The value of large format cameras

[Joseph O'Neil]

If anyone ever doubted the true value of large format cameras in relation to other cameras, look at these numbers from the government of Canada official surplus sales page:

used film Nikon with lens- $100
https://www.gcsurplus.ca/mn-eng.cfm?snc=wfsav&sc=enc-bid&scn=87034&lcn=231111&lct=L&srchtype=&lci=&str=21&ltnf=1&frmsr=1&sf=ferm-clos

used DGITIAL Nikon SLRs, with NO lens 15 of them - $300 for all of them

https://www.gcsurplus.ca/mn-eng.cfm?snc=wfsav&sc=enc-bid&scn=86197&lcn=230273&lct=L&srchtype=&lci=&str=1&ltnf=1&frmsr=1&sf=ferm-clos


used MF Hassleblad with lens - $150

https://www.gcsurplus.ca/mn-eng.cfm?snc=wfsav&sc=enc-bid&scn=86391&lcn=230476&lct=L&srchtype=&lci=&str=11&ltnf=1&frmsr=1&sf=ferm-clos

another used Hassy with more accessories - $250

https://www.gcsurplus.ca/mn-eng.cfm?snc=wfsav&sc=enc-bid&scn=86390&lcn=230474&lct=L&srchtype=&lci=&str=1&ltnf=1&frmsr=1&sf=ferm-clos

and then....

Used large format Lindhof, 4x5 sheet film camera with one lens - minimum bid starting at $1,500.00

https://www.gcsurplus.ca/mn-eng.cfm?snc=wfsav&sc=enc-bid&scn=86093&lcn=230177&lct=L&srchtype=&lci=&str=21&ltnf=1&frmsr=1&sf=ferm-clos

So, for all those "naysayers' out there - not that we have any on this forum ( :D ) - if we assume actions speak louder than words, what does all that tell you about the value of your LF gear?

:)

[darr]

Joseph, the auction ad on my end reads:

(Minimum Bid: 1,500.00)

1 (lot(s))
Description:
Linhof Cameras and Accessories

(1) Linhof camera, model: Technika 4 x 5
Series: 2151063 (with accessories -please see photos)

(1) Linhof Studio camera, model: Kardan-Master 4 x 5 (L-System), Series: 6821112.
with accessories (small lenses, protective, framing etc.) please see photos.

(1) Linhof lens, Technika Sironar Rodenstock 1:5.6, f = 150mm Series: 9216458.

(1) Linhof lens, Technika Luminar 1:6,3 Series: 4618743.

(2) Lindhof Super Rollex 56 x 72 , series: 1155144, 1151641.

(1)Lindhof Cine Rollex 56 x 72, series: 1441114.

(1) Linhof Viewfinder

*** Serviceable, may require repairs ***

Linhof Cameras and Accessories

That is more than one camera and one lens!

[Ed Kelsey]

It's a pittance compared to digital.

[Jay DeFehr]

Joe,

I'm afraid those links don't tell us much; too small a sample size. The Linhof lot includes two cameras and at least two lenses, by the way.

A used Leica camera recently sold at auction (http://www.theverge.com/2011/10/30/2525406/tamarkin-camera-auction-closes-hemingways-leica-yields-25k-leica-gun) for $100,000

Here's (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Michael-Yons-Canon-EOS-1Ds-Mark-III-21-1-MP-Digital-SLR-Camera-/300630269582?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item45fef5de8e#ht_500wt_1156) a used DSLR for $10,000.

Here's (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hasselblad-903SWC-w-Biogon-T-CF-38mm-f-4-5-A12-903-SWC-/250807197823?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item3a6546207f#ht_15880wt_1160) a used Hassy for $5,000+.

And you can get a brand new 4x5 field camera (http://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=120) for less than $800.

What does this tell us about the relative value of different kinds of cameras? Not much-- too small a sample size.

[Ben Syverson]

Linhof is overrated anyway. Linhof is what Leica shooters buy when they move into LF because they're so used to the idea of an expensive "best" brand. In reality, an inexpensive Super Graphic beats a Technika in every way that matters.

[Corran]

Different cameras for different needs...I have digital, 35mm, MF, LF...maybe ULF someday...

I just make pictures so what do I know.

[Letoco]

Linhof is overrated anyway. Linhof is what Leica shooters buy when they move into LF because they're so used to the idea of an expensive "best" brand. In reality, an inexpensive Super Graphic beats a Technika in every way that matters.

Right. Provided that very little from large format photography matters for you. :-)

[Frank Petronio]

Linhof is overrated anyway. Linhof is what Leica shooters buy when they move into LF because they're so used to the idea of an expensive "best" brand. In reality, an inexpensive Super Graphic beats a Technika in every way that matters.

Maybe you should actually try a Linhof before you insult a lot of good photographers?

Not that this thread deserves deep thinking, likely the OP was only making a wry assertion.

[Ben Syverson]

No insult intended to any Linhof shooters—I'm sure they're great machines. I've only played with one in a store, so what do I know!

[E. von Hoegh]

Linhof is overrated anyway. Linhof is what Leica shooters buy when they move into LF because they're so used to the idea of an expensive "best" brand. In reality, an inexpensive Super Graphic beats a Technika in every way that matters.

Really? Perhaps you'd care to list all those ways. I don't think you know what you're talking about.

[Frank Petronio]

Yeah I thought I was the one to make obnoxious insults here ;-p

One of the nice things about a Technika is that you can hang a really long lens off of it and remains more rigid than anything else in its size-weight class. Graphics are great cameras too but not as versatile.

[Ben Syverson]

Haha...

Interesting about long lenses—I hadn't considered that. Any other big pluses for the Linhof? As far as I can tell the movements are comparable to a Super...

[E. von Hoegh]

Haha...

Interesting about long lenses—I hadn't considered that. Any other big pluses for the Linhof? As far as I can tell the movements are comparable to a Super...

As far as you can tell?
Nevermind.

[Frank Petronio]

It has back swing and tilt, front rise/shift/swing, 16" of extension, a large system of accessories, and much more usable and effective rangefinder. Not to mention it is probably the most rugged and well-made 4x5 camera you can find.

It might not suit your specific needs but it is a great all-arounder.

[Bruce Watson]

If anyone ever doubted the true value of large format cameras in relation to other cameras...

Wait -- you think the value of LF is about money?

To me, the value of LF shows itself in many ways, the very least of which is money. LF for me is about having a tool that is flexible and controllable enough that I can more easily realize my artistic vision. I'm in LF because I can't do what I want to do with lesser cameras.

If it's only about money, you might want to rethink what you're doing. Just sayin'.

[Vaughn]

Along the same lines, any camera increases in value the more it is used...you just may not be able to resell it for as much as a "minty". :D

[Brian Ellis]

If anyone ever doubted the true value of large format cameras in relation to other cameras, look at these numbers from the government of Canada official surplus sales page:

used film Nikon with lens- $100
https://www.gcsurplus.ca/mn-eng.cfm?snc=wfsav&sc=enc-bid&scn=87034&lcn=231111&lct=L&srchtype=&lci=&str=21&ltnf=1&frmsr=1&sf=ferm-clos

used DGITIAL Nikon SLRs, with NO lens 15 of them - $300 for all of them

https://www.gcsurplus.ca/mn-eng.cfm?snc=wfsav&sc=enc-bid&scn=86197&lcn=230273&lct=L&srchtype=&lci=&str=1&ltnf=1&frmsr=1&sf=ferm-clos


used MF Hassleblad with lens - $150

https://www.gcsurplus.ca/mn-eng.cfm?snc=wfsav&sc=enc-bid&scn=86391&lcn=230476&lct=L&srchtype=&lci=&str=11&ltnf=1&frmsr=1&sf=ferm-clos

another used Hassy with more accessories - $250

https://www.gcsurplus.ca/mn-eng.cfm?snc=wfsav&sc=enc-bid&scn=86390&lcn=230474&lct=L&srchtype=&lci=&str=1&ltnf=1&frmsr=1&sf=ferm-clos

and then....

Used large format Lindhof, 4x5 sheet film camera with one lens - minimum bid starting at $1,500.00

https://www.gcsurplus.ca/mn-eng.cfm?snc=wfsav&sc=enc-bid&scn=86093&lcn=230177&lct=L&srchtype=&lci=&str=21&ltnf=1&frmsr=1&sf=ferm-clos

So, for all those "naysayers' out there - not that we have any on this forum ( :D ) - if we assume actions speak louder than words, what does all that tell you about the value of your LF gear?

:)

It tells me that LF gear is dirt cheap. Used Canon 1Ds MarkIII cameras are now selling in the $5000+ range. Even used 5DIIs sell for about $2,000.

[Brian Ellis]

Linhof is overrated anyway. Linhof is what Leica shooters buy when they move into LF because they're so used to the idea of an expensive "best" brand. In reality, an inexpensive Super Graphic beats a Technika in every way that matters.

Absolutely true - as long as price is all that matters.

[Andrew O'Neill]

My 14x17 camera is worth $102 'cause I made it myself. By the way, I owned a tech IV and V. I made some lovely images with them. Kind of sad that I parted with the V (had the IV stolen).

[Ben Syverson]

Okay, so I'm totally wrong. :) I forgot about the rear movements!

[E. von Hoegh]

Okay, so I'm totally wrong. :) I forgot about the rear movements!

As well as the rotating back, the interchangeable RF cams, the incomparable build quality, the range of lenses, accessories, etc., etc..

[Ash]

I use my LF gear like it won't be worth anything in the future.

[Frank Petronio]

Once Kodak stops making color film, the prices of all this stuff will start to decline.

What is strange to me is that I bet there are very few vintage "collectible" LF cameras in mint condition. They almost all have been used.

What would an unused, pre-WW2 Deardorff or a late 1940s Sinar Standard be worth?

[Brian C. Miller]

A while back a sheriff's office in California put an unused Graflex Super Graphic up for bid on eBay. It was genuine new-old stock. It went for nearly the price of a new Toyo 45AX.

[Corran]

Once Kodak stops making color film, the prices of all this stuff will start to decline.

Gosh I hope not.

As we continue to see larger digital sensors I personally believe there will be a market for these cameras/lenses for use on them. At least I hope so.

[Frank Petronio]

I doubt the larger sensors will ever need to be anywhere near 4x5 inches large as already the results from smaller than 6x4.5cm medium format digital back sensors are competitive, if not better than, the best film scans. It just doesn't seem economically viable unless somebody creates some magic new way to make sensors....

And then, with such an amazing sensor, you'll really need a very fine micro-geared camera, as the medium format digital view cameras have evolved into. Your old 4x5 won't cut as-is.

[Ben Syverson]

As well as the rotating back, the interchangeable RF cams, the incomparable build quality, the range of lenses, accessories, etc., etc..
The Super has a rotating back and interchangeable RF cams...

[Corran]

Isn't that what they said about APS-C sized digital sensors from Nikon/Canon? Who knows what we may see sometime in the future.

And I don't think Kodak's ability to make color film or not is the sole decision maker. I think it would have to be Kodak, Ilford, and Fuji ALL not making ANY film before people really started dumping the 4x5's like crazy. Which will hopefully never happen.

[J. Fada]

When film is gone people will still want to make images of an organic nature and we have already seen this with resurgence of wet plate photographs. Large format black and white film should be around for quite a long time but I am afraid color film won't last that much longer. I don't shoot much color sheet film but I feel it will be a sad day when it is gone. Whether or not we see a digital sensor being economically feasible at the 4x5 size who knows, but with the miniaturization and efficiency of sensors I doubt it.

[domaz]

Joe,


Here's (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Michael-Yons-Canon-EOS-1Ds-Mark-III-21-1-MP-Digital-SLR-Camera-/300630269582?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item45fef5de8e#ht_500wt_1156) a used DSLR for $10,000.


This didn't sell, and seriously he was trying to sell his own DSLR camera for "historical" value? Seems a little bit conceded if you ask me.

[Jay DeFehr]

There are potential digital replacements for LF film that don't rely on scaling up current technology imaging sensors. The more I think about the job we hire LF film to do, the more I think that job is to allow LF photographers to use their cameras, as opposed to collecting more image information, or making bigger prints, neither of which require LF equipment. I think the LF community should reassess its imaging requirements on more practical terms. Instead of listing the ways in which LF is superior to smaller formats, in excruciating mathematical detail, we should take advantage of some of those mathematical advantages to develop a use-appropriate technology that could keep us using these cameras. If we begin with very humble demands, we'll be rewarded by all the advantages of an evolving technology, instead of perpetually bemoaning a dying one. The first digital cameras were not very good, compared to film cameras, but they were good enough to evolve into a technology that has all but replaced film. If something like printed sensor technology can provide a device we can use in our LF equipment to make good enough images-- not perfect, but good enough-- that technology could evolve into one that takes the lumps out of our throats at film's funeral.