Toyo 45A and Toyo 45CF Field Cameras

[montanha]

Looking for suggestions between a brand new 45 CF ($600) and Used 45A ($750), I'm a backpacker and planning do do mostly landscape with some sporadic portraits.
never used a 45 before.
thank you
John
PS: right now I'm using a Mamiya medium format film and a DSLR.

[tgtaylor]

I own the CF and AX (the successor to the A) and use the CF for backpacking and while cycling with LF or anytime I need to go light and compact. The camera has all the movements you will need for landscape. The drawbacks of the CF is that a fresnel is an optional, but needed IMO, accessory.

Thomas

[Joseph Dickerson]

I have experience with both and of the two, would strongly suggest the 45A.

It's heavier but much more robust and much more solid when you are using movements.

I teach at the local community college and we bought several 45CFs and they haven't held up. Of course you probably won't treat your own camera the way students treat loaner equipment. I'd hope not anyway. But the bottom line is that we are replacing the 45CFs with 45AX bodies. We also found the lack of rear movements on the 45CF to be a bigger issue than we initially thought it would be.

There are other options in your price range including some new (Shen Hao) that are convenient, versatile and compact.

If you're like me and don't do arduous overnight hikes you might consider a Sinar F1/2. It's part of an extensive system, weighs not much more than a lot of folding field cameras and, with a little planning, can be carried comfortably in a backpack. Most importantly there are a b'zillion of them on ebay, a lot of them considerably below your stated price. This gives you enough left in your budget for a good lens, film holders, and an adequate tripod.

If you plan on multi-day packing trips the 45A or AX is a good choice but most will opt for a lighter package, perhaps a Wista or Tachihara wooden field. Not as solid but around half the weight of the Sinar F1 or Toyo 45A.

Can you borrow the 45A, or negotiate a short trial period? I had a 45A years ago and it was a great camera, but it's not the most intuitive of the 4x5s I've worked with over the years. However, once you figure it out it's a solid, fast handling camera.

Hope I haven't given you too much to think about. Give it a couple of days and you find the wonderful folks around here will give you some great insights. I've never had an issue that someone on the forum didn't eventually solve for me. Well, photographic ones anyway. :D


JD

[chassis]

I use a Toyo 45AII and it works well for landscape,
still life and portraits. It is the first 4x5 camera I have
owned and find it easy to use and it produces
nice images. I plan to take it hiking and general out
and about stuff.

[Peter De Smidt]

I have a 45AX. I'm very happy with it. I prefer it to an AII, since I don't care about a rotating back. I've looked at a CF, but I personally wouldn't want one as a main camera. It doesn't seem rugged enough.

[montanha]

thank you all for the suggestions

[montanha]

Hello Joseph
You recommended the Sinar F , I do have available to me a Sinar F2 for about 399, is that a huge difference from the Toyo 45A to the sinar F or F2? I would like the option of be able to work with the camera also in a studio environment. but really don't want anything super difficult to carried in the field, can you help me more on the reference Sinar? the price really attracted me

[R-H-]

I must agree that the CF, although light, was not sturdy enough for my tastes and I had issues with vibration from the wind.

[Peter De Smidt]

A Sinar F2 in fine working shape is an excellent camera. With a bag bellows, you would be better able to handle wide angle lenses, and with a standard Sinar bellows and extension rail, you can also use much longer lenses than on a Toyo field camera. (That said, I use lenses from 90mm - 420mm with my Toyo, with an extension back for the 420.) So you gain flexibility with the Sinar. What you loose is ruggedness and compactness. Never, ever, force anything on a Sinar, not that you should really be forcing anything with any large format camera. If the item in question doesn't move easily and smoothly, then it isn't seated properly or a lock hasn't been released.

For my uses, mostly landscapes, I prefer a Toho field camera, but I spent a decade mainly using Sinar cameras.

[montanha]

Thanks again Peter
I do also have a Toyo 45F for a decent price, are familiar with this model?

[John Rodriguez]

I've been using a CF for the past 7 months (first LF camera) that I bought second hand.

Positives:
- Light
- Sturdy: I haven't had any issues with vibration or build quality save one - the tabs that hold the back in place are made of a soft metal, if you were ham fisted with it over a long period of time I could see them getting damaged.
- Folds with a lens in place
- Folds fairly compact
- Folds/unfolds quickly

Negatives
- No back movements: not much of an issue for me. I've only come across one shot where I thought some back movement would be nice. I never had/needed back movements using tilt/shift lenses so I'm used to it.
- No fine control mechanism for tilt/swing. Not something most field cameras have anyways, but I've thought about going to a Wista field for this reason. In practice this hasn't been an issue, but it would speed up the focusing process.

I don't consider the lack of a fresnel to be a problem; I find the stock ground glass plenty bright enough for landscape work.

[Joseph Dickerson]

Hi again,

Sorry I didn't respond quicker.

I think that $399 for a Sinar F2 is one hell of a price.

The F2 is only a pound of so heavier than the F/F1 but has a couple of advantages. First the swings and shift are on separate locks. On the F/F1 there is only one lock for both movements. Also the F2 has front knob focussing while on the F/F1 you have to unlock the whole front standard and shift it to focus. Also the F2 front standard is a little more robust.

These are not huge differences but do contribute to the F2 being favored over the F/F1.

I, and a lot of others on this forum, prefer a monorail for field use and the Sinar F series is one of the best for field use, but is no slouch in the studio either. Another advantage, some would say disadvantage, is that the Sinar cameras can be upgraded ad infinity. Most parts are completely interchangeable.

I occasionally let my students use my F1 in our studio and so far they haven't been able to break anything. I do keep my fingers crossed though.

There are currently a couple of F2s on ebay offered at $550 so I think $399 if not a steal, is certainly a bargain. That seems to be about what F/F1s are going for.

You can search "Sinar F" on this forum and you'll come up with lots of good info.

Perhaps Jim Petronio will share some of his well respected insights as well.

JD

[Peter De Smidt]

I think that $399 for a Sinar F2 is one hell of a price.



+1, assuming there are no condition "issues"! It's a terrific price. The great advantage of a Sinar is the huge number of used parts available.

[Joseph Dickerson]

Just re-read my post...that should of course be FRANK Petronio. :o

Sorry Frank.

JD

[tgtaylor]

Actually the CF does have a back movement but only one: When you drop the bed the back tilts back at a 15 degree angle without the ability to stop it at an intermediate angle. This means that the CF is not the camera to use for shooting skyscrappers (you need a forward tilt for that) but how many skyscrappers do you run across out in the backcountry anyway? The CF is primarily designed as a lightweight and rugged field camera and is particularily well suited for backcountry travel. While the bed drop movement is ill-suited for skyscrapers it will enable the savy landscaper to exagerate the size of objects in the foreground :)

Thomas

[Robert Oliver]

I backpack with 4x5 and found the Chamonix 45n-1 to be the ultimate mix of light weight, bellows draw and build quality.

I tried a bunch including the Toyo CF and 45A.

Never tried a Toho, but they seem to be a very lightweight option

[John Rodriguez]

I've been using a CF for the past 7 months (first LF camera) that I bought second hand.

Positives:
- Light
- Sturdy: I haven't had any issues with vibration or build quality save one - the tabs that hold the back in place are made of a soft metal, if you were ham fisted with it over a long period of time I could see them getting damaged.
- Folds with a lens in place
- Folds fairly compact
- Folds/unfolds quickly

Negatives
- No back movements: not much of an issue for me. I've only come across one shot where I thought some back movement would be nice. I never had/needed back movements using tilt/shift lenses so I'm used to it.
- No fine control mechanism for tilt/swing. Not something most field cameras have anyways, but I've thought about going to a Wista field for this reason. In practice this hasn't been an issue, but it would speed up the focusing process.

I don't consider the lack of a fresnel to be a problem; I find the stock ground glass plenty bright enough for landscape work.

As a follow up to this post for anyone that digs it up in a search - I've run into vibration problems with longer heavy lenses. When racked out the weight on the front causes the slightest impacts to result in a lot of vibration. With a Fujinon 250mm f/6.3 shots longer then 1 second come out OK, but anything shorter is almost always un-useable. With the lens mounted and focused, if I depress the shutter even lightly I can see the image move in the ground glass. This is likely due to the base the tripod socket is mounted to being made out of thermoplastic instead of metal. I'm not sure what the cut-off is, but a Fujinon 180mm f/5.6 in a copal 1 is fine. A light 210mm in a copal 0 would probably be ok too, but I don't think I'd go any longer.

Still, if you're fine with a 210mm being your longest lens it's a great camera for backpacking, especially since it folds with a lens mounted. I'm going to pick up a metal field, but I'll probably keep the CF for overnight trips.

[R-H-]

Although heavy, you will love the sturdiness of the metal Toyo.

[tgtaylor]

I've used my 45CF with 75mm (recessed lensboard with bed drop), 90mm f4.5 Grandragon (flat lensboard), 120mm Nikkor F9, 150mm, 210mm (Symmer-S), and 300mm Nikkor-M with no issues even when mounted on a Gitzo GT0540 tripod. However I do use a cable release and do my best to shield the camera from the wind.

Incidently the 75mm f4.5 Grandagon, 150mm Rodenstock apo Sirona-S, and 300mm Nikkor-M are ideal for traveling light with a minimal kit.

Thomas

[chassis]

In the six months I have owned a Toyo 45AII, I have taken it through airports across the US twice, and hiked beaches, forests and mountain trails. It is a great camera for field use, and I can't find anything negative to say about it. I use 58mm and 150mm lenses in the field, and haven't detected shake or vibration problems. With the 58mm lens, I use a 12mm recessed lensboard.

Indoors I use 150mm and also 11" (280mm) lenses for still life and portrait images. Again, no problems I have experienced with stability, or running out of camera movement for my type of photography. With the 11" lens I use a 4" extension back.

This is pretty close to a do-all camera at this stage of my photographic journey.