Really large prints

[David Higgs]

I've been asked to put a proposal for an instillation in a local Museum of Modern Art. I've been advised that they are looking for large Mural size prints - they have a massive hall and wish to have some large centre pieces. I use 4x5 and regularly print pigment prints to 36 inches, but thats the limit that I have got to. These are a mix of epson V750 scans on images that can take it, and some images scanned on a Howtek at 2000 dpi.

Up to this size rang I'm confident in the print quality. Its a big step to go bigger, I realise they will all need to be drum scanned, but also that the audience is going to be some distance away from the prints, I don't expect they will all put their nose to the prints as I do. Will 2000dpi surfice? 10,000 pixels at 200dpi gives a 50 inch print?

Once into the 50x40 inch range I'm going to have to outsource the prints, I have a choice of Giclee or Lambda near to me. I've never used or knowingly seen a Lamda print - can anyone precis the differences between the two, or advise which is better for huge prints?

I normally mount and frame with glass my prints, but this is going to be difficult in terms of cost/weight - has anyone else framed at this size or all relied on foam boards and the like?

I realise that in addition to having a man with a van, I'm going to have to phone around before putting in my proposal but would appreciate any advice from those that have had prior experience, pitfalls etc.

Thanks!

David

[Richard M. Coda]

Are these BW or color? Color might look nice as face mounted plexi.

[David Higgs]

likely to be mostly B+W

[Noah A]

I routinely make 40x50" and larger prints, and you should have no problems doing so from your 4x5 negatives.

Admittedly I've never tried printing that large from a 2000dpi scan, but I'd recommend scanning at 4000dpi. I have a Howtek 8000 and from my tests it seems to be a sweet spot in terms of file size and resolution. A 4000dpi scan of 4x5 can easily print to 40x50 and if you used good lenses and great technique, and if you don't mind a little grain, you could even go to 48x60. I've done some test strips of prints that size and they look surprisingly good with the 4000dpi Howtek scans.

I don't buy the argument about viewing distance, unless the work is hung high or in such a way that viewers can't get close. Viewers will often come in close to inspect prints, and more importantly, I don't want to sign a print that isn't up to my standard of quality. I want viewers to be able to look close and still see lots of sharp detail.

So 2000dpi would work of course, but why cut corners? The printing and mounting costs will be so high that in my opinion it doesn't make sense to cheap out on the scan.

As for printing, I personally do inkjet pigment prints but it's a matter of taste really. I think that pigment prints are more permanent, and I like the results I get with the epson printers. In my city we have a print shop where one can rent time on the big epsons, perhaps you have something similar? The price per print works out to much less than a full-service lab. Otherwise, I'm sure there are labs that will make the prints for you. If you like your smaller pigment prints I'm sure you'll like big ones too. One advantage over digital-c prints is that the heavier inkjet papers may be easier to handle without kinking the print. The Epson printers are either 44- or 60-inches wide, so find a lab or shop that has the size you need.

For prints of that size, mounting will be necessary. I like Dibond, but there are many options. I wouldn't use normal foamboard for such a large print. If you're on a tight budget then gatorboard may be an option, but I'm not sure if it's considered archival. There are also face-mounting options.

Some labs also do mounting, this is convenient because transporting such a large print can expose it to damage. You'll have to check your local labs to see what options they offer.

If you write up a proposal, please don't call your prints giclee! First of all it's a silly term. But a more important reason is that it tends to be used by printmakers and painters, for whom a 'giclee' is a print reproduced from an original artwork that is for sale at a cheaper price. So it may actually cause confusion in some circles. I was at an artists workshop recently about pricing artwork, and the printmakers and painters were using the term to mean reproductions, while a few of the photographers were using it to mean a technique for making their original prints. So everyone was confused. I just call mine pigment inkjet prints. (sorry for the rant!)

Good luck with your proposal!

[Jim Michael]

My wife prints large images for museums and the like and says she prefers a Lambda print if it's going to be face mounted to plex. Also re the resolution, I think she's mentioned 200 dpi being about the limit she'd go.

[bob carnie]

Good point, an issue to be completely aware of.
face mounting an inkjet can be problematic. Don't even consider matt prints, for face a metallic or flex print is best. There are some glossy metallic inkjet materials good for face mount , but be very , very careful if you decide to go down this route. Lots of pitfalls can occur.


My wife prints large images for museums and the like and says she prefers a Lambda print if it's going to be face mounted to plex. Also re the resolution, I think she's mentioned 200 dpi being about the limit she'd go.

[false_Aesthetic]

In 2009 I made a bunch of prints for a guy in Chicago. 60x90 on an 11880.

Scanned from 6x9 negs @ 8k DPI. IIRC printed at 180 dpi.

He (we) ended up deciding that the prints should be mounted to sintra and then laminated. It's not a perfectly archival solution but neither are Gursky's, Ruff's, Demand's face-mounted/diasec (however you spell it) prints.

IMO, if you wanna make it archival, make pottery.

[David Higgs]

thanks all -I'll speak to Tim about his thoughts on 4000 DPI and get some quotes on prints/prices

Noah - thank you very much, I meant Diabond, I had some Panoramas in that material
also re Giclee, I think the market might be different in the UK, I get the impression that people don't value inkjets (through a certain amount of ignorance) and try and avoid it if at all possible, but your points are very valid!

[Noah A]

I'm not familiar with the market in the UK. If galleries and collectors don't like inkjets, then I guess you could go with a lambda print. Can you find a lab to do a lambda/lightjet print onto B&W fiber paper? Because printing on to color paper just doesn't have the same look, in my opinion. Again, I don't know about the market in the UK, but for B&W prints RC paper (be it color or B&W) is kind of frowned upon by collectors here.

But since you mentioned that most of your current prints are inkjet, it seemed logical to stay with the same process.

I have c-prints from as little as ten years ago that are already slightly yellowed even though they were stored in the dark with archival materials. Perhaps some were done in a school lab where the chemicals weren't as clean as they should have been, but others were done in a pro lab.

I have non-archival inkjets with cheap paper and non-pigment ink from that same time that actually look better.

So I feel better selling inkjet prints, personally. But you do have to respond to the market to some extent, or else do what you can to educate potential collectors.

Dibond is a material made of polyester plastic and aluminum that you mount the photo on top of. Diasec is a process that involves face-mounting a print on to acrylic with a silicone adhesive. There are also other face-mounting options onto plexi which may or may not be better or worse, depending on who you ask.

If you mount on Dibond and don't use a face mount or lamination, inkjets look fine. In this case you could, for example, print with a margin showing and use a spacer and a traditional frame.

However if you want to do a diasec mount or some other kind of face mounting or lamination, then a c-print may work better.

It's probably best to speak with your mounting shop before you get your prints made to ensure you can get the type of mount you want with the type of print you're making. And talk to your printer before you get the scans done. If you can find one shop to do it all, that can make it easier...

[Lenny Eiger]

If you can find a Premier or an 8000, or an ICG 380, then you should be able to get scans at 8,000 ppi. Then you'll have 40K pixels to work with. You can make an 11 foot print at 300 dpi... I have made many 20 foot prints on my inkjet. They can be very beautiful. They do need a professional installer to get the installation right.

If you have questions and want to contact me, fee free...

Lenny
707-763-5922

[mcfactor]

I wouldnt print b&w on a lambda unless you are going to get fiber prints done. Otherwise its just a color print with no color. It wont be any better quality than an rc print.

[false_Aesthetic]

I wouldnt print b&w on a lambda unless you are going to get fiber prints done. Otherwise its just a color print with no color. It wont be any better quality than an rc print.

+1

[David Higgs]

great thanks everyone - lots to consider