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KyledeC
15-Nov-2011, 13:20
Hello All,

I have an Arca Swiss Field 4x5. I want to start making square exposures (4x4") using a large format view camera. I made a mask out of matte board with a 4x4" opening, and taped the matte board to the inside of my film plate (so it is taped right in front of where the negative holder slides in). I am having some issues with this.

I made a test exposure, and the negative came out measuring 4 5/16th" wide. Why is this happening when the opening of the mask is 4"?

And when I look through the ground glass, the borders of the mask are basically non existent, I can barely even see them on the sides of the ground glass, they definitely are not half an inch wide on each side when being viewed through the glass.

Has anyone done this before? How would you recommend I go about doing this?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!

-Kyle

Ari
15-Nov-2011, 13:33
If I shot with a view to use 4x4, I'd simply crop the extra inch when printing or scanning.

Vaughn
15-Nov-2011, 13:34
Take a film holder, draw out the darkslide far enough so that it will expose your square image -- then mark your darkslide so you can pull it out the same amount again when taking the photo.

The only problem with this is that the bottom edge of the darkslide is not a straight line -- some bow inwards a little. So the other possibility is to cut a spare darkslide so that when it is put into the holder, only a square is exposed. This has the advantage of keeping your camera unmodified so that you can take full-frame or square images -- and since you push the modified darkslide all the way in, it will be aligned squarely to the holder.

SMBooth
15-Nov-2011, 13:35
You still have a gap between the film and the mask so the light is still hitting the film from an angle, why not just crop at print stage, or matt when framing. Or you could just leave the darkslide in a 1inch and offset your framing on the GG. Remember technical your full image size is 3 7/8 x 4 3/4

KyledeC
15-Nov-2011, 13:44
Thank you all! The only reason that I don't want to just crop in the darkroom is because I would like to be able to compose in the square format. With that being said, just making a dark slide with a 3 7/8x3 7/8" opening is a great idea. But do you have any ideas on how I would be able compose in the square format while using the dark slide idea to make a square exposure.

If I were to do the dark slide method, would I have to worry about the distance between the plastic of the slide and the film?

Thank you all so much!

Joanna Carter
15-Nov-2011, 13:48
I make 6 x 14 proportioned shots on 4 x 5 film by having a mask that I clip into the viewing side of the GG screen; this gives me perfect framing. Then I simply crop when printing.

Kevin Crisp
15-Nov-2011, 14:05
I'm with Joanna - crop the screen expose the whole sheet of film. Just add two vertical grid lines.

sully75
15-Nov-2011, 14:16
not to thread jack, but are there any 6x6 roll film backs?

Bob Salomon
15-Nov-2011, 14:17
not to thread jack, but are there any 6x6 roll film backs?

Linhof made a 6x6 Super Rollex back for a while. You can see the one for Linhof 23 cameras here:

http://hpmarketingstore.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=10&sort=20a&page=3

The insert of a Super Rollex is the same for the 23 and the 45 cameras. So the 6x6 insert on this back will fit a 45 Super Rollex shell.

vinny
15-Nov-2011, 14:21
not to thread jack, but are there any 6x6 roll film backs?

Yes.
When i shoot panos on my cameras i place a friction fit black board "splitter board" in the inside of the back of the camera. That way i'm composing and exposing only what i want. You can do the same with your setup, just cut a 1/4" piece of mdf to fit.

Vaughn
15-Nov-2011, 14:23
Rather than making a square opening in the darkslide, you might consider just cutting off the end of a darkslide, leaving only about 2 3/8 inch of the original darkslide. Then all you have to do is mask off an inch on the one end of the GG.

Cutting a hole in the darkslide would leave a very fragile darkslide.

I have done similar things to 8x10 darkslides to get two 4x10 negs on an 8x10 sheet of film. As with the image below. Fortunately, my GG is gridded, and I just use the gridlines to compose. The modified darkslides are close enough to the film to be fairly accurate.

PS -- I prefer to mask the negative so that I have a rebate around the image for contact printing.

E. von Hoegh
15-Nov-2011, 14:25
Thank you all! The only reason that I don't want to just crop in the darkroom is because I would like to be able to compose in the square format. With that being said, just making a dark slide with a 3 7/8x3 7/8" opening is a great idea. But do you have any ideas on how I would be able compose in the square format while using the dark slide idea to make a square exposure.

If I were to do the dark slide method, would I have to worry about the distance between the plastic of the slide and the film?

Thank you all so much!

Mark it out on the groundglass.

KyledeC
15-Nov-2011, 14:32
Rather than making a square opening in the darkslide, you might consider just cutting off the end of a darkslide, leaving only about 2 3/8 inch of the original darkslide. Then all you have to do is mask off an inch on the one end of the GG.

Cutting a hole in the darkslide would leave a very fragile darkslide.

I have done similar things to 8x10 darkslides to get two 4x10 negs on an 8x10 sheet of film. As with the image below. Fortunately, my GG is gridded, and I just use the gridlines to compose. The modified darkslides are close enough to the film to be fairly accurate.

PS -- I prefer to mask the negative so that I have a rebate around the image for contact printing.

I really like the idea of just cutting off the end of the darkslide, that sounds easiest and then I could just mask the ground glass so I can compose in the square.

My question is, will light go underneath the edge of the darkslide and expose film?

Thank you! Great advice!

Ken Lee
15-Nov-2011, 14:36
Blue painter's tape on the groundglass: easy on, easy off. No residue.

Don't draw on the groundglass.

When you get tired of the square, you can try all the other ratios - classical and otherwise :)

Drew Bedo
15-Nov-2011, 15:24
Why not use a mask made from a dark slide?

Doremus Scudder
16-Nov-2011, 07:21
Even the darkslide is some distance from the film. For 4x5 film, your edges will not be clean nor exactly where you want them, unless you are simply contact printing (as the poster above is). Remember, the light projected from the lens to the film is basically a cone, which gets larger in diameter the farther from the lens you place the film. There will be some discrepancy when using the darkslide as a mask which will show up more as the amount of enlargement increases.

Unless you want a rebate for contact printing (I won't even get into the aesthetics of rebate vs no rebate...), you are better off cropping at the printing stage.

If you really need that dark edge, you'll have to find some way to mask directly on the negative (tape on the film at the loading stage etc., which I would think was an invitation for dust and crud...), or, simply cut the negative down at the printing stage, effectively cropping with your cutter. (Then you'll really have a square negative).

For me, every subject dictates its own aspect ratio; I print square, long and thing, short and squat, whatever is required by the demands of the thing being photographed. I really never understood the need for squeezing one's vision into any particular format.

Best,

Doremus

sully75
16-Nov-2011, 07:31
Isn't the darkslide a lot closer than the edges of the film holder, which provides some of the borders?

BrianShaw
16-Nov-2011, 07:38
Blue painter's tape on the groundglass: easy on, easy off. No residue.

Don't draw on the groundglass.

When you get tired of the square, you can try all the other ratios - classical and otherwise :)

Ken (or anyone else with an opinion) - slightly off-topic question: why not? I've done that with soft pencil (on the ground side) and washed it off with Windex. Also grease penciled on the smooth side. Is there potential damage that I'm not aware of?

Ken Lee
16-Nov-2011, 07:46
I've simply found it safest to leave the groundglass alone, since it's prone to scratches, dust, and being dropped by clumsy people like me. :rolleyes:

Painter's tape is simple, effective, harmless and readily available. There's no need to remove the groundglass for cleaning and handling. We can apply and remove painter's tape virtually ad infinitum, leaving the rest of the camera intact. Square today, Golden Section tomorrow. No fuss, no muss.

I also find it hard to use a simple "wire frame" for composition (another reason I sold my Mamiya 7, whose rangefinder provides a frame within a window). I prefer to have the edges completely dark, but that's my limitation.

If a grease pencil and glass-cleaner works, then that's the answer too. :)

Doremus Scudder
16-Nov-2011, 07:46
sully75,

Nope, the film in a holder is under rails on the top, and sides and a flap on the bottom, all of which contact the film, making sharp edges. The darkslide is a ways away from the film. The edges of a "darkslide mask" may be sharp enough for contact printing, but maybe not for 4-5x enlargements. It depends on individual tolerance though.

Best,

Doremus

Richard A Johnson
16-Nov-2011, 08:13
Hi Kyle, I have been experimenting with shooting 4x4 with my 4x5 for a while now. And I quite enjoy using this format size when the subject dictates it. I have cut a dark slide down so that when I make an image it comes out square on the film as suggested already. I have had no problems with fogging of the film where the area is covered by the dark-slide. I would suggest that after you cut the slide that you use a very fine sandpaper to sand and round the edges of the slide. Then I would wash the slide with mild soap and water to make sure that there is no left over sand on the slide that could transfer to the inside of the holder when using your mask-slide. ...this makes for a smooth edge on the exposed film and allows the dark-slide to move in and out of the holder freely. Mask off the back of your camera and go for it, I have and it has been great looking at and printing SQUARES. (IT'S HIP TO BE SQUARE)

have fun Richard:) :)

Vaughn
16-Nov-2011, 08:50
...My question is, will light go underneath the edge of the darkslide and expose film?

From my experience, no -- not significantly. Looking at my 4x10 negatives, I get a sharp shadow line from the darkslide, though granted it helps that the edge goes right down the middle. But even then, I usually center the lens on the center of the 4x10 negative so the cone of light is hitting the darkslide edge at an angle.

But I will have to look at some of my 4x10 negs later today -- some may have gotten some flare under the edge of the darkslide during long exposures with very bright areas right at the edge. One even sees this happening with roll film (35mm and 120). But in 95%+ of the times, I have sharp edges on the 4x10's.

Now I just need to get off my butt and cut down a darkslide so I can do 8x8 images. I prefer using the metal 8x10 darkslides (and I have a couple extra 11x14 metal darklides for making 5.5x14 too) as I have broken a modified darkslide made out the normal material out in the field (I neglected to provide adequate protection for it in my pack -- it was just tossed in with the film holders...the metal ones are much tougher!)

Vaughn

JON BUTLER
16-Nov-2011, 09:35
I'm with Joanna - crop the screen expose the whole sheet of film. Just add two vertical grid lines.

Me too.