelled strongly of stale pee, i.e., human urine.

1. My first idea was to get something at the pet store, an odour neutralizer, and I spent $20 on their best product.
Applied some to a soft cloth and wiped the holders.
Result: very little change.

2. My wife suggested vinegar, so I mixed up 1 part white vinegar, 1 part distilled water, and poured the solution into a spray bottle.
I sprayed the holders liberally, inside and out, dark slides and everything, in short, every surface.
I put it all outside to air-dry.
Result: after one hour, the smell is noticeably weaker. This appears to work.

Next, I'm going to get my print drying rack out of storage, place all the Toyo parts on the rack, and repeat #2, spraying liberally each time the holders appear dry.
Maybe repeating the procedure 2-3 times will get rid of the smell for good.

I'll update in a few days.

Wayne
19-Apr-2016, 10:31
Seeing as there's no definitive answer to this, I decided to take up the matter with two Toyo holders that arrived recently.
They smelled strongly of stale pee, i.e., human urine.

1. My first idea was to get something at the pet store, an odour neutralizer, and I spent $20 on their best product.
Applied some to a soft cloth and wiped the holders.
Result: very little change.
.

Was their "best product" Nature's Miracle? If not, try it. I've used it to get rid of skunk odor and it works awfully well, so I'd be surprised if it couldn't get rid of some mere pee odor.

Ari
19-Apr-2016, 11:10
Was their "best product" Nature's Miracle? If not, try it. I've used it to get rid of skunk odor and it works awfully well, so I'd be surprised if it couldn't get rid of some mere pee odor.

No, it's called NOK-OUT. The problem with those neutralizers is that the plastic really has to be immersed in order for the product to attack the odour.
Also, the plastic is not an ideal "carrier" of scents, so it's hard for the neutralizer to get some "tooth".
In short, it's easier to rid an animal of a smell than it is to rid a synthetic product of the same smell, especially when using a product made for animals.
Anyway, vinegar works so far and it's cheap.
I just sprayed my second coat, the smell is 90% gone. I'll do a third spraying to be sure.

Jim Noel
19-Apr-2016, 11:28
I recently bought some Toyo-View 4x5 filmholders. Unfortunately they have changed their design and now use a plastic darkslide. Worse than that, they absolutely reeked, a kind of aromatic benzene odor that didn't go away despite two weeks in the open air. I returned them. What's the next best 4x5 filmholder? I have had problems with Rite-Way filmholders scratching the back side of the film sheet. Also, anyone else had a negative experience with the new Toyo film holders?

I have 100+ Riteway holders, and have never had a problem with scratches.

Willie
19-Apr-2016, 11:31
Have any with the holders tried putting them a container or small room and running an Ozone Generator? It is used to get the smoke and burned smells out of homes and building that have had a fire. Also gets rid of a lot of other smells. Might be worth trying here.

Sal Santamaura
19-Apr-2016, 12:59
...Maybe repeating the procedure 2-3 times will get rid of the smell for good...Don't (do? :) ) hold your breath.

Ari
19-Apr-2016, 13:08
Last spray using vinegar only.
There is still a hint of the smell, it's been mostly neutralized by the vinegar, and what's left is not strong or pungent.
After this a good cleaning is in order.

I'd say the smell is 90% gone, not much better than it was after the first application of vinegar, but hey, it's 90% better than it was yesterday. :)

Jonathan Barlow
19-Apr-2016, 19:04
Could the smell be from some sort of chemical bath used to clean the plastic after it's assembled and finished?

Or perhaps just an unfortunate plastic recipe from a new supplier?

Could the plastic be outgassing?

Why wouldn't the manufacturer notice an awful smell in the factory; especially since film holders require a lot of hand assembly?

Are the new TOYO holders still made in Japan?

B.S.Kumar
19-Apr-2016, 22:31
I've not come across any of the so-called "reeking" film holders here in Japan. The newest Toyo holders have blue lettering. They are made in Japan, and say so on the holder itself.

Kumar

Sal Santamaura
20-Apr-2016, 08:07
...The newest Toyo holders have blue lettering. They are made in Japan, and say so on the holder itself..."Made" means assembled. That doesn't indicate the parts were molded in Japan. Didn't Toyo offshore parts manufacture to China? Do we have any idea what is in the plastic since this problem began?

Ari
20-Apr-2016, 09:49
Sad to say that the smell has returned after a day, though nowhere near as bad as when I started.
It's merely annoying, rather than offensive and eye-watering.

I contacted MAC Group in NJ, distributors for Toyo in the USA, they said they had heard of the problem, but didn't know the solution.
They added that getting information from Japan HQ is difficult at best.

SergeiR
20-Apr-2016, 10:09
"Chemical guys" air fresheners (for car!) works awesome on taking smells away.. Might be funny to have holders with smell of new car.. but hey..

Jac@stafford.net
20-Apr-2016, 10:49
I hope I am not going off-topic, but what would make the holders smell? I have often found items from China which used a kind of glue that smelled terrible.

I am concerned because I happen to have a peculiar fifties British LF aerial SLR (air-to-air) camera and case that has an eye-watering odor. It literally made me sick. The case is of a substance I've never seen before. It has the look of black layered leather, but has the characteristics of hard plastic. I cannot recall ever smelling anything like this. Can anything out-gas for over sixty years? Any ideas?

Vinegar? It's worth a try. I'll work on a small part first in case the acid reacts to make things worse.

Ari
20-Apr-2016, 11:20
Jac,
My wife said letting the holders sit in milk was the surefire way to get rid of the smell, but I quickly vetoed that suggestion.
Short of that, wiping down with vinegar is an option.
I also tried a few drops of pure orange oil in a spray bottle, and that helped somewhat.

John Kasaian
20-Apr-2016, 11:26
Why not ask Toyo what they recommend?

Jac@stafford.net
20-Apr-2016, 11:33
Jac,
My wife said letting the holders sit in milk was the surefire way to get rid of the smell, but I quickly vetoed that suggestion. [...]

Milk! Interesting! When doing a little history of plastic, I found this, Early 1900s "Casein formaldehyde was also developed at this time. Based on fat-free milk and rennin, this could be hardened and shaped to make buttons, buckles and knitting needles."

I'll stick to vinegar, too. :)

Andrew O'Neill
20-Apr-2016, 11:37
I got some very stinky, 8x10 holders with sticky slides once. I wiped all the slides down with Pledge. Nice smelling holders with slick slides.

Ari
20-Apr-2016, 14:00
I got some very stinky, 8x10 holders with sticky slides once. I wiped all the slides down with Pledge. Nice smelling holders with slick slides.

Andrew, I tried this and it does help mask the odour quite a bit.
Thanks!

Wayne
20-Apr-2016, 16:41
I bought a flexible clothes dryer duct recently and it nearly drove me out of the house. It was literally like shoving my face in a bucket of fiberglass resin. I had to open the windows and run the dryer through several hot cycles before I could even be in the room with it. I was surprised it was made in Canada not China.

What have I ever done to you, Canada?

Ari
20-Apr-2016, 17:14
I bought a flexible clothes dryer duct recently and it nearly drove me out of the house. It was literally like shoving my face in a bucket of fiberglass resin. I had to open the windows and run the dryer through several hot cycles before I could even be in the room with it. I was surprised it was made in Canada not China.

What have I ever done to you, Canada?

Sorry :)

B.S.Kumar
20-Apr-2016, 17:31
"Made" means assembled. That doesn't indicate the parts were molded in Japan. Didn't Toyo offshore parts manufacture to China? Do we have any idea what is in the plastic since this problem began?

So I asked Toyo:
I would like some information on the Toyo film holders. Are they assembled in Japan from parts made in China? Or are they fully manufactured in Japan? My friend says that now most Toyo parts are actually made in China, and only assembly is done in Japan. Is this true?

and this is what they wrote:

"Our cut film holders made in Japan 4X5, 8X10 too.
Manufactured every parts made in Japan and assembled in our company.
We don't use China."

I hope this clears up the confusion, at least as far as current products are concerned.

Kumar

Ari
20-Apr-2016, 17:43
"We don't use China."
Hmm, sounds like you touched a nerve.

Kumar, next time, would you ask Toyo why their new film holders smell funny, and what can be done about it?
Or pass along some contact information (assuming you wrote in English)?
Thank you

B.S.Kumar
20-Apr-2016, 17:52
Ari, I've sold a couple of new 8x10 holders recently, and I assure you they didn't smell funny. I've sold a bunch of used 4x5 holders of all vintages, and none of them had a problem. Maybe funny smelling film holders are banned in Japan :)

I will ask and post their answer.

Kumar

Ari
20-Apr-2016, 17:56
Thank you, Kumar.
I have two new holders (blue stripe on top), and never experienced the phenomenon until now, though I've read plenty about it online.

B.S.Kumar
20-Apr-2016, 22:05
This the reply:

"Your friend saying strong smell was CH8X10 about dark slide.
It is a certain time about 10~~15 years ago.
But they was acquisition from Japanese maker also.
Now products(CH8X10) smell is very few.
So, reduce smell way are expose it to wind(air)."

Kumar

Ari
21-Apr-2016, 05:16
Thank you, Kumar.

Sal Santamaura
21-Apr-2016, 07:34
...I decided to take up the matter with two Toyo holders that arrived recently...Before I address the comments in recent posts, please clear up a few things:


Were these two Toyo holders purchased new?
If so, where were they bought?
What size are they?

Thanks in advance.

Ari
21-Apr-2016, 08:11
Hi Sal,
I bought the two holders second-hand, but they are the newer version.
I knew beforehand that they had the smell, and they are 8x10 holders.

As of today, I can't smell anything until my nose is pressed up to the holders, so some progress has been made.

Sal Santamaura
21-Apr-2016, 18:01
OK, rather than assume anyone will read this entire thread and remember/correlate everything in it with recent posts, here's a summary of the high points in my contributions.


I've not come across any of the so-called "reeking" film holders here in Japan...


...I've sold a couple of new 8x10 holders recently, and I assure you they didn't smell funny. I've sold a bunch of used 4x5 holders of all vintages, and none of them had a problem...

I've never been able to purchase a used photographic item from Japan that didn't smell musty and require swabbing down with dilute chlorine bleach to kill the spores, followed by airing out so the bleach smell would dissipate in a couple of days. This is consistent with my experience visiting Tokyo and some other Japanese cities. The islands are very damp, with high relative humidity (RH). See post #58, where I explained that high RH substantially reduces humans' ability to detect odors.


...The newest Toyo holders have blue lettering. They are made in Japan, and say so on the holder itself...


So I asked Toyo:
I would like some information on the Toyo film holders. Are they assembled in Japan from parts made in China? Or are they fully manufactured in Japan? My friend says that now most Toyo parts are actually made in China, and only assembly is done in Japan. Is this true?

and this is what they wrote:

"Our cut film holders made in Japan 4X5, 8X10 too.
Manufactured every parts made in Japan and assembled in our company.
We don't use China."

I hope this clears up the confusion, at least as far as current products are concerned...I relied on reports that Toyo had off-shored its plastic molding operation. If those reports weren't correct, and Toyo changed something at its factory in Japan which resulted in the reek, I'm even more disappointed. There's no doubt in my mind that some odiferous constituent was added to certain plastic parts which precipitated the complaints.


...I bought the two holders second-hand, but they are the newer version.
I knew beforehand that they had the smell, and they are 8x10 holders.

As of today, I can't smell anything until my nose is pressed up to the holders, so some progress has been made.OK, whatever "new version" means with respect to Toyo 8x10 holders (other than perhaps blue lettering), I've only dealt with one sample that stunk and sent it back for a refund. That was in late 2004. See post#7, where I described it as being indistinguishable from my older 8x10 Toyo holders. It had metal dark slides, just like the earlier ones. And it reeked. So the smell had to have been coming from the main holder body.

In post #18, I describe the two 4x5 Toyo holders purchased new in 2008 which reeked as well. I kept them, placed them in tissue paper to prevent dust accumulation and stored them in our garage, which, due to building code requirements, has upper and lower vent grates on an outside wall. In other words, it's continuously ventilated by natural convection, and is for all intents and purposes "outside." These holder differ from my original set (which did have blue lettering, by the way) inasmuch as their dark slides are textured rather than the older smooth, glossy plastic. I stored the holders separate from the slides.

In post #21 (August 2013) I reported that there was no diminution of the 4x5s' smell. That same month, in post #26, I explained how products claiming to "eliminate" odors really don't; rather they simply attempt masking them. For those whose olfactory sensitivity is high, this typically just makes matters worse.

A check just now of the 4x5 Toyo holders in my long-term garage test reveals that, at our current 44% RH, after removing them from their tissue paper wrapping, I can detect no smell from the holder bodies. The slides, however, reek even with tissue paper covering undisturbed. Unfortunately, much of the last week has been in the 15 - 20% RH range, but I wasn't thinking about this matter until humidity began to climb. It's still a pretty good bet that, after eight years, the culprit is those slides, and the main holder bodies were victims. That it required so long for the stench to dissipate after slides were removed should be a warning about how strong whatever VOC causes this might be and engender caution about leaving film loaded for any length of time.

Good luck Ari. My suggestion is to get some new 8x10 Chamonix holders. If I didn't have all the (individually selected for T-depth) 8x10 Fidelity holders I can use, that's what I would do.

Ari
21-Apr-2016, 18:53
Interesting; thank you, Sal.

So, what you're saying is the holder "body" will lose its stink after an airing-out period, and the sheaths are to blame for the odour; additionally, the sheaths will likely never lose their bad smell.

My last resort, based on your findings, will be to set the slides in a bath of milk, then a bath of baking soda/water. If the slides can be "cured" this way, then maybe the whole holder can get to the point where the smell is manageable, even tolerable, up close. There's little risk in doing that to the sheaths, I'm not immersing light traps in milk, and new/used sheaths can be found.

At this point I have nothing to lose; the holders are ok, as I previously reported, but not ok enough that I'd leave them in my camera bag, or want to forget one in my camera back. While they are no longer repulsive to my olfactory senses, they do still emit something, and I don't want that transmitted to any other gear.

And thanks for the Chamonix suggestion, but I'll be sticking with Toyos, despite this episode. They've always served me very well, and I wouldn't trust any other film holder to be as consistently excellent.

B.S.Kumar
21-Apr-2016, 18:56
Well, I've lived in Bombay, and now Japan, both of which are humid, so maybe my nose isn't as sensitive as those of people who live in drier climates and/or have sommelier's noses, but what can I say. I bow to your superior nose :)

My understanding is that Toyo outsources the holders to a Japanese supplier, and does not make them. Also, they seem to be aware of the problem that were caused 10~15 years ago. So if your holders were bought new at that time (2004 and 2008), yes, they would smell. But currently produced holders do not smell. The new holders I offer are from current production. See post #94.

Almost all stores are airconditioned, so equipment does tend to be stored in far better conditions than the average home. All my equipment is stored in humidity controlled dry boxes. and I run the airconditioner in summer and the rainy season.

Just a thought, but is it possible that if the holders are stored in plastic bags, the plasticizers in the bags and the holders get concentrated? The Japanese way of storing valuables is to wrap them in a soft washi paper and keep them in a container made of paulownia wood. Paulownia wood has anti-bacterial properties. Perhaps I should add washi paper and paulownia boxes to my list of Japanese items. Thanks for planting the idea, Sal!

Kumar

B.S.Kumar
21-Apr-2016, 19:01
I'm a little confused. Sal says an 8x10 holder with metal slides had the smell, then later he says the darkslides smelled and the holder bodies were victims. Toyo themselves say the darkslides were the problem. Sal no longer has the holder with the metal slide...

Kumar

Sal Santamaura
22-Apr-2016, 07:33
...you're saying is the holder "body" will lose its stink after an airing-out period, and the sheaths are to blame for the odour...No, please re-read what I wrote.

The only 8x10 reeking holder I "experienced" was back in 2004 and had metal dark slides (not "sheaths"). Those metal dark slides weren't the source of the smell. As noted, I returned that holder for a refund, so couldn't say how long it might take for separately stored metal dark slides to "air out," but expect it would be very quick, since they're non-porous, unlike the plastic dark slides of 4x5 Toyo holders.


...the sheaths will likely never lose their bad smell...Again, your 8x10 Toyo dark slides (I assume) are metal and, if stored separately, would likely lose their bad smell rather quickly. The main holder body, however, is the smell's source, and it will likely never lose its bad smell.


...At this point...the holders are ok, as I previously reported, but not ok enough that I'd leave them in my camera bag, or want to forget one in my camera back. While they are no longer repulsive to my olfactory senses, they do still emit something, and I don't want that transmitted to any other gear...Please re-read the post I referred to concerning relative humidity (RH). Looking at RH records for Ottawa over the last few days I see you've gone from readings in the teens up to near 100% right now. I suspect there's been absolutely no change in your holders' offgassing whatsoever; instead, your ability to smell them has diminished radically as the RH skyrocketed. The next time RH falls (think all winter when the heat is running), expect to be holding your nose again. Also, I'd still be wary of putting film near the holders, whether human olfaction can detect the problem at a given time or not.


,,,I'll be sticking with Toyos, despite this episode. They've always served me very well, and I wouldn't trust any other film holder to be as consistently excellent.I agree with respect to older, non-reeking Toyo holders. However, have you used any reeking Toyo holders? Did they "serve you well" in terms of potential negative effects on film? If so, enjoy. If not, please let us know how it goes in the future with "the stinkers."

Sal Santamaura
22-Apr-2016, 07:57
Well, I've lived in Bombay, and now Japan, both of which are humid, so maybe my nose isn't as sensitive as those of people who live in drier climates and/or have sommelier's noses, but what can I say. I bow to your superior nose..While I admit to being more sensitive than the average person to smells, please don't interpret what I've posted as any claim to "superiority." Your (i.e. Kumar's) ability to detect an odor, regardless of how it may fall on the scale of human olfaction, will vary radically depending on relative humidity (RH) at any given moment. Take a trip to the desert and you'll find that an aroma you can't detect at all in Bombay or Japan is suddenly incredibly intense.


...My understanding is that Toyo outsources the holders to a Japanese supplier, and does not make them. Also, they seem to be aware of the problem that were caused 10~15 years ago. So if your holders were bought new at that time (2004 and 2008), yes, they would smell...Do you know whether Toyo ever made its holders itself? Or was holder part molding always outsourced?


...So if your holders were bought new at that time (2004 and 2008), yes, they would smell. But currently produced holders do not smell...To what does Toyo attribute the "improvement?" Did it levy an additional "non-stink" requirement on its outsourced holder supplier after the problem became apparent during that time frame? Change suppliers? Or? Inquiring mind wants to know.

I own all the Toyo holders, both 4x5 and 8x10, I can use. Having retired and no longer being able to afford experiments conducted out of idle curiosity, I'm not willing to purchase additional new Toyo holders now just to see whether they smell. Ideally, one of our members who lives in a desert climate should order one or more brand new ones and share her/his "sniff test" results (under low-RH conditions) here.


I'm a little confused. Sal says an 8x10 holder with metal slides had the smell, then later he says the darkslides smelled and the holder bodies were victims. Toyo themselves say the darkslides were the problem. Sal no longer has the holder with the metal slide...To repeat: the 8x10 holder main body, not the metal dark slides, is where that holder's smell originated. It was the pair of 4x5 holders' dark slides that stunk up those holder bodies. In other words, 8x10 Toyo bodies and 4x5 Toyo dark slides contained the reeking constituent(s).

dpn
22-Apr-2016, 12:25
I have a new set of 4x5 Toyo holders on the way from B&H. After reading this thread, I can't wait to smell them.

Sal Santamaura
22-Apr-2016, 16:41
I have a new set of 4x5 Toyo holders on the way from B&H. After reading this thread, I can't wait to smell them.I look forward to you posting your observations in this thread. Please let us know whether the dark slides are smooth-glossy or textured-matt.

Annual average relative humidity records for Sacramento show afternoon lows around 30% in June through August. That should be dry enough to reveal whether the plastic now used by Toyo's vendor has been changed for the better. :)

biedron
23-Apr-2016, 17:08
I recently purchased a new Toyo 8x10 holder through Kumar. According to my wife, it does not reek. (I would concur, but have a poor sense of smell so I'm not a good "witness")

Bob

dpn
12-May-2016, 12:22
My new holders arrived. :-)

In my opinion, the holders have a moderately strong plasticky smell. It's a very long way from "reeking," although it's certainly noticeable at a little distance. 40% humidity in my office as I type.

The darkslides aren't glossy -- much closer to matte/luster.