Adox Papers

[false_Aesthetic]

Heyo,

Can someone break down the differences between the Adox VC fiber papers?

I've used the MCC 110 but not the Fine Print or Variotone.

Fine Print is triple weight vs the double weight MCC. Variotone is warm toned. That's the stuff I get.

But does anyone want to give their subjective opinions of the stuff?

Thanks

[Doremus Scudder]

I use Adox Nuance graded papers. Love them. Nice hint of eggplant when lightly toned in selenium and a nice bright white paper base. Rich mid-tones with lots of separation.

Best

Doremus

P.S: Sorry for the triple post! Seems my browser or the connection are doing strange things today. I'll delete 'em.

[Peter Latner]

I haven't used the Fine Print (it requires a red filter instead of OC, a deal-breaker for me), but I've used the MCC110 and the Variotone; they're both terrific.

The MCC110 is supposedly the replacement for Agfa Multicontrast Classic. However, it's got a cooler tone and a whiter base. To my eye, it's the perfect middle ground between warm-tone and cold-tone papers. It's very easy to print with, but tends to need slightly higher contrast filters than other VC papers. No question--it's a very good paper.

The Variotone is my choice between the two, because I like the warmer tone of it. It's almost indistinguishable to me from the Bergger Warm Tone paper (VCCB). The Bergger warm-tone and and Variotone are the best papers I've ever used. Part of that has to do with their long scale and ease of printing, the rest of it has to do with their color. I like to use warm-tone papers that I cool with selenium toner and Sprint optical brightener--very subjective, of course, but that's the look I go for.

Sorry to digress. To sum up, they're both excellent--MCC is more neutral in color, Variotone is warmer, and more expensive.

[false_Aesthetic]

Thanks bro

[Arne Croell]

It's almost indistinguishable to me from the Bergger Warm Tone paper (VCCB).

That might be due to the fact they are both made by Ilford.....

[Renato Tonelli]

That might be due to the fact they are both made by Ilford.....

Found this out the hard way. I really liked the older version of Bergger Warm Tone.

[brytracy]

The current issue of View Camera has a nice comparison between many of the papers available from freestyle now.

[Roger Cole]

That might be due to the fact they are both made by Ilford.....

Really? How do they compare with Ilford MGWT FB?

My two standard papers for FB are MCC 110 for neutral tones and Ilford MGWT for warm. The Adox Variotone is slightly less expensive than the Ilford - from Freestyle anyway and though other places are cheaper for paper it often saves enough shipping to order from one place and get it with the rest of my Freestyle order.

[Peter Latner]

It's true that Bergger and Adox are making their papers in England, at the Ilford facility, although there are small differences between what seem to be the big three of the warm-tone fiber world: Variotone, Begger VCCB, and Ilford MGWT.

What really strikes me about all this is how many great variable-contrast fiber-base printing papers there are today. I think the quality and selection is better than it was in the 80s, and certainly the 90s. I can't explain why, but I'm grateful.

[Roger Cole]

Freestyle lists the country of origin and does indeed show Variotone as made in England, but MCC 110 as made in Germany.

[Arne Croell]

Freestyle lists the country of origin and does indeed show Variotone as made in England, but MCC 110 as made in Germany.

Yes, MCC is made in Germany by Inoviscoat (former Agfa engineers, http://www.inoviscoat.de/en/) for Adox on a former Agfa coating machine. The main difference to Agfa MCC 111 is the base color. Variotone is made by Ilford.

[Eric Rose]

I have been struggling with ADOX fine print glossy FB. Extreme lack of contrast.

[Peter Latner]

Eric--
Are you giving the prints enough development? Freestyle says 2-3 minutes minimum.

And you're using only red safelights?

[Eric Rose]

Hi Peter. Yes in both cases. I have given it up to 4 min's in fresh Dektol 1:2. The paper is not fogged either. I am VERY disappointed in this paper however the bunch over on FADU think I might have a bad box. Sucks cuz it's a 100 sheet box. I have tried using max magenta filtration, blue filtration and Ilford's grade 5 filter. Still lacking in contrast. I have also tried giving it LOTS of exposure as well. Still flat. It's not like I am a rookie at this as I have done professional printing for many years. In any case I will use it for low contrast contact sheets or maybe Lith.

[Bruce Osgood]

I agree with Eric on this, the paper has been a disappointment to me also. I'm developing in LPD 1+1 or Ansco 130 for three minutes plus 1 min water bath. I've exposed with white light for 1:15 and burned some areas for another 1:15 and still no contrast. The entire pack of 11X14 has a black mark in one corner when processed and in some cases the emulsion chips off the edge. I bought it from Freestyle.

[Peter Latner]

That's truly disappointing. No question the paper's defective. I hope you've both contacted Freestyle and told them you want to return it. Hard to believe they wouldn't stand behind a product for which they're the sole U.S. distributor.

[Bruce Osgood]

That's truly disappointing. No question the paper's defective. I hope you've both contacted Freestyle and told them you want to return it. Hard to believe they wouldn't stand behind a product for which they're the sole U.S. distributor.

Quite frankly, it is easier for me to change papers without the hassles of complaining to Freestyle and going through that process. At least I've got B&H and Adorama a few subway stops away.

[al olson]

Yes, MCC is made in Germany by Inoviscoat (former Agfa engineers, http://www.inoviscoat.de/en/) for Adox on a former Agfa coating machine. The main difference to Agfa MCC 111 is the base color. Variotone is made by Ilford.

Is there a relationship between Inoviscoat and PhotoIMPEX? It was my understanding that PhotoIMPEX bought the Agfa test coating equipment and hired former Agfa engineers. Didn't PhotoIMPEX also acquire the Adox trademark?

[Arne Croell]

Is there a relationship between Inoviscoat and PhotoIMPEX? It was my understanding that PhotoIMPEX bought the Agfa test coating equipment and hired former Agfa engineers. Didn't PhotoIMPEX also acquire the Adox trademark?

Yes, Fotoimpex bought the test coater and test emulsion making containers from the Agfa Photo bankruptcy, and they own the ADOX trade name.
Inoviscoat is a separate company in Monheim, formed by Agfa engineers, and they make all kinds of products that need coating (http://www.inoviscoat.de/en/). Fotoimpex' test coater in Bad Saarow allows only a 24cm wide coating, and their emulsion container is only 40 liters. The Inoviscoat coater, nicknamed "Phoenix", is 105cm wide, it is a former Agfa production machine. The MCC 110 emulsion is also made there in larger batches than the Fotoimpex machines allow. It is my understanding that Inoviscoat and Fotoimpex were certainly cooperating on the development of the MCC110 and other products.

(All of these informations are from the German Fotoimpex darkroom forum web site)

[Eric Woodbury]

I printed with Variotone this weekend. I love the coloration, but it hit a wall on contrast. I tried to get it to go up from 3 to 3.5 to 4 and even 5. After 3.5, I didn't see any change in contrast. It may have actually come back a bit (less than the 3.5). Very odd.

I'm not seeing fogging. I'm developing 3 min in Legacy Pro Eco whatever. A good basic developer that I've used successfully with other papers. I will write Freestyle but I expect to move to a different paper for higher contrast work.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

I get confused easily so I just tested these myself:

papers: Ilford 'MG Art 300' and Adox 'Fine Print Vario Classic' fresh from Freestyle.

developer: fresh PF Ansco 130 1+2, 75f, 3 min
water bath 75f, 1 min
fixer: fresh PF TF-5, 75f, 2 min
washed and dried overnight

enlarger: Beseler 23C-III, hot-rodded condensor head, micro CFL bulbs 3500K and 6500K, 13W - 120V

filters: Ilford multicontrast (with CFL the filter factor is 2 stops for all grades)

contact print Stouffer's TP 4x5 step wedge.

**************************
Adox
3500K no filter = 10 steps
3500K #0 filter = 12 steps
3500K #5 filter = 7 steps
6500K #5 filter = 7 steps (1 stop faster)

Ilford
3500K no filter = 8 steps
3500K #0 filter = 10 steps
3500K #5 filter = 6 steps
6500K #5 filter = 7 steps (1 stop faster)

Either someone got a bad batch or used the wrong developer.

They make the instant-on micro CFL's in 2600K, 2900K, 3500K, 5000K, and 6500K. With 2 stops of lose with the filters, I'll just change the bulbs to change contrast. Now I need to try the Adox with 2600K #00 filter to see just how far it can go soft. :eek:

[Eric Woodbury]

My paper is a little over a year old and was not in cold storage, although not abused either. I have new stock coming tomorrow and I shall test the difference and report.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

"Now I need to try the Adox with 2600K #00 filter to see just how far it can go soft."

Back again, same as above:

Adox
2700K no filter = 12 steps
2700K 00 filter = 16 steps
6500K no filter = 8 steps

filters are losing 0 - 3 stops exposure, they're made for incandesent lamps not CFL.
2700K + 00 extra steps are muddy, all in the darkest range, no real increase in the highlights, better to use the bare bulb for 2700K.
Will start with 3500K and change from there.

Yes, micro-mini CFL bulbs work well in an enlarger IF the head has a diffuser plate installed. :eek:

[Eric Woodbury]

Order and printed on new stock of Variotone. It is definitely more contrasty than the older stock with the #5 filter in place. I guess I need to print more and put the excess stock in the fridge.