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View Full Version : Sinar F: How to make fine adjustments to height + focus ?



Ken Lee
10-Nov-2011, 13:11
I have a Sinar P, where both front and rear standards provide geared movements. I also have a Sinar F standard, which I use to support a long bellows when shooting with a 610mm APO Nikkor (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showpost.php?p=682128&postcount=1017) (you can see the F standard).

Because the F standard is lighter, it occurred to me to make a hybrid, with one F standard and one P standard. I tried it in the field. It's lighter for sure, but I can't figure out how to raise and lower the F standard with any fine control. The same is true for focusing: how can anyone focus a Sinar F ? Are there front and rear standards for the F ? Am I missing something ?

Drew Wiley
10-Nov-2011, 13:22
The front and rear standards are distinct, so that the focus knob for each is always on
the right side from the operator position behind. Unfotunately, you seem to have the
"multipurpose" standard which is not particularly strong. The official rear standard for
an f2 would be a lot more solid. I'd leave the P standard on the front because you have a fairly heavy lens. It's dilemmas like this one which have converted me to the
older Norma components.

Ken Lee
10-Nov-2011, 14:23
Sorry - I was unclear. I showed the photo of the 610mm to show the standard I have. In this post, I am asking about using one F standard and one P standard - with lenses of normal length.

My F standard doesn't appear to have any focusing knob: only something to lock and unlock. Also, there appears to be no mechanism to raise and lower the standard, other than unlocking it and pulling it up. In short, I don't seem to have any geared movement of any kind, even for focusing.

That's what the universal version is ?

Looking at this Sinar Catalog (http://www.kenleegallery.com/pdf/Sinar_system_katalog.pdf) from 2000/2001, I don't see any F standards per se (page 20).

Bob McCarthy
10-Nov-2011, 14:31
The modularity of the sustem makes this all work.

You can use an F rear with focus as a front for your hybrid, I believe. I dont see a reason for geared front focus. The front standard moves precisely on the rail with no looseness or grabbyness. Just slide it back and forth until you get good focus. You can do a tiny touch up from rear if you need to do so.

For rise and fall, the control rods that you push up from the bottom have some stiction and are not loosy-goosy. You can leave a little tension on the lock and they move fine without slipping. As easy to use as a P. Ive owned both and still have an F. Tougher to explain than to use in real life

bob

Drew Wiley
10-Nov-2011, 14:38
All the actual front and rear F standards were equipped with fine focus control. So again, what you have in the picture is neither, but an intermediate intended only for
bellows support. It can be used, but not ideally. I'd be looking for a suitable F2 standard.

Alan Gales
10-Nov-2011, 14:41
Ken,

I also own a Sinar P and I have a Sinar F laying around here that I bought for the Sinar shutter that came with it.

The F front standard just has a knob on the bottom for rough focus. The F rear standard has the same knob for rough focus and it also has a geared fine focus.

You are right in that there is no geared movement of any kind on the front standard. The Sinar F is no P but is a lot lighter for going out in the field.

Alan

Bob McCarthy
10-Nov-2011, 14:48
All the actual front and rear F standards were equipped with fine focus control. So again, what you have in the picture is neither, but an intermediate intended only for
bellows support. It can be used, but not ideally. I'd be looking for a suitable F2 standard.

Drew, the first release of the camera did not have geared focus on the front standard. The F2 definately does, not sure about the model between, F1 I think.

Anyway geared focus in not necessary.

The photo is of an F model front standard. (used as bellows support)

bob

Ken Lee
10-Nov-2011, 15:32
Thanks fellers - you're right: that standard can be used for focusing if necessary. Sinars are so nicely machined that you can adjust the focus in tiny increments - using firm finger pressure - and it doesn't slip.

To address my main concern, I put a little wax on the rise/fall rods. Now the standard moves up and down nicely.

Drew Wiley
10-Nov-2011, 16:14
I think you're right, Bob; but it was pre-F1, probably what they called the F+. The clampy thing at the bottom of the standard only slides so-so compared to the full
enclosure style. No big deal. You just have to be close and then adjust the rear focus.
But the whole related standard was weaker than the next generation. Should be fine
except for big telephotos or lenses in heavy 3 shutters.

Leigh
10-Nov-2011, 16:29
The P rear with the F front is called the model C. Standard catalog configuration.

- Leigh

Drew Wiley
10-Nov-2011, 16:35
Yeah, but there were different options over the years for the front std. I'd imagine that
a "C" made up with an 8x10 P rear and the thin clampy 4x5 multipurpose std adjusted
all the way up would have be very susceptible to vibrations, esp with a big plasmat.
But I've seen em done that way.

Bob McCarthy
10-Nov-2011, 19:04
With a 8x10 rear, only a F2 front end will work. The early F's didn't have enough rise to work. The rise rod's (?) were lengthen to allow the C conversion or use with the 8x10 F2.

B

Drew Wiley
11-Nov-2011, 09:31
There was an 8X10 F front used with the 8X10 C, then later one could use the longer
f2 4X5 rods, which were so long as to be an actual annoyance on 4x5. I trimmed em
down to fit my pack better.

Jerry Flynn
11-Nov-2011, 09:50
I would just add to Drew's comment that there was a special fron standard for the "F" series that was fitted to the 8x10 and 5X7 (yes, there was actually a 5X7 F2 offered). I only used an 8X10 F2 once, and i believe the support rods were thicker and spring-loaded to support heavier lenses. This was a long tim ago and I have only seen 1 or 2 for sale over the last 10-12 years.

The original f and f+ as well as the F1 cameras used the multipurpose standeard as the front standard - no focusing drive. The focusing drive is a differentiator of a F2 from an F1.

I can also verify that the regular F front standards do not rise high enough to center on the 8X10 back.

Drew Wiley
11-Nov-2011, 11:20
The early 8x10 C configuration used alum rods on the front std. The true later f2 8x10
used larger diameter steel rods on the front, which were much more substantial than
those on the 4x5 and 5x7. Somewhere I've got a very fat early catalog with all this
info in there.

rdenney
12-Nov-2011, 13:30
The F-series front standard for 8x10 use is different in many ways from the 4x5 and 5x7 applications. The clamp mechanism for the rise columns is different, with a different centering and clamping approach. The columns are also longer, to allow the front standard to rise up more with respect to the center of the 8x10 rear frame.

The F front standard is a clamp-on standard that is also used as a multi-purpose standard for the P series. It does not include geared focus, but it does have a real advantage as an intermediate standard: It can be mounted on the rail without sliding over the end, and therefore it can be mounted between the front and rear standard without removing either. There were changes, from looking at the service manual, but these are at the repair level. The F1 front standard differs in more ways, but mostly in the clamp screw for the rise lock. It's still the multipurpose standard for the P series. There was, during the F period, a "multipurpose standard II" that included a geared focus. But it was identical to the F rear standard--it uses the same parts diagrams in the service manual.

The F2 front standard uses a solid front block, like the rear standard, but opposite hand. It provides geared focus. There were a few changes in it over the years that matter at the repair level only, except for the introduction of the independent shift lock in 1990.

As Ken has discovered, none of the F-series or multipurpose standards have geared rise and fall.

Rick "looking at the service manual right now" Denney

Armin Seeholzer
12-Nov-2011, 14:53
but it does have a real advantage as an intermediate standard: It can be mounted on the rail without sliding over the end, and therefore it can be mounted between the front and rear standard without removing either.

This I like the most because it saves much time, for an extention and aditional bellows for macro work etc.

Ken Lee
12-Nov-2011, 15:45
"This I like the most because it saves much time, for an extention and aditional bellows for macro work etc."

... and that's what I intend to use it for: an intermediate support. I'm spoiled perhaps, but I really like being able to control front tilt and rise from behind the camera in quick time. After all, the P does stand for "perfection" :) so I'll put the P front standard back where it belongs.