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macmx
24-Nov-2011, 15:30
Anyone have experience with the Ebony RSW45?

I am looking to get my first LF kit. The candidates are the ShenHao HZX45 (cheap), Toyo 45 AII (better quality, more movements) and Ebony RSW45 (superior quality).

I will mainly be doing landscape and portrait with lenses up to 180mm. I am not looking for a lot of movements, but want to move to LF from MF to get higher quality negatives.

Right now, I am really hooked on the Ebony. It seems to be the perfect camera for me, great materials and at almost the same price as the Toyo, the Toyo is no competition, unless I am convinced that I need more movements or a folding camera.

I would be very interested in any comments on the RSW, as well as any general comments on moving from MF til LF. I mainly have experience with Hasselblad V, Flexbody, SWC and Leica M cameras. Thanks.

Mc.

Gary Tarbert
24-Nov-2011, 16:13
The Ebony was on my wishlist as well ,Finally settled on a Chamonix , These cameras are perfect for landscape lightweight but well built , They use carbon fibre which keeps the weight down but has strength.
I liked it so much i now have two of them a Chamonix 5x8 & the 45n-2 the 5x8 i use as my main camera which i have a 5x4 reducing back for and the 5x4 is for when i am going on long treks and i just need to keep weight and size down . The cameras are made in China if you go too their website just google Chamonix camera it should come up .
Hugo the owner of the company is very good to deal with replies to emails promptly and delivers when promised , I finished up buying my 2 Chamonix cameras plus film holders reducing back sinar to Linhof reduction board etc for about the same as the Ebony Body only . Good luck with your search ,Oh! BTW of the three you mentioned i would have the Ebony . Regards Gary

Steve Hamley
24-Nov-2011, 17:11
Most of the landscape photographers I've known used the RW45 folding camera. It's light, versatile, and conventionally designed. Some now use the Chamonix, and it is a well made light camera also. To me, the difference is in your personal preference for camera controls.

180mm is only very slightly long on 4x5 and still falls within the range of normal focal lengths. If you do want to go long, the RSW45 may limit you. The lack of back movements could also limit you if you need a little more movement than the front will allow with a given lens.

Other than that, I think the RSW45 is a good choice.

Cheers, Steve

Gem Singer
24-Nov-2011, 17:24
I have owned/operated all three of the cameras you mentioned.

The Toyo is a metal folding flatbed camera, and the Shen Hao and Ebony are wooden folding flatbed cameras.

The Ebony RW45 (couldn't find an RSW45 on the Ebony website) is an entry level camera. RW stands for Robert White. It was made to be sold at Robert White's price point. The early RW45 that I owned was not built as nice as Ebony's higher priced cameras. I have also owned an Ebony SV45te.

The Toyo 45AII is their top of the line metal folding flatbed camera. The Toyo 45AX is the same exact camera without the rotating back and folding focusing hood. Sells for less than the 45AII. Those two accessories can be purchased separately and added to the 45AX.

The Shen Hao offers the most movement capability for the money. I didn't think much of the early Shen Hao build quality, but it has improved. Of course, the price has also increased

Edward (Halifax,NS)
24-Nov-2011, 17:35
The Ebony will use a 180mm lens but only near infinity. You will need more extension if you want to use the 180mm lens for portraits. The 45S would be a suitable camera but it is twice the price.

Bill_1856
24-Nov-2011, 19:58
That's an awfully expensive way to get into Large Format.

John NYC
24-Nov-2011, 20:02
You might think you only want normal and wide now, but you might change. 180mm is like a 50mm lens on 35mm format (slightly long normal). You might find a 210mm, a 240mm even a 300mm the better choice for your portraits.

Why spend so much on your first camera. Buy a user camera for cheap ($200-400?) and then dump it later for little loss once you settle in more.

Frank Petronio
24-Nov-2011, 20:36
A Toyo A-series is a really nice, versatile metal camera.

And if you happen to drop it, it won't be ruined.

It's the more conservative choice - a "middle of the road" camera and more easily traded. So, after some experience, you decide that you want to go ultra-light or need something more rugged or to have more movements, you'll have a good foundation with decent camera to make comparisons and informed choices.

My experience with people who start out with limited, delicate wooden cameras is that they get roped into thinking that they are the only way to experience large-format. Movements are less obvious, the set-up takes longer, the controls are more dainty and frail. They spend way too long fussing with their cameras than actually photographing. But that's just my highly biased personal opinion garnered from experience, it doesn't trump internet banter and peer pressure ;-p

Wooden cameras are beautiful. Tell me if you would like a wooden Hasselblad?

http://files.petapixel.com/assets/uploads/2011/03/nasahassy.jpg

Lachlan 717
24-Nov-2011, 20:45
Get the Shen and spend the difference on good glass.

You'll see the difference if you do this; I doubt that you'll see it if you buy the more expensive camera.

richard brown
24-Nov-2011, 21:56
I gather that the Shen has improved its product quality and it does get good reviews. I have a toyo 45A and as Frank says,it is a great metal (yet fairly light) field camera which I have always found easy to use. And then I bought an Ebony RW45, the basic folding mahogany field camera .... it was great except I couldn't use my really wide lenses.... sold it and got an ebony 45S. Love the camera.. it is the best... but now I do more 617 panos so bought a canham and am thinking/wrestling with the idea of selling or keeping the ebony 45S.
Best advice is get a camera you love and buy some good glass as Lachlan says.

Ivan J. Eberle
24-Nov-2011, 22:15
In 4x5, lens choice will have much more impact on the final image than camera choice. So it's better, I think, to determine first what glass you need and work it backwards from there to find what camera works best. Lens fit can be a big issue with folders and field cameras, generally less so with cameras having interchangeable bellows.
And personally, I like folding metal cameras that can be zero'd out quickly, with infinity stops for snappy deployment. A well adjusted rangefinder can also be most useful when the light is changing rapidly.

Henry Ambrose
24-Nov-2011, 22:16
The SW45 or RSW45 is a great choice. Go for the SW if it fits your budget as the front swing adds some versatility. It'll let you do full length portraits with a 180 or 150. If you don't use anything longer than 180, its the camera to buy.

Very simple and straightforward to use, very light and plenty robust. Its probably the fastest to set-up LF camera you will find. (short of rangefinder press cameras you can handhold) Put on a Q.R. plate and click it on the tripod. No unfolding, no messing around with bellows you don't need for wide to normal lenses.

If you can make all the pictures that interest you with a 50 and wider on 35mm or 80 and wider on your Hassy you'll like this camera.

Steve M Hostetter
24-Nov-2011, 22:24
I got a used RSW45 .... MINT pm me if interested

cjbroadbent
25-Nov-2011, 00:30
As Henry says, the Ebony SW45 is the most ever-ready hassle-free camera. Mine lives with a press shutter 120, rubber lens hood and release ready for anything. It is the only camera I would (could) save in a fire.

macmx
25-Nov-2011, 08:38
Thank you everyone. I have taken note of your comments and consider them in my decision.

Some general comments: I have never bought a film camera that I haven't kept and therefor plan on making the right decision for my LF camera as well, even if this means investing more. If I wasn't attracted by the romantic notions of large format wooden cameras, I would simply shoot something else (digital:confused: ). For me, using a camera that is great quality makes the process more pleasurable and I end up shooting a lot more.

I plan on getting a 150mm and a 80/90mm to start with. I think this is all I will need. I use a single lens for my Leica and two lenses on my Hassy (and one lens on the SWC of course, duh). I am not big on having lots of lenses and accessories. Just give me a wide or standard lens and some filters.

Thanks again for the input.

Steve M Hostetter
25-Nov-2011, 11:51
Hello Marcus,

Just to let the masses here know my feelings on the ebony vs chamonix since I have both..
The ebony when racked out, will rock some from slight play in the focusing rails.. The ebony RSW45 has no handle which sucks since it's not easy to get out of the custom box I made for it.. The ebony is heavier then the chamonix ...
The film seems to fit tighted in the ebony back but has no bearing on light tightness over the chamonix..
The chamonix is very tightly built with no slop and just a bit tighter focusing knob but no need to lock focus..
The chamonix can be used with a 360mm at the longest and even racked out all the way there is no play or slop anywhere in the construction..
I'm guessing the chamonix has plastic knobs but can't tell ... everything else on the camera seems to have quality parts but not the titanium metal componates the ebony uses..
Givin these parameters the chamonix is a better camera for the more demanding shooter ...
Don't get me wrong, the ebony is a nice camera but I think it would be more suited for the digitar lenses and digital backs
The RSW45 is faster to use and set-up in regards to shooting from your car on short notice since you can leave a lens attached at all times and no unfolding involved which I admit has spoiled me somehwhat..!

steve

Gary Tarbert
25-Nov-2011, 17:33
Thank you everyone. I have taken note of your comments and consider them in my decision.

Some general comments: I have never bought a film camera that I haven't kept and therefor plan on making the right decision for my LF camera as well, even if this means investing more. If I wasn't attracted by the romantic notions of large format wooden cameras, I would simply shoot something else (digital:confused: ). For me, using a camera that is great quality makes the process more pleasurable and I end up shooting a lot more.

I plan on getting a 150mm and a 80/90mm to start with. I think this is all I will need. I use a single lens for my Leica and two lenses on my Hassy (and one lens on the SWC of course, duh). I am not big on having lots of lenses and accessories. Just give me a wide or standard lens and some filters.

Thanks again for the input.
I like your lens philosophy when i backpack with my Chamonix 4x5 i take only a 90 a 150 and a very compact 240 the fujinon 240A , This makes for a kit without film holders lighter than the average 35mm shooter , Good luck with your choices . Regards Gary

Noah A
26-Nov-2011, 14:28
If you're a fan of Leicas and Hasselblads (as I am), why not look into a Linhof Technika?

I tend to think that LF is more specialized than other formats. So you may decide later on that you want a camera that can work with longer lenses, or one that can provide more movements, etc. For example, when I shot 35mm I rarely used my 50mm and usually went for a 35mm lens or wider. With 6x6 or 6x7, I never went longer than 80mm. But with 4x5 the 210 is one of my favorite and most-used lenses, and while I don't use my 300mm all that often, I'm sure glad it's there when I need it. That's why some smart people on this forum tend to advise those new to LF to not stress over the choice of their first camera and to not spend too much.

However, if you've done your homework and know you'll like shooting LF, (it's all I shoot for the most part and I love it but it's very different from smaller formats), then just go with your gut.

Like Frank, I think there are huge advantages to metal cameras. They're tough, precise and in many cases cheaper than fancy wooden cameras. A folding field camera like a Wista VX, Horseman 45FA or Toyo A-series will stand up to whatever you can throw at it.

And again, if you're into the feel of a nice metal Leica or 'Blad, you'll probably love a Technika. They have that same feel and build quality and they're a real pleasure to use.

New ones are pricey, but you could get a nice used Tech V or IV or even a Master for the price of a new Ebony. Just figure the cost of a CLA if you buy an older camera. But still, I'd bet that a CLA'd 30-year-old Technika will be more solid and precise than any wooden camera and it will probably last longer, especially if you use it in tough conditions.

Frank Petronio
26-Nov-2011, 14:55
With a Technika, even a 60-year old one, you can mount a heavy 300mm lens in a #3 Copal shutter and extend it out... and it won't move. With the same camera you can mount a 65mm wide angle and shoot by dropping the bed.

But the best thing? You can close it up with a small normal 135-150 lens mounted. Simply open it and you are ready to shoot.

(Wistas and Graphics can carry lens folded as well. Most other cameras can't.)

Linhofs are what Leicas aspire to be when they grow up.

Noah A
26-Nov-2011, 15:09
Yep, my Technika will fold with the 135 Apo-Sironar S, 150 Apo-Sironar S, and even with a 300/9 Apo-Ronar.

My old Wista VX would also fold with the 135 and 150, but I didn't have the Apo-Ronar at the time.

r.e.
26-Nov-2011, 15:35
On the subject of other cameras, someone put an Arca-Swiss Discovery in what is apparently excellent condition in the for sale forum a few days ago. If it's still available, it might be attractive.

Bill_1856
26-Nov-2011, 20:03
Thank you everyone. I have taken note of your comments and consider them in my decision.

Some general comments: I have never bought a film camera that I haven't kept and therefor plan on making the right decision for my LF camera as well, even if this means investing more. If I wasn't attracted by the romantic notions of large format wooden cameras, I would simply shoot something else (digital:confused: ). For me, using a camera that is great quality makes the process more pleasurable and I end up shooting a lot more.

I plan on getting a 150mm and a 80/90mm to start with. I think this is all I will need. I use a single lens for my Leica and two lenses on my Hassy (and one lens on the SWC of course, duh). I am not big on having lots of lenses and accessories. Just give me a wide or standard lens and some filters.

Thanks again for the input.

Good thinking -- an excellent approach as a start.

Ivan J. Eberle
26-Nov-2011, 20:24
With a Technika, even a 60-year old one, you can mount a heavy 300mm lens in a #3 Copal shutter and extend it out... and it won't move. With the same camera you can mount a 65mm wide angle and shoot by dropping the bed.

But the best thing? You can close it up with a small normal 135-150 lens mounted. Simply open it and you are ready to shoot.

(Wistas and Graphics can carry lens folded as well. Most other cameras can't.)

Linhofs are what Leicas aspire to be when they grow up.

Ha! Not only the 135mm, I've got a couple of Meridians that will fold up with a 210mm f/5.6 Caltar IIN (aka APO Sironar N) or Nikon SW90mm f/8 inside, unreversed!:D

The bed drops 90˚ and there's geared focusing on the inner rails. It has synthetic bellows not prone to rotting or pin-holing even after 60 years.

"The Meridian 45CE is what the Linhof Technika would eventually aspire to be (albeit nearly 50 years later)."

Noah A
26-Nov-2011, 20:32
Sounds like a nice camera, Ivan. How much front rise is available on the Meridian?

Ivan J. Eberle
27-Nov-2011, 22:46
Meridians don't have a flap for the rise with short wide angles inside the body, but with a lens on the outer rail I just measured to find there's 2-1/8" rise. That's a fair amount, sufficient to move the horizon from the top to the bottom of the frame when needed, assuming enough IC (which the 210mm Caltar IIN has in spades). Rise inside the body is somewhat restricted; on one of my 2 Meridians I detached the sports finder which is good for about 11/16" internal rise with the 90mm.

georgl
28-Nov-2011, 06:34
Saving money with buying the "good enough" camera

I'm currently fooling around with a Sinar F to test my lenses and workflow.
Ugh, this camera is really sucking me down, everything works fine for a 500€-8x10-cam, but it is no fun!
If the Ebony feels absolutely right to you, take it - don't compromise, IMHO

Besides quality and craftsmanship I have also trouble with the sustainability of the popular Chinese cameras - retail price 50% down and crushing competition but also lowering wages by 90% and increasing profit... Why shouldn't be a worker able to pay for a product he is making himself? Remember, cars don't buy cars...

Nigels
28-Nov-2011, 07:02
Just to add my comment;
The Ebony RSW45 was my first LF camera which I decided upon after reading Joe Cornish's review. I bought it in 2002 and it wasn't until 2010 that I eventually felt a stong enough desire for the additional movements and bellows draw of the excellent 45SU. But I'm still keeping the RSW. I started with a 90mm lens and a 150mm shortly afterwards. For short telephoto I use a 270/f5.5 Tele Arton. I shoot 99% landscapes and like to go backpacking with the camera so its speed and lightness really suit my needs. It has gone with me to summits in Scotland and to the snowline in an Alpine summer. It wasn't cheap but it probably would have been more expensive to get a cheaper camera and then upgrade when I decided I wanted better. Not regretted owning it for a second.
Good luck whatever you choose.
Nigels.

macmx
29-Nov-2011, 08:17
Dear all

Thanks for your comments and helpful insights. I have decided on an RSW and a the 120mm Schneider Apo Symmar L. This setup will be very simple, though movements both with camera and lens will be very limited, just as I like. As stated earlier, I simply want bigger negatives than my MF gear and I want it to be capable for travels. My goal is to work my way up to 8x10 in which case I will promise to buy a camera with plenty of movements and a lens with way more coverage. By that time, the RSW will be well suited as my light travel LF camera and will not overlap with the 8x10. This is the right way forward for me.

Thanks again all of you.

If anyone has experience with the 120mm Symmar L, any input is much appreciated!

Bob McCarthy
29-Nov-2011, 09:11
You do understand the 120mm Schneider Apo Symmar L is really intended for 6x9 and barely covers 4x5 (not much room for movement)!

A Super Symmar in aproximately this FL (110 I believe) would be my recommendation if you have the financial capacity. If you don't, I would buy a Chamonix with the Super Symmar. If you want a 120mm FL, go for the Nikon, it will damn near cover 8x10 at infinity. Not too compact, but plenty sharp.

Camera just keeps it dark, lens projects image on film.

Anyway, just a thought, and this particular 120 is not recommended.

bob

Frank Petronio
29-Nov-2011, 09:32
I just bought Jordan's 120L for 4x5 and while it doesn't allow for much movement, I am figuring it should be fine for most landscapes and considerably sharper, more compact, and less expensive than the alternatives.

Well, at least two out of those three qualities ;-)

Bob McCarthy
29-Nov-2011, 09:53
Seems to me Frank, if your going to use a lens with minimal movement why buy an expensive camera, one which offer movements you will never use, because you "can't".

Many, if not most, begin using a view camera like it were a overgrown medium format camera. Eventually we all get the bigger pictire and buy the appropriate tools.

Hell, OP should just buy a Crown, if movements are not important, and save lots of money.

The Crown will create images every bit as good as an Ebony with this lens, unless the Ebony is just "Camera Jewelry".

bob

Frank Petronio
29-Nov-2011, 11:56
Bob - I followed my own advice, I have a beater Crown and a full-featured monorail. I figure the 120 will stay on the Crown mostly, it should be a nice step up from the Xenar-Optar-Ektars (although they have usually been good lenses for me too).

Bob McCarthy
29-Nov-2011, 12:40
The 120 and the Crown sound like a super combination. Is there anyway to couple the rangefinder to the lens??

I keep looking at the Crowns and the Speeds at local camera shows. One of these days I'm gonna add one for walkabout.

Bob

Frank Petronio
29-Nov-2011, 15:23
I hate adjusting the side-rangefinder Kalharts and can't find a cam for the top rangefinder model. I suppose I could use focusing scales on the bed to calculate distances but instead I just pop a look at the ground glass, knowing what I want to focus on from experience, and quickly focus. It helps to have a 4" deep loupe, like the Toyo Hood Loupe, so you can use the folding metal focusing hood.

macmx
1-Dec-2011, 05:41
Hi all,

Based on your input above and a bit more research, I decided to go with a Rodenstock 135mm Apo Sironar S instead. It is just a bit more expensive, but has better coverage and will allow for more movements. Thanks again.