My Jobo tank tried to kill me [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

atlcruiser

12-Nov-2011, 16:33

Hi all,
I have one of the big tanks for 810 that I traded my kidney for...thanks Greg :)

I got really tired of tapping the top of the tank off so I popped for the foot pump. As usual I saw no need for directions or any sort of google search.

I finished the fixer then drained it. I set the tank on the table and inserted the end of the hose into the top. I then used my other hand to pump the pump. The whole idea of "foot" pump was dismissed by me. As I pumped the resistance increased. It got to the point that I had to lean my elbow onto the pump to increase the pressure. As I leaned over to use my elbow my face was right above the tank. I began to think this might not be the correct application of the pump.

It was right about then that the top came off with a mighty pop. i believe it was moving right about the speed of sound. it missed my head but i was covered in fixer. The top bounced off my thomas safelight then took out an entire shelf of storage bottles.

This is lawsuit territory :)

vinny

12-Nov-2011, 16:39

Not the first time i've heard of this. too much pressure can also crack the walls of that $600 tank.

jayabbas

12-Nov-2011, 16:42

Ahh--the smell of fixer all over one's body -- glorious hell. At least it ain't bleach-fix !

ROL

12-Nov-2011, 16:52

Ah yes, the tray (processing) fairies are trying to tell you something...

atlcruiser

12-Nov-2011, 16:55

Ah yes, the tray (processing) fairies are trying to tell you something...

yep.......I agree with that

Brian Ellis

12-Nov-2011, 17:16

Reminds me of the time in a restaurant that the mustard wouldn't come out of the squeeze bottle so I applied real pressure with both hands - and sent it flying all over the other people at the table.

Fred L

12-Nov-2011, 17:21

Glad to hear you didn't get nailed by flying plastic ! There have been enough stories floating around about injuries from lids taking off.

I begin my wash with the film in the drums to help clean things out as I hate fixer stains ;) Hopefully you'll be using the foot pump and work it real sloooow. I give it a number of small pumps till it pops.

btw-I hate tray processing lol

Leigh

12-Nov-2011, 18:33

This is lawsuit territory :)
It certainly is, but I don't think you'll have to pay too much. Jobo is kind-hearted.

- Leigh

Greg Blank

12-Nov-2011, 18:51

Daniel Stone

12-Nov-2011, 19:03

I have a pump, but never use it. I had an experience similar to the OP the first time I used it ;).

Now I just put it on the floor, flat end on the ground. I then put both my feet(with shoes on of course ;)) kind of "wrapped around" the base of the drum. Bending over at the waist, I then slowly pry the lid off and inch around the lid, pulling a little bit at a time. Usually around 2 rotations or so(pulling up at 90deg intervals), the lid pops off quite easily.

-Dan

Brian C. Miller

12-Nov-2011, 19:53

If your equipment kills you, it's your fault! :)

#1, Don't press hard on the lid when seating it. Use just enough pressure to do the job.
#2, Foot pumps are operated by feet. Use them.
#3, Pour some hot water on the lid to expand the platic a bit. This will make it easier to remove.
#4, Lightly place a hand on top of the lid. This will prevent the top shooting off like a rocket.
#5, As you pump, note the pressure. When it starts building up, don't pump so hard.

The foot pump is great when used properly.
Take care, stay safe, wear protective gear, get somebody else to do it.

Vaughn

12-Nov-2011, 20:45

Know a photographer in Sacramento that almost lost an eye that way.

Beware!

Vaughn

tgtaylor

12-Nov-2011, 20:57

It was right about then that the top came off with a mighty pop. i believe it was moving right about the speed of sound. it missed my head but i was covered in fixer. The top bounced off my thomas safelight then took out an entire shelf of storage bottles.
This is lawsuit territory :)

The Affirmative Defense for such a lawsuit would be the blatant stupidity of the Plaintiff. As obvious to anyone that has regularly used the foot pump with Jobo drums, you slowly build up pressure within the drum until it gently "pops" and you can then remove it with your fingertips.

What a yo-yo.

Thomas

atlcruiser

12-Nov-2011, 21:12

The Affirmative Defense for such a lawsuit would be the blatant stupidity of the Plaintiff.
Thomas

It not like I dont admit how stupid this entire episode was!

Leigh

12-Nov-2011, 21:35

It not like I dont admit how stupid this entire episode was!
David,

You can't take all the credit. :D

It's an abominably bad design. I'm amazed it ever made it to market.

- Leigh

dsphotog

13-Nov-2011, 00:27

Just use one hand to lightly control the force & hold the stopper into the lid, apply light force on the pump, don't stomp on it! I've never had a problem.

IanMazursky

13-Nov-2011, 01:12

Glad to hear you are able to make good use of that stuff :) Over the years I have acquired lots of equipment related injuries. The favorite is the tripod head that does not lock quite enough...you put the camera on it looks solid. Pick the pod with the camera up and shoulder it only to have the camera turn sideways and bonk you on the head...my favorite!

Would be mine to except i did it with my 12x20 Korona! That required a bunch of Tylenol and an ice pack.
I love the phrase "Live and learn”. To learn, hopefully you live :D

I also did the same jobo thing with a 3063, except i didn’t have a foot pump and there was no way i could get the lid off with counter top.
I got frustrated and used my mouth (after washing the cog well), you can imagine the hurt from that.
No teeth broken but man that was close. After that incident i bought a few rubber stoppers, drilled them out and added some tubing.
Now i just blow into the end of the tubing and the lid pops off. Much safer then mouth method and i thinks its less destructive then the foot pump.
When i went by a friends place, i saw stress fractures and one rupture from his aggressive use of the foot pump.

taulen

13-Nov-2011, 02:10

Fill the tank with water to the rim. Then use the pump. Water doesnt compress and expand like air.

RawheaD

13-Nov-2011, 02:11

I remember when I first got my Expert Tank (3010) with the pump (luckily), I said to myself "People pay outrageous prices for these pumps; I bet I'd easily be able to take the lid off without it!"

So, after my first processing with the tank, I set it on the floor, leaned down, and absolutely positively knowing this would work because I'd tried it earlier, when the tank was empty, I cupped my hand around my mouth, and, with a nice seal around my mouth and the tank, blew hard into the opening. Nothing. Another blow. Nothing. Third blow, and the lid popped off straight into my mouth, and I got a real good cut on my upper lip.

I've been a big fan of the pump since then ;)

Leigh

13-Nov-2011, 02:16

Fill the tank with water to the rim. Then use the pump.
That would make it very difficult to cover oneself with fixer. :p ;)

- Leigh

atlcruiser

13-Nov-2011, 05:10

Alan Butcher

13-Nov-2011, 05:47

As mentioned previously fill tank completely with water, then it typically takes only a partial pump to remove the lid with no drama. Works fine every time.
--
Alan

morlinghaus

13-Nov-2011, 09:01

hi
first time i used an expert drum the lid came off like a rocket. now, i always put the drum on the floor with a towel under it, a towel loosely draped on top and pump carefully. did it it hundreds of times without issues.
cheers
christoph morlinghaus

jayabbas

13-Nov-2011, 10:24

Looks like Jobo is the lucky company -- a lot of you photographers seem to use their equipment. Coulda, shoulda bought stock !

Richard M. Coda

13-Nov-2011, 10:43

J. Fada

13-Nov-2011, 14:43

I have a 3010 and can't remember ever having to use the pump but I don't put the lid on so tight that I need to either. I just press down on the top until it is just snug. The top usually comes off easily by wrapping my hands around the tank and pressing up with my thumbs.

I do get a "cautious" feeling when I put the lid on. I don't remember that far back but I wouldn't doubt if the same thing happened to me. Maybe the lid rocketed off and hit me in the head so I don't remember. Who knows.

I am glad someone posted the water idea. I hope I remember that if I ever get a stuck lid.

psychoanalyst

13-Nov-2011, 15:03

ljsegil

13-Nov-2011, 16:05

yeah, but if you put water in the drum the film will get wet.
LJS

polyglot

13-Nov-2011, 16:26

I am surprised that they didn't build the same red-ring locking mechanism into the 3xxx tanks that they did for the 2xxx tanks. The red rings are great but the friction-fit on the expert drums is truly awful, especially in light of the knowledge that they already had a better latching mechanism implemented, even if it was a different radius.

Sirius Glass

13-Nov-2011, 16:58

I have a 3010 Drum and I use the footpump. I keep my hand on the lid. Never a problem.

Roger Cole

13-Nov-2011, 18:01

Looks like Jobo is the lucky company -- a lot of you photographers seem to use their equipment. Coulda, shoulda bought stock !

There's a guy who's talking about building something very similar, with maybe a few improvements here and there. He might accept a backer. I saw a thread a while back on APUG.

It does seem to me that given the price of used Jobo stuff and the number of people still doing darkroom work or even coming from digital and getting into it for the first time, there would be enough market for a small company to make items serving a similar function. Phototherm fans can talk about how much better their processors are - and jolly well ought to be considering the price, especially if you want to do 4x5. But a lot of the Jobo stuff (maybe not these - I've never actually seen an Expert drum IRL) is a combination of "made well enough to be fully functional without being made so overly well as to drive up the price) with some really good design ideas - and maybe a few bad ones like this. I have a 1524 I use not only on the processor but as my preferred inversion tank. I have others but the Jobo loads easiest and uses the least solution.

Sigh. Someone steal the designs and bring 'em back!

John Kasaian

13-Nov-2011, 18:28

None of these situations with a Unicolor processor---plus they are dirt cheap! :D

atlcruiser

13-Nov-2011, 19:12

I have some unicolor stuff but it will NOT do 5 sheets of 810 perfectly but the JOBO will :)

Peter De Smidt

13-Nov-2011, 20:14

I've used a 5x7/4x5 expert drum with foot pump for years. Everything worked well. Then I bought a new 8x10 Expert drum, luckily back when Jobo USA was still around. Well, I had the same problem, i.e. the lid not popping off even with dangerous amounts of air pressure. Obviously, Jobo had some quality control issues with the drum/lid fit. The solution, though, is pretty simple: I do what Daniel outlined earlier.

I like the Jobo for the even development and temp control.

Greg Blank

13-Nov-2011, 20:27

He might get sued if they are too similar, Jobo still owns the patents to the machines and they are still producing the drums.

That said, as long as we can repair them there is really no need to bring them back.

There's a guy who's talking about building something very similar, with maybe a few improvements here and there. He might accept a backer. I saw a thread a while back on APUG.

bring 'em back!

Larry Gebhardt

14-Nov-2011, 08:26

I just tap the edges of the lid on my sink (or a 2x4). Go gently around the drum and it pops off easily. The pump startles me every time I use it. Not a good feeling.

Sal Santamaura

14-Nov-2011, 10:34

There's a guy who's talking about building something very similar, with maybe a few improvements here and there. He might accept a backer. I saw a thread a while back on APUG...

He might get sued if they are too similar, Jobo still owns the patents to the machines and they are still producing the drums.

That said, as long as we can repair them there is really no need to bring them back.Bob Carnie, owner of Elevator Digital in Toronto, is the person Roger's referring to. Bob's not talking about "building something very similar." Rather, since he has and continuously uses quite a collection of Jobo drums/tanks, he is in the process of having designed an 'industrial strength' machine that would permit them to continue in use after his Jobo processor(s) pass the point of repair, i.e. parts no longer available. Since that time has not yet come, Bob isn't building his new machine yet, instead continuing to run with all Jobo equipment.

I think that, when Jobo parts eventually cease to be available, the last thing Jobo would do is sue someone who builds a machine compatible with their drums and tanks. Especially since it will look nothing like any Jobo processor.

Roger Cole

14-Nov-2011, 10:59

EDIT: Ok, it was Bob and sorry for any confusion but Sal is correct. I had read too many of the other posts in the thread after coming to it late.

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum172/69396-my-jobos-their-last-legs.html

I didn't know they were still in business at all much less producing drums.

frotog

14-Nov-2011, 11:50

He might get sued if they are too similar, Jobo still owns the patents to the machines and they are still producing the drums.

That said, as long as we can repair them there is really no need to bring them back.

Still producing drums? Really? Where did you get this info and can you provide a link?

Asher Kelman

14-Nov-2011, 11:59

Why use air? A tube with a rubber stopper connected to the faucet will gently lift the top. As mentioned above water is not a spring like air when under pressure. Read the excellent post in APUG here (http://www.apug.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-48913.html). The picture of the connector to the Jobo tank is at the bottom of the page.

Asher

Kevin Crisp

14-Nov-2011, 12:22

"I'm telling ya baby, that's not mine."

Jim C.

14-Nov-2011, 13:15

Fill the tank with water to the rim. Then use the pump. Water doesnt compress and expand like air.

Exactly what i do, except I machined a plug for the opening and use a length
of tubing and a 50CC syringe the lid just lifts off, no violent pop.

Greg Blank

14-Nov-2011, 13:46

You can read my article in View Camera July and August or PM-me, in the article I summerize the history of Jobo and my connection as a trained repair person for the processors. Aside from that, you may not like the price.

Still producing drums? Really? Where did you get this info and can you provide a link?

frotog

14-Nov-2011, 14:45

Yes. I know something about the history of Jobo too. Retailers possessing NOS is not the same as "currently being manufactured".

Roger Cole

13-Feb-2012, 17:36

There's a guy who's talking about building something very similar, with maybe a few improvements here and there. He might accept a backer. I saw a thread a while back on APUG.

It does seem to me that given the price of used Jobo stuff and the number of people still doing darkroom work or even coming from digital and getting into it for the first time, there would be enough market for a small company to make items serving a similar function. Phototherm fans can talk about how much better their processors are - and jolly well ought to be considering the price, especially if you want to do 4x5. But a lot of the Jobo stuff (maybe not these - I've never actually seen an Expert drum IRL) is a combination of "made well enough to be fully functional without being made so overly well as to drive up the price) with some really good design ideas - and maybe a few bad ones like this. I have a 1524 I use not only on the processor but as my preferred inversion tank. I have others but the Jobo loads easiest and uses the least solution.

Sigh. Someone steal the designs and bring 'em back!

Bob Carnie, owner of Elevator Digital in Toronto, is the person Roger's referring to. Bob's not talking about "building something very similar." Rather, since he has and continuously uses quite a collection of Jobo drums/tanks, he is in the process of having designed an 'industrial strength' machine that would permit them to continue in use after his Jobo processor(s) pass the point of repair, i.e. parts no longer available. Since that time has not yet come, Bob isn't building his new machine yet, instead continuing to run with all Jobo equipment.

I think that, when Jobo parts eventually cease to be available, the last thing Jobo would do is sue someone who builds a machine compatible with their drums and tanks. Especially since it will look nothing like any Jobo processor.

EDIT: Ok, it was Bob and sorry for any confusion but Sal is correct. I had read too many of the other posts in the thread after coming to it late.

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum172/69396-my-jobos-their-last-legs.html

I didn't know they were still in business at all much less producing drums.

I just came across the thread I was thinking about on APUG after someone bumped it, and it was in fact NOT Bob. Bob has discussed what to do as his wear out. This fellow is talking about designing a new processor that does what a Jobo does, now that they aren't available new:

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum43/86867-thats-im-designing-building-my-own-film-processor.html

So of course I dug up this thread here. I knew it was another project I was thinking about. I hope someone succeeds in something similar.

Sal Santamaura

13-Feb-2012, 18:05

I just came across the thread I was thinking about on APUG after someone bumped it, and it was in fact NOT Bob. Bob has discussed what to do as his wear out. This fellow is talking about designing a new processor that does what a Jobo does, now that they aren't available new:

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum43/86867-thats-im-designing-building-my-own-film-processor.html

So of course I dug up this thread here. I knew it was another project I was thinking about. I hope someone succeeds in something similar.It's just two days shy of a year since Tony Juliano posted about his processor there. He was looking for backers to fund it; I doubt he'll succeed, since the market for something with all the functionality of a Jobo processor is very small today. That's why Jobo stopped building them, despite having already sunk its development costs.

Bob Carnie's approach is to fabricate an "industrial strength" device that will permit continued use of his Jobo tanks and drums, but without a lot of bells and whistles. He's said it will cost around $5k to build, which I believe will make it unsaleable to what remains of the amateur "mass market."

Greg Blank

13-Feb-2012, 19:20

We "Omega" continued to sell Jobo CPP2's even after Jobo initially decided to discontinue them. I with the help of Omega's VP convinced Jobo to continue making them for us for a while, the end result was a machine that resold at about 4K which was alot more than the roughly 2,600 I bought mine for in the mid 1980's. I have been upgrading some machines for a good bit less than that dollar "2,600" amount, though it does depend on condition and serial number.

I have now left Omega for good as of last week, surely Omega will not be supporting Jobo anything. I may or may not continue supplying parts pieces and repair service, I guess it will just depend on wether folks out there actually value doing analog photography enough to continue sending me repairs or purchasing parts. In the end I have accomplished what I started back to Omega to accomplish, that is to gain enough knowledge to fix and repair my own Cpp2 if the need occured.

It's just two days shy of a year since Tony Juliano posted about his processor there. He was looking for backers to fund it; I doubt he'll succeed, since the market for something with all the functionality of a Jobo processor is very small today. That's why Jobo stopped building them, despite having already sunk its development costs.

Bob Carnie's approach is to fabricate an "industrial strength" device that will permit continued use of his Jobo tanks and drums, but without a lot of bells and whistles. He's said it will cost around $5k to build, which I believe will make it unsaleable to what remains of the amateur "mass market."

Allen in Montreal

13-Feb-2012, 19:23

Fill the tank with water to the rim. Then use the pump. Water doesnt compress and expand like air.

+1 !!

Jim Andrada

14-Feb-2012, 13:31

I've had my 5 x 7 Linhof flip over and hit me in the head many times. So far no damage to the Linhof. Duhhhhh!

Jody_S

14-Feb-2012, 14:12

Great, something else to worry about. My usual stories of "I almost killed myself doing..." usually involve welders, gasoline, grinders and/or hot metal of some sort. And once a tractor with a wonky transmission, and a 5-ton boulder.

Did Jobo really make a tank that requires air pressure to remove the lid, with no means at all to limit pressure or the travel of said lid once liberated? Wow. Have they never heard of McDonalds coffee and little old ladies?

Tori Nelson

14-Feb-2012, 14:33

... As usual I saw no need for directions or any sort of google search.

Haha, it seems only men have replied to this post and not one of them has mentioned the above. LOL, 'nuff said!:p

SpeedGraphicMan

14-Feb-2012, 15:17

Sounds like those accursed photo-gremlins are at work yet again!

You just reminded me why I like tray development ;)

Jim Andrada

14-Feb-2012, 16:50

By the way, pressure vessels like boilers etc are tested with liquid, not air for all the reasons given above.

Greg Blank

14-Feb-2012, 20:29

Typically pressure vessels are X-rayed before adding liquid. I worked on a survey crew that oversaw 36" natural gas pipeline being installed throughout a densly populated metro area. Every weld was inspected using a robotic x ray car that took film exposures of the seam before it was lowered into the ditch, wrapped and covered with about 5 feet of dirt. Just prior to turning on and venting gas, they filled the whole shebang using fire hydrants. Not sure if they did the whole 10 mile stretch with water, we were at the end by then.

rwhb1

15-Feb-2012, 00:44

Guys, water is not compressible. You are supposed to fill the tank before pumping it up then there is no explosive force.

Russ

Jon Wilson

16-Feb-2012, 19:48

Use your foot to pump and ALWAYS keep your hands over the lid. Another tip... don't put the lid on too tight... makes it much easier to get it off later. And pump the foot pump gently, gradually building up pressure. Keeping water in it helps too.

This is the process I have followed over the years, but typically place the pump on the counter next to the drum. The key truly is keeping one's hand gently on the lid's top.

Keep joboing

atlcruiser

16-Feb-2012, 20:19

Ok...enough! :)

I got it now!

Who dug this post out form the depths!?

Roger Cole

16-Feb-2012, 22:51

Ok...enough! :)

I got it now!

Who dug this post out form the depths!?

Sorry, that was me, because I had mentioned someone trying to make a "modern Jobo" or such and someone said that was Bob Carnie just trying to make one deluxe model for his own use as his die, and I had agreed, then saw the real thread I was talking about so I dug this up to correct it...

I still think if something that does what a CPE2 does could be made and sold new for under $500 there would be a market. Maybe not enough to support a company the size Jobo was, but as a cottage industry for one guy or a couple of guys turning them out - yeah. In fact I'd pay a bit more than that for a brand new device that worked right. I don't know about patent problems if they worked with Jobo tanks though, regardless of how much the rest might differ.

ic-racer

18-Feb-2012, 14:03

Guys, water is not compressible. You are supposed to fill the tank before pumping it up then there is no explosive force.

Russ

If you actually fill it to the top, be warned. There is still an explosion of sorts; there is about a liter of water in the lid. When the lid comes off, realize that there is no bottom to contain this liter of water. Note to self: do this in the sink!

Greg Blank

19-Feb-2012, 06:52

Brian Ellis

19-Feb-2012, 13:07

My BTZS tubes required no instructions to use, never tried to kill me, never even threatened to injure me. They liked me, I liked them. And I didn't have to go through the gyrations described in some of the messages here to use them. Best of all, they demanded little money for their services, less than $100.

Greg Blank

19-Feb-2012, 14:48

Nothing against the BTZS tubes, but some folks have stated to me they are PITA to use. I have no experience to share personally but each person always has their own pet device they like to use - to each thier own. My drums have never tried to kill me and David was amusingly sharing an experience, I am sure this thread however will provide plenty of material for debate for years to come given the typical pediantic drivel some folks feel compelled to heap onto an ever increasing pile of hashed over refuse.

Roger Cole

19-Feb-2012, 15:29

Roger;

That is completely laugh worthy in my minds eye. 500 dollars is not an incentive for a production peice in the modern world in a niche market. Waiting for the few customers that actually process film to pony up that low dollar amount is paramount to going out of business and dying broke. Consider the average quality power tool purchased new, now consider a quality item made from a company that actually cares about the end result. Think Porter Cable versus, Skil saws or Black and Decker.

Laugh if you want. I'm thinking CPE2 because that's what I have, and if it can't be brought to market for no more than 50% over the price of fully functional used units, it's not going to sell, at least not while such used units are available. On thinking about it I might go $700 or $750 if it were well made and backed by a company that had parts and offered service. Maybe still not realistic, but that's the way it is. Offer me a brand new CPE2+ for north of $1000 and I'll ask what you're smoking, when I have one and can buy another for less than $500 used.

Now make it a CPP and it could jump to $2000 with the Expert tank compatibility. Laugh again if you like. ;)

My BTZS tubes required no instructions to use, never tried to kill me, never even threatened to injure me. They liked me, I liked them. And I didn't have to go through the gyrations described in some of the messages here to use them. Best of all, they demanded little money for their services, less than $100.

BTZS tubes are fine for what they are. But they offer no temperature control on their own, work only with sheet film, can't do anything but black and white etc. My little CPE2 has its own temperature controlled water bath and can process up to 12 sheets of 4x5 and/or roll film formats separately or together, in black and white, C41, E6, and probably some less used processes I'm not thinking of. Last night I developed a roll of 120 Foma 400 along with three 4x5 sheets of the same film, all together. BTZS tubes can't do that.

Oh yeah, I hate fooling with print drums but I could also process RA4, any remaining Ilfochrome I could find, and even black and white RC prints if I were so inclined.