Industar-4 (4,5/210), which year ?

[bolas]

Since few days i am wondering about a year of production of mine Industar-4 (4,5/210). I got it with FK 13x18 some time ago and i am very curious how old is this set. All i found on the web is Industar-4 was developed in GOI in 1931. Production lasted till 1955. First series and known pieces are with 3 digits serial numbers, those from the end are with 7. My got No.3567 and was produced in GOMZ, is it possible that it could be from the 30's ?

[E. von Hoegh]

Is it coated?

[Dan Fromm]

The dating rule for optics from the former Soviet Union is that the last two digits of the year of manufacture, e.g., 35, are the first two digits of the serial number. The rule isn't always followed, if followed for your lens would date it to 1935.

The I-4 was designed in 1931 (see the 1963 GOI catalog, which can be downloaded from http://www.lallement.com/pictures/files.htm) so 1935 is possible.

[bolas]

Dan Fromm - thank You for the link to the catalogues, i didn't know them. Unfortunately there is nothing new in them - only technical specification, nothing about serial numbers and years of production.
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/7453/96082049.jpg

I know this general rule about first two digits, but i have also seen (on the web) I-4's with 3digits numbers - starting f.e. with 112, or 224 ... so this cannot work with years - cause I-4 was designed as it was already said in 1930/31. Another thing which worries me - number is 3567 - is it really possible that only 67 lens were produced between 1931-35 ? Not really i would say ...

Examples:
http://www.photohistory.ru/Pictures/Lens-Ind-4-04.jpg

Another one ... starting with 38 and got ... 5 digits. So it can't work in my opinon - 67 lenses untill 1935 (acording to my number 3567) and then 4655 more in just 3 years.
http://www.photohistory.ru/Pictures/Lens-Ind-4-03.jpg

Finaly, mine:
http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/3940/42895389.jpg

[Dan Fromm]

I don't know how lens makers in the FSU assigned serial numbers within years. Possibilities include #of lenses made so far this year, i.e., yours is the 67th I-4 or lens of all types that GOMZ made in 1935. They could also have assigned the numbers sequentially within type from the beginning of time, in which case your reading (I-4 #3567 is the 67th I-4 made). Or they could have started out numbering lenses sequentially within type and at some point in time switched to YY-NNNNNNNNNNNN with the process of assigning NNN... unexplained, in which case I-4 3467 could be the 3467th one made.

Western lens makers occasionally switched numbering schemes, why should the FSU have been different?

Also, if P-H Pont's list of serial numbers is correct, there seems to have been a major slump in lens making in Europe from 1929 to around 1935, followed by an increase in annual production volumes. There's no reason why the Great Depression should have affected the FSU as it did european countries ...

Cheers,

Dan

[E. von Hoegh]

Obvoiusly a Tessar type, how good are these?

[bolas]

I don't know how lens makers in the FSU assigned serial numbers within years. Possibilities include #of lenses made so far this year, i.e., yours is the 67th I-4 or lens of all types that GOMZ made in 1935. They could also have assigned the numbers sequentially within type from the beginning of time, in which case your reading (I-4 #3567 is the 67th I-4 made). Or they could have started out numbering lenses sequentially within type and at some point in time switched to YY-NNNNNNNNNNNN with the process of assigning NNN... unexplained, in which case I-4 3467 could be the 3467th one made.

Western lens makers occasionally switched numbering schemes, why should the FSU have been different?

Also, if P-H Pont's list of serial numbers is correct, there seems to have been a major slump in lens making in Europe from 1929 to around 1935, followed by an increase in annual production volumes. There's no reason why the Great Depression should have affected the FSU as it did european countries ...

Cheers,

Dan

Well, that theory convinced me :) Thanks Dan ! I'm finishing restoration process of this camera and probably during incoming weekend i'll take it for a ride ;)

[Dan Fromm]

E., PMFJI. I can't answer for the OP, can report that the I-4 was designed in 1931. It is the earliest design in the 1963 GOI catalog.

The I-51, also a 210/4.5 was designed in 1938. I'm surprised by the OP's news that it didn't supersede the I-4.

I've had one I-51, s/n 634904, made by KOMZ and coated. It was pretty poor, but I'm not sure that has any bearing on how well other I-51s perform because q/c was so spotty in the FSU.

I don't read Russian but believe that text with the two lenses indicates both were made for aerial photography. Download the catalog from Seb Lallement's site, I think you'll get a kick out of it.

The GOI catalog has a graph for each lens that shows resolution wide open (measured with target of unknown contrast, shot with unspecified film) across the field. The I-51 is sharper centrally (34 lp/mm vs. 26) and across most of the field than the I-4, at the edge of the field they're both basically not there.

[bolas]

One more question :) Is there any chance to get a shutter to this lens like Copal/Compur etc ? I know about this external russian shutters but the yare very slow (fastest time 1/30s).

[Dan Fromm]

Here http://www.suaudeau.eu/memo/pratique/Les_obturateurs_centraux.html is a large and almost certainly incomplete list of shutters. When you get y'r I-4, measure cell thread diameters and pitches and spacing and then look in the table for a shutter that might fit. I did something similar with my I-51, concluded that (a) there's no shutter the cells will go into without machine shop work and (b) putting them in a shutter made no economic sense at all.

You might want to think about front-mounting it on a modern shutter.

If I had the lens -- I don't and doubt I'll buy more ex-FSU lenses -- I'd try to sell it or would put it in a display case. If I wanted a 210 I'd shop for a relatively modern one in shutter.

I have a fair number of lenses that I use mounted in front of leaf shutters. Doing this can make economic sense if one mount adapter will serve several lenses and if one shutter can serve most of the lenses ... You can read about my adventures at http://www.galerie-photo.com/telechargement/dan-fromm-6x9-lenses-v2-2011-03-29.pdf

On the whole, barrel lenses whose cells won't go straight into a modern shutter are best thought of as poisoned gifts. That's your I-4 until it is proven otherwise, and if the 1963 GOI catalog is right it isn't even a particularly good lens.

[Arne Croell]

Dan is right; the inscription in the upper right hand corner of the GOI catalog says its an aerial photography lens. However, 25lp/mm in the center as best resolution (probably at f/4.5, stopping down will help) is not that great for an aerial lens...

[c.d.ewen]

You might want to think about front-mounting it on a modern shutter.


Not too easy to do on a modern shutter, but simple on a semi-modern one.

Charley

[Dan Fromm]

Sorry, Charley, I should have been more specific. Post-WW-II, which includes your very clean Ilex #5. It may not be what the OP wants, though, its top speed is probably too slow for him.

The last time I checked Melles-Griot, one of Ilex' successors, still made electronically timed shutters. They're much too expensive for the likes of me.

[bolas]

Thank You all for your reply's. They are very helpful. Thinking about shutter i mean something from same era, not modern at all. I'm just entusiasth of stuff from 20-40's so i 10x more like old rusty Compur than modern electronically timed shutters :) I also don't need any flash sync - just shutter times from 1s to let say 1/250-1/500. That's all. So the best for me is to get something from 30-40's - that's why i mentioned about Compurs. This Ilex seems to be great.

Today i tested this camera on Fuji X-ray film. Seems to me that is not so poor as one may think ;) Take a look - sorry for bad quality scan, my agfa is on her last days i think ...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27604426@N08/6372919723/in/photostream/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27604426@N08/6372920261/in/photostream/lightbox/

[Dan Fromm]

An attractive woman will improve any lens.

About shutters, larger Compounds are too slow for you and I think the Compur 3 is too.

[bolas]

Ooops, i'm not too familiar with LF shutters and got used to speeds from medium and small format from 30-40's. 1/250-1/500 was very common, so i'm a bit surprised noticing the fact that in LF shutters they are not so popular. Most of cheaper shutters i've found on the web is with slow speeds like 1/30-1/50 maximum. Is it really difficult to get someting working with at least 1/100 too 100USD ?