Which colour film do you think will die out first?

[tim atherton]

A purely practical question - which form of colour sheet film do you think is most likely to start dying out first...? (especially 8x10) - Print or Transparency

Already in transparency Agfa APX II is gone. The likes of Astia are special order only?

Thoughts

[Jim Galli]

Kodak's :>))

[tim atherton]

very funny Jim.

Also, it serves me right for not lookign at print film that much, but after seeing a photo by Ricard Avedon in the latest NYorker, I only just realised you can get Portra 400 in 8x10 - doh!

[David A. Goldfarb]

I think Joel Meyerowitz has also been shooting mainly Portra in 8x10".

[tim atherton]

Maybe it's just too much crystal ball gazing, but I guess I'm trying to figure out which of the markets that use these types of films is going to go digital big time soonest (I would think landscape/documentary people like Meyerowitz and Misrach - who have already lost their favourtie VPS and adjusted to new emulsions, are a microsopic part of whatever market there is).

So who's still using colour materials in volume - architectural photographers? Fashion? Auto brochure shooters?

I suppose behind this is the feeling that even if Kodak and/or Ilford dump or cut back on B&W there are still likely to be smaller scale producers picking up the specialised market. But colour is another story.

tim

[Eric Rose]

You could always learn to hand color like they did in the old days before color. I use NPS 4x5 exclusively for color so I hope it stays around for awhile.

[Ted Harris]

Tim,





I, like you, worry about the rapid decline of choices in the 8x10 world. I just looked and while it feels like choices are diminishing daily I found 5 Color negative choices, 9 transparancy choices (excluding duplicating films) and 10 black and white offerings. I jsut did a quick check of one of the major mail order suppliers looking at what is supposedly in stock. Who knows waht the reality is? I suspect the story is much grimmer once you go to order.





I also suspect that there will be a wide range of 4x5 transparancy film available long after the 8x10 choices are down to one or two. Same for black and white emulsions in 8x10.





Frustrating but I am not ready to sell my Phillips 8x10 yet.

[James Driscoll]

chrome....talk to anyone working in a large city in the photo world and you will see that everyone (with the exception of product and architecture) has switched over to neg film. All of the fashion, portrait, and editorial, and travel photographers have switched.In some cases the photo editors are actually demanding Neg. film for its more "sub-dued" look. The big catalog shooters are going to digital in droves...I don't even think any major large catalog is still shot with film. Here in NYC...MOMA, and the MET have gone digital for all of their in house shooting (not a small thing...the MET has something like 12 full time photographers) and we now have publications that are shot entirely digital...shooting product that used to demand chrome. (eg:Lucky)

In NYC, 8x10 is going through a period of re-birth commerically. But it is 160NC and 400NC that is being sold by the case to portrait and fashion guys in NYC.

Of course there are still guys shooting chrome....of the "biggies" Richard Burbridge still shoots tons of velvia in 4x5 and 8x10 for his portraits, and there are "old-timers" who still like working with the material. Plus E6 service in NYC is 2.5 hours C-41 is usually 24 hours.

[Jim_3565]

I know that the National Gallery of Art uses Ektachrome 64T (EPY) to catalogue the collection, which will eventually be searchable in its entirety on the web. However, I also know that a move to scanning digital backs for everything is in the works. I'm sure my beloved EPY is not long for this world.

Since it is available in Readyloads, however, I'm hopeful that Kodak will discontinue those first and at least give me a little warning.

[John Cook]

The most vulnerable films seem to be:

(1) Anything larger than 35mm. The larger, the more in danger.

(2) Anything made by Kodak or Agfa, both of whom are determined to get out of the film business. And soon!

(3) Anything not easily nor quickly developed, such as Kodachrome.

(4) Anything the novice, casual family happy-snappers aren't using. There are many more amateurs than professionals - they drive the market.

[andy bettles]

Tim, I am a London based large format photographer who shoots using tungsten lights with a preference for 8x10 colour neg. Kodak stopped supplying 100T 8x10(tungsten neg) in the UK this year at roughly the same time that Fuji stopped supplying their equivalent tungsten colour neg. I was then faced with the prospect of shooting on slide film or shooting on 4x5 for most of my stuff. Luckily I can bring 8x10 film back from NYC when I work there but it has given me a really sharp wake up call as to the motives and ethics of the film companies. I really don't think that neg. will be around for that much longer in 8x10 form even in the states as it seems to be completely market driven, no sales=no profit =no film!! I feel kind of angry that a new working practice is literally being forced upon me,I know that change is a good and positive force but I(rather than Kodak) would like to dictate the speed of transition. I love using tungsten light ,wrapping light around objects,layering tones and gentle gradations down,I find that harder with strobe and nowhere near as subtle. Sad to see my sinar getting dusty in the corner!! Andy.

[Steve Hamley]

Tim,

I spoke with Keith Canham earlier this year (about 4 months) and he stated that he was having trouble keeping up with 8x10 orders, and that 8x10s were flying off the shelves. This has been substantiated by another large dealer I've spoken with recently.

The reasons for 8x10 camera sales increasing vary or are not known, but they do seem to be rising. I'd like to believe 8x10 film choices will be increasing, but may lag camera sales. Maybe at the worst, increasing 8x10 and larger format camera sales will shore up those film producers who choose to continue large format film.

My 2 cents: We'd all like to believe there is a direct correlation between 8x10 camera sales and the viability of 8x10 film, but as an employee of a large company, I can say that large companies, at least in the short term, respond to many more things than seem logical - like an apparent lag time for every major brand of 8x10 camera indicating increasing demand for film. Examples include misguided marketing departments or other business trend watchers who ignore realistic sales indicators (versus fashionable "trends") until they are behind the curve.

I think we can take some comfort that if the use (as opposed to sales) of 8x10 and larger cameras continues, the film market will eventually follow. But then I'm an optimist with a new 8x10 on order.

Thanks!

Steve

[Ted Harris]

Another point is location. Just because a film is unavailable in the US doesn't mean it is out of production. For example, I believe that Agfa RSX II 100 in 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10 is alive and well in markets outside of North America. Just that the professional market appears to be of little or no interest to Agfa's US distribution network. The same sort of behavior hs been true of Fuji in the past too.

[tim atherton]

ted, have your researches turned up anything new about APX II?

[tim atherton]

> I spoke with Keith Canham earlier this year (about 4 months) and he stated > that he was having trouble keeping up with 8x10 orders, and that 8x10s > were flying off the shelves. This has been substantiated by another large > dealer I've spoken with recently.

I'm afraid I don't think Canham selling a few extra cameras this year will make a difference. (my Phillips 8x10 is ser # 447 and I imagine that's over the whole life of the Compact II - we aren't talking thousands of cameras here).

It's pros in NY or LA shooting models or cars and using a hundred or more sheets of 8x10 a day in a shoot that make a difference - and they are the ones stopping using it in droves.

[Bill_1856]

Autochrome.

[Ted Harris]

Tim,

Assume you mean RSX since APX is Agfa's black & white pro film. As for the RSX, what prompted my last post was that I just came across a UK Technical Data Sheet for all Agfa Professional films. The publication is dated 7/03 and that was what set me thinking.





I will email it to you. Anyone else interested please let me know.





Ted

[tim atherton]

sorry - yes RSX - I was jsut doig google searches...

silverprint still lists it in 4x5 and 8x10 - I'll try emailing them

tim

[Ted Harris]

Silverprint is a new one on me .. do you have the website??

[Manuel Gomes Teixeira]

www.silverprint.co.uk !!!

[Henry Ambrose]

I don't know what film will go away first but yesterday I asked about large format processing at my lab while picking up some 4X5 color neg. They said I was one of a very few who bring in ANY sheet film C41, but not to worry since as long as they were running C41 roll film my 4X5 would run with it. (8X10 too for that matter) We still get approximate 2 hour service on C41 here (depending on if you get it to them at the correct time to make the run) Any lab thats running a dip and dunk process will be able to dip and dunk your sheet film along with the other stuff they're running. I'm surprised that its gone to 24 hours in NYC - that may be the scariest thing I've read in this thread.

The local photo store carries about 10 to 1 transparency to negative in 4X5. They will typically have only two or three 10 sheet boxes of maybe 2 kinds of color neg 4X5 in stock. I have to be careful about keeping an adequate stock on hand myself.

Also I doubt that ANYONE is shooting "a hundred or more sheets of 8x10 a day" at 3D objects. Maybe some copy operation somewhere still but even that I doubt. I think we're headed toward much higher film prices for large format color film and probably fewer and slower choices for processing. Large institutional users will be able to make special orders of LF film for some time I suspect. Those users buying on contract are probably what drives large format film now. And we smaller users may survive off that. But as others have said those users are increasingly switching to digital. I developed, trained and equipped a digital archiving system for the State Museum here in 1996. Well over 100,000 objects in the collection, all to be photographed with a digital camera - no film. And that was seven years ago! Lots more have switched to digital since.

[stefan marquardt]

hi, here in germany agfa rsx 100II is still available in all formats, including 8x10inch (for 66 Euros). regards stefan

[tim atherton]

stefan,

Is that actually on the shelves? I just asked Silverprint and they said their 8x10 stock was gone and there was no more now from Agfa UK - so maybe Germany is the only place left where they sell it? No more in Canada, the US and UK?

I was also told by Agfa Canada that it was discontinued by the factory in 8x10

[stefan marquardt]

tim, i just phoned up my supplier, an he told me: they dont keep it on stock becouse they can´t sell enough of it. but the would order it (abroad). He had no information as beeing discontinued (but then again, he just might not be informed enough). stefan

[Mike Chini]

All 35mm chrome films except maybe Velvia, Provia and a few others (I can't believe Kodachrome still exists). Then maybe med. format chromes. I think everything else will be around for a while. Maybe 8x10 chromes might disappear as well before long.

[James Driscoll]

Also I doubt that ANYONE is shooting "a hundred or more sheets of 8x10 a day" at 3D objects. Maybe some copy operation somewhere still but even that I doubt. I think we're headed toward much higher film prices for large format color film and probably fewer and slower choices for processing.



I think the people who are shooting 8x10 professionally are the ones shooting lots of it a day. In NYC...people like Steven Meisel, Martin Schoeler, Michael Thompson, and Avedon are still shooting 8x10. The (with the exception of Schoeler) all use 100-200 film holders A DAY on a shoot. The world of Fashion has such big budgets that they can do this.



It sounds crazy...but I have either packed orders (I used to work in Rental in NYC) or watched these guys shoot (I had to repair stuff on a Thompson shoot once) and it is MIND BOGGILING how much money is spent just on the film. Meisel's lab bill for a shoot is over $8000 he wants every sheet of 400NC and Tri-X CONTACTED in addtion to the 100's of sheets of 8x10 polaroid he shoots.



If it is possible for one person to keep a format alive...it is Steven Meisel!!! The worst situation we ever had was one day both Meisel and Avedon wanted 100+ 8x10 holders each!!! They both also use 3+ 8x10 polaroid processors on a shoot!!!



So it is possible to shoot that much 8x10 a day....in fact more than a 100 sheets!!!

[Julio Fernandez]

Velvia 100F.