Neutral scanning?

[Ari]

This might seem like a ridiculous question, but I have some sheets of C-41 to compare, and I find that my scanner (Epson 4990, Epson scanning software) doesn't always render them exactly the same way after a preview scan.
This makes it hard to see the difference between two photos unless I apply some changes to colour, saturation, contrast, etc.
Is there any way to standardize this so I can more honestly compare exposure and colour between two photos?

I hope that makes sense.
Thanks in advance.

[jschaeff]

hi,

if I understand you correctly, then the use of a it-8 target slide (to calibrate your scanner) AND vuescan (expert options activated) should solve your problem.

in vuescan it is possible to use the same setting for every image, since you can adjust them manually, and I believe even save them as a preset.


regards.

[Ari]

Thanks; you did understand correctly, despite my best efforts :)
Maybe I'll try Vuescan for this batch and see how it goes.

[polyglot]

Definitely try VueScan. The workflow for C41 I use is:
* preview, including some blank film
* Lock Exposure, reduce the number a little to prevent blowouts in the blank areas
* preview again
* select blank area (colours go wonky)
* Lock Film Base Colour
* select image area (colours come better)
* (optional) Lock Image Colour
* scan
* Manual colour balance in the Colour tab
* fix highlight casts with the 3 separate white-point sliders
* fix shadow casts with the 3 separate black-point sliders
* fiddle contrast and "brightness" slider (thicker negs will need a lower "brightness" value to bring the highlight contrast back; this slider is similar to adding more exposure under the enlarger)
* don't unlock anything until the end of the roll/batch

I reckon that works pretty well (http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=fuji_c41&w=24125157%40N00&m=tags), though those are all 6x7.

[Bruce Watson]

This might seem like a ridiculous question, but I have some sheets of C-41 to compare, and I find that my scanner (Epson 4990, Epson scanning software) doesn't always render them exactly the same way after a preview scan.

Par for the course. Scanning C-41 is *always* going to require some manipulation after the fact. But my experience with E-6 is exactly the same, it's all going to require some manipulation. Theoretically you can at least ICC profile the scanner for a given E-6 emulsion which should make the scanner somewhat more repeatable (but at the expense of having few (none?) of the scans being exactly right for any given frame), but you can't profile for C-41.

When I was running a scanning business, I handled this in what was seemingly a unique way -- I did my comparisons on the light table with a loupe. Yes, you can. With practice and effort, you can train your brain to drop the orange mask and invert the negative. Just like LF -- with enough practice you stop seeing the image on the ground glass as upside down and backwards. At least that's what worked for me. Clearly, YMMV.

[Ari]

Thanks, guys; will try Vuescan later tonight.

[Frank Petronio]

It's one of those things you learn from knocking your head against the wall, if you read the marketing literature and not the instructions then you think you can profile everything perfectly and never make a test print or tweak again....

In practice it is really an art to matching flesh tones in a series of photos outside of perfectly consistent studio conditions... I notice that even the most famous fashion photographers usually can't or won't or they just mask it with some other special effects bullshit.

[jschaeff]

well, you cannot profile for negatives - but the scanners sensor does not suddenly change if you insert another filmtype. so basically, the shift in colors from e6 gives you a good hint what/how to optimise for c41. at least with my lowcostscanner this works not bad at all.

although i shoot color only to convert to b/w.

[Ramiro Elena]

Glad you asked Ari. It is driving me crazy. Not trying to profile film but I wish Epson software could be locked to a particular setting at least when scanning takes of one roll.

Everytime you preview, the auto feature changes drastically even if all the images were taken in the same place and light conditions.

[Ben Syverson]

You can turn off Auto without turning off all the color controls. That way, you can set Levels and whatever else, and it won't change them from scan to scan.

[Ari]

You can turn off Auto without turning off all the color controls. That way, you can set Levels and whatever else, and it won't change them from scan to scan.

Thanks, Ben, I'll give that a try.
I had no success with Vuescan, but I only gave it a few minutes' try; I quickly went back to using Epson's software as I had a lot of scanning to do.
I realize some tweaking is necessary, but to have one negative come out with a blue cast, and the next one have a green cast is just annoying.
Thanks, everyone.

[Ramiro Elena]

What film are you using Ari? I find some films are easier to scan. In my case I have a big load of PortraVC that is a bitch to scan. I get colored grain in most of the shadows that is impossible to correct.
I've had better results with Fuji NPH and even better with Kodak Gold (can't remember which kind)

[Ari]

Ramiro, I was using Portra 160, and now Ektar 100; my scanner performs the same way for both films.
I've since ordered Fuji NPH for my 120 stuff, but 4x5 is where I get the most annoyed.:)
If there is a way to turn off the "Auto" feature on the Epson software, I'll try it when I next scan.

[bob carnie]

A little trick with mac driven scanners, I am sure this can be duplicated across the board.

I use the Digital Colour Meter, inside utilities, Set it for LAB colour with a small apeture and sample my scans exactly the same way I do with the info palette in PS.

I find the A and B numbers very intuitive as a analoque enlarger colour corrector the ability to zero out the magenta , green and yellow blue and as well the red or cyan in a very easy manner , rather than using the RGB numbers that most scanning programs offer you.

Picking areas to be neutral like blacks whites and something in the mid areas is very easy, and the more you use this you will be able to easily place flesh tone values across a large body of negatives ,

I find the different film balances, types of films, types and levels of C41 processing to be mind boggling and using this digital colour meter in conjunction with your scanner software , allows me to quickly come to a good neutral balance for each scan.

[bob carnie]

Auto sucks Ari.

Ramiro, I was using Portra 160, and now Ektar 100; my scanner performs the same way for both films.
I've since ordered Fuji NPH for my 120 stuff, but 4x5 is where I get the most annoyed.:)
If there is a way to turn off the "Auto" feature on the Epson software, I'll try it when I next scan.

[Ari]

A little trick with mac driven scanners, I am sure this can be duplicated across the board.

I use the Digital Colour Meter, inside utilities, Set it for LAB colour with a small apeture and sample my scans exactly the same way I do with the info palette in PS.

I find the A and B numbers very intuitive as a analoque enlarger colour corrector the ability to zero out the magenta , green and yellow blue and as well the red or cyan in a very easy manner , rather than using the RGB numbers that most scanning programs offer you.

Picking areas to be neutral like blacks whites and something in the mid areas is very easy, and the more you use this you will be able to easily place flesh tone values across a large body of negatives ,

I find the different film balances, types of films, types and levels of C41 processing to be mind boggling and using this digital colour meter in conjunction with your scanner software , allows me to quickly come to a good neutral balance for each scan.

Bob,
On my computer (Mac), I have "CIE L*a*b".
Is that to what you are referring?
Do you just pick your blacks, whites, and mids, and off you go? Or is there more to this?
Thanks

[Ari]

I just turned on the scanner, and I have been scanning in "Professional" mode; I don't think I've ever used any other mode of scanning.

[bob carnie]

On your hard drive , go to applications - utilities - and you should see digital colour meter, double click and then set in CIe Lab mode with a small apeture.
you can then start moving your cursor over the desktop and see how the numbers and densitys change as you move over them.



Bob,
On my computer (Mac), I have "CIE L*a*b".
Is that to what you are referring?
Thanks

And yes, Auto sux

[Ari]

Bob,
I have very little experience printing colour, and, to boot, I'm probably colour-blind in some way, so please forgive my ignorance.
When using the Digital CM, do you just pick your blacks, whites, and mids, and off you go? Or is there more to this?
Are you looking for the A or B column to give you a specific number that tells you something about the colour being sampled?
Thanks

[bob carnie]

Well if your colour blind , using the info palette and understanding the numbers is the way for you.
Dan Margulis has a book on Lab Colour and PS which goes very heavy into the dynamics of using the LAB numbers for neutralizing colours.
In fact I took quite a few courses with him and one of the mornings was spent colour correcting a scene in Black and White mode and using your common sense to look at the numbers and achieve a good balance... suprisingly we did ok.

I think you should look into this , as once you get it , you will find the info palette in LAB setting or the Digital Colour Meter a wonderful tool.
A refers to green magenta
B refers to blue yellow
L refers to luminosity in 100 pt density increments,,, think zone system

When you are sampling , one looks for black with detail, highlight with detail and if you are lucky midtone with detail that should be neutral grey.
Sometimes an image does not contain the areas you need and with past experience what certain colours should read and your eyes you can nail a colour balance very quickly.
Long learning curve Ari,, no time but the present to start.
Kelby training has Dan M on it and for 19 bucks a month could be a good place to start your journey on colour correction.

Also lots of people confuse the Munsell system with the Colour photgraphic wheel.
Kodak has lots of technical manuals on colour theory which IMO is critical to understand. At some point do a printed colour ring around , I make all my assistants do this.
If you have a decent monitor and a neutral room , with good lighting on the ring around you can visually improve your ability to judge colour.



Bob,
I have very little experience printing colour, and, to boot, I'm probably colour-blind in some way, so please forgive my ignorance.
When using the Digital CM, do you just pick your blacks, whites, and mids, and off you go? Or is there more to this?
Are you looking for the A or B column to give you a specific number that tells you something about the colour being sampled?
Thanks

[Ari]

Bob, thank you very much; that's an excellent place to start.

[bob carnie]

No problem

If you ever get into Toronto , give me a call and I will give you the 10 minute neutralizing demo using LAB Info numbers.

[Ari]

No problem

If you ever get into Toronto , give me a call and I will give you the 10 minute neutralizing demo using LAB Info numbers.

I'll do that; I'm overdue for a visit.
Thanks again.

[ljkuzel]

I have been very disappointed with the options available for scanning negative films. I am saying this having worked in photographic color printing labs and having some experience with "analog" printing directly from negatives to photographic paper.

I have used the Epson and tried all manner of settings and found that it will not scan consistently from the same frame, much less frame to frame. I downloaded LaserSoft's Silverfast and found there was no way to make consistent scans frame to frame, it always want to inflict some correction based on what colors it sees in the image itself. I even went so far as to try to contact LaserSoft and ask if there was a way to create a "profile" for a particular brand of film that was developed by a particular lab on any given day and was told pretty much, NO.

I really think I will try Vuescan next since it seems like what I'm looking for, the ability to set a standard for a particular film, exposed under a particular light source, at the same exposure, processed on a given day in a given lab. I just really want a totally manual setting, one that will neutral out that particular orange mask, then manually adjust for one image that will stay exactly the same over every other scan, then fine tune after scanning. Please tell me that it will do that. :)

[photobymike]

I scan with an Epson v750 with epson software. I just use the histogram and the contrast screen. Then i color correct with lightroom. The secret is to tune your monitor for your printer. Most of my scans look green or magenta.... but after visual correction they print close on my printer sometimes i have to make very minor corrections after printing the fist image... For me its more important to have your monitor tuned to the printer..I use Color Eyes Display Pro with Monaco Optix Xr sensor. This works because my monitor color is the constant, everything else is the variable. I have tried different monitors and i found that an older Apple Cinema Display 20" 23" works best even on a PC. (these monitors can be bought on the cheap)..I would always use a DVI card and monitor as opposed to a standard VGA. VGA is an analog color standard that is very hard to keep in "tune". My DVI monitor is very good at staying at "tune" colors. Start with a good monitor that is "tuned" and your troubles will get smaller.

My website pictures are 80% 35mm film scanned with my Epson v750.

http://www.mikepic.com

[tbeaman]

It's worth mentioning the Colorperfect Photoshop plug-in. The user interface is horseshit, and some of it is just obtuse, but for a program specifically designed for reversing and balancing color negative films, it's definitely the most powerful and versatile. In some ways, too much. I can get lost trying to decide what's "neutral".

It has gamma curves built-in for almost every make of film (based on the actual density curves published by the manufacturers), beyond which you have a lot of manual control. For instance, you can click on any spot to anchor that as neutral, then move a slider and watch the color curves cross around either end of that spot, while at the same time, adjusting the gray contrast level and/or the color contrast level, not to mention highlight and shadow compression. It goes without saying that the learning curve is steep, and in the end, it really demonstrates how much color negative leaves you up a (subjective) creek.

That is to say, the only real way to get neutral scanning with color negative is to leave it uninverted. ;)

[Ramiro Elena]

Thanks tbeaman. Searching for more info on this plugin, I found this tutorial that looks very good. I am definetly trying it.

http://benneh.net/blog/2010/09/25/vuescan-colorperfect-a-guide/