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View Full Version : PyroCat HD and TMY - my times seem off?



Richard K.
7-Nov-2011, 07:18
According to the Massive, the developing time for TMY (at 200 ISO) sheet film at 70 DEG should be 11 min. I found those negs to be a bit weak and like the result at around 18 to 19 min. Is it me, my water, or has anyone else experienced similar?

I'm not a sensitometrist so I'm basically just looking at the negs and how they initially print and just like the longer time better.

Seems to be a nice combination BTW, anyone else like this?

Ken Lee
7-Nov-2011, 07:39
Seems very long to me. You didn't mention dilution - nor did you mention temperature. :)

Richard Wasserman
7-Nov-2011, 08:00
I rate TMY-2 at 250EI and develop in Pyrocat HD for 18 min @72 agitating every 3 minutes.

I agree that it is a very nice combination indeed.

I wouldn't worry about what times other people are using. As you know it's the results that count...

Jay DeFehr
7-Nov-2011, 08:13
Richard,

It seems very long to me too, but I've seen a lot of people reporting similar times, so I wouldn't worry about it.

Richard K.
7-Nov-2011, 08:21
Seems very long to me. You didn't mention dilution - nor did you mention temperature. :)

I mentioned temperature but not the 1:1:100 dilution...:)

Bob McCarthy
7-Nov-2011, 08:22
I have found the Pyrocat negatives just look a little thin but print beautifully.

I'm using 1-1-100 at 14 minutes ( 70 deg.) and the negatives are very nice. While I rate the film at 400, i look (and meter) a little deeper into the shadows, so I'm likely rating the film 1/3 to 1/2 slower than rating.

Jobo processing (continuous), btw.

bob

Richard K.
7-Nov-2011, 08:23
I rate TMY-2 at 250EI and develop in Pyrocat HD for 18 min @72 agitating every 3 minutes.

I agree that it is a very nice combination indeed.

I wouldn't worry about what times other people are using. As you know it's the results that count...

Totally agree on all 3 points, Richard. :D

Ken Lee
7-Nov-2011, 08:30
I mentioned temperature but not the 1:1:100 dilution...:)

Oops - You are right. I missed that. Sorry.

There are many variables, like thermometer, water, agitation. Are you scanning or printing ? If analog printing, the color of the stain may affect your results, depending on the brand of paper, the color of the light source, etc. Also, if your film has residual magenta color, that will affect things. The magenta color can be removed with Sodium Sulfite (1 teaspoon per liter) after fixing. I found that TMY really needs that treatment with that developer.

Robert Ley
7-Nov-2011, 08:44
This has been my experience as well. I now process TMY-2 with Pyrocat HD at 1.5:1.5:100 for 13min at 24degC. My first attempt was much the same as Richards and I then tried 2:2:100 at 10 min and it was too hot(over-development).

Is the general consensus that the new emulsion needs different development times?

I also routinely use a 5min pre-wash. Could this be raising my times with pyrocat?

Richard Wasserman
7-Nov-2011, 08:53
This has been my experience as well. I now process TMY-2 with Pyrocat HD at 1.5:1.5:100 for 13min at 24degC. My first attempt was much the same as Richards and I then tried 2:2:100 at 10 min and it was too hot(over-development).

Is the general consensus that the new emulsion needs different development times?

I also routinely use a 5min pre-wash. Could this be raising my times with pyrocat?


I use a pre-wash also, and I forgot to mention that I dilute 1:1:100.

Ken Lee
7-Nov-2011, 09:06
Another question is which version of the developer are you using? If it's formulated in water instead of Glycol - and if it's old - then the strength may be waning. I found it cheapest and easiest to mix myself.

And then there's the issue of volume: if you are exceeding or stretching the capacity of a given volume (too many sheets, insufficient volume) then it will take longer to develop.

Leonard Alecu
7-Nov-2011, 09:14
I develop my 8x10 TMAX400 by inspection in Pyrochat HD, 1:1:100 / 72F / 15-22 min.

For scanning I found this combination to be perfect.

TMAX400/Pyrochat HD/200 ASA

http://s5.postimage.org/6ez2qlaut/image.jpg

However, for contact printing I like more TMAX400 / Pyro ABC. (160 ASA)

http://s5.postimage.org/avrfp9p2t/Iceland_Stones.jpg

Richard K.
7-Nov-2011, 09:15
Lots to think about, thanks Ken. I have just ordered fresh in Glycol and I'll see what that does when I get it. You've raised some valid points though! It seems though (Leonard et al) that the longer time is not anomalous...

Leonard, amazing images, especially the first one! Where was that taken?

Leonard Alecu
7-Nov-2011, 09:23
Thank you Richard,

It was taken in Iceland 2010.

Your,
LA

Ken Lee
7-Nov-2011, 09:40
Another appreciation for the Iceland photos.

I've seen a fair number of iceberg photos, and they usually leave me cold :rolleyes: - but that wide one is really magical. It breathes, it's mysterious, has a strong feeling of presence, exquisite detail, sublime composition... it has it all !

Leonard Alecu
7-Nov-2011, 09:52
Thanks Ken, your words are flattering.

Warm Regards,
LA

Richard K.
7-Nov-2011, 10:30
|||| It breathes, it's mysterious, has a strong feeling of presence, exquisite detail, sublime composition... it has it all !|||||

Um, yeah, that's what I MEANT to say!!!:rolleyes: :D :)

Andrew O'Neill
7-Nov-2011, 13:42
Hi Richard,
I really like TMY and pyrocat-hd. I have found that a dilution of 1+1+50 (10ml + 10ml + 500ml) works better for me for rotary (BTZS tube). These negs are usually for carbon transfer, but still print nicely on VC papers.
I used to mix pyrocat-hd in glycol, but found it to be a waste of time and money as I used up the developer pretty quickly. Glycol is great if you don't develop film so often. Non-glycol pyrocat-hd is good for 4 months in my experience. Wear gloves if you are handling it.

Leonard Alecu
9-Nov-2011, 01:42
I used to mix pyrocat-hd in glycol, but found it to be a waste of time and money as I used up the developer pretty quickly.

Andrew,

You can buy Pyrocat HD in glycoll or non-glycol at the same price from Photographer's Formulary. You do not have to wast time and money for this.

http://stores.photoformulary.com/-strse-Developers-cln-Film/searchpath/126320637/start/31/total/43/Categories.bok

Your,
LA

IanG
9-Nov-2011, 02:53
I used to mix pyrocat-hd in glycol, but found it to be a waste of time and money as I used up the developer pretty quickly. Glycol is great if you don't develop film so often. Non-glycol pyrocat-hd is good for 4 months in my experience. Wear gloves if you are handling it.

I've used Glycol but I've found Pyrocat HD lasts very well without provided it's made up with relatively fresh Metabisuplite, and stored in a good high density plastic or glass bottles.

Because I've been spending time in two locations I've often left partially full bottles for months at a time and my experience is Pyrocat will last 18 months without Glycol. It detiorates rapidly once the Metabisulpite breaks down.

Ian

bobherbst
9-Nov-2011, 11:05
Ken, one more note to your comment about volume - " if you are exceeding or stretching the capacity of a given volume (too many sheets, insufficient volume), then it will take longer to develop". This is mostly correct and very insightful. But at high dilutions or with weak/old developer, it doesn't matter how long you develop, you will not get sufficient density simply because there is not enough active developer to fully reduce the exposed silver in the negative(s). I ran into this when developing 12x20 negatives in trays. I hit the threshold when I started doing 8 sheets at a time instead of 4-6 in the same volume of developer. None of the negatives received enough development because the increase in number of sheets exhausted the available developer before a full range could be developed. Extending the time resulted in only a slight increase in density, but also had the effect of increasing base fog - so minimal benefit. I keep a table in a notebook which lists minimum amount of stock solution per negative based on the area of the film in square inches, regardless of dilution or volume.


Another question is which version of the developer are you using? If it's formulated in water instead of Glycol - and if it's old - then the strength may be waning. I found it cheapest and easiest to mix myself.

And then there's the issue of volume: if you are exceeding or stretching the capacity of a given volume (too many sheets, insufficient volume) then it will take longer to develop.

Jay DeFehr
9-Nov-2011, 11:37
Very good points, Bob. Capacity is often overlooked, and/or unknown. For 510-Pyro I consider the safe minimum to be 1ml/8x10 sheet, with dilutions up to 1:500 practical, and up to 1:1000 possible. Hypercat II is also 1ml/8x10 sheet, but I wouldn't dilute beyond 1:x:300.

Andrew O'Neill
9-Nov-2011, 15:48
You can buy Pyrocat HD in glycoll or non-glycol at the same price from Photographer's Formulary. You do not have to wast time and money for this.

Thanks, but I prefer to mix up my own. Cheaper. It would cost a fortune to have it shipped up here, anyways.


I've used Glycol but I've found Pyrocat HD lasts very well without provided it's made up with relatively fresh Metabisuplite, and stored in a good high density plastic or glass bottles.

I use those brown heavy accordian type bottles... perhaps they're no good.

bobherbst
10-Nov-2011, 08:55
I should probably also add one more comment for clarity. The minimum amount of developer required per square inch of film will vary with different films and is directly related to the silver content of the emulsion. Some "silver rich" emulsions like the old SuperXX and original Bergger BPF200 will require more developer stock per square inch. Modern TMAX films have less silver, if I remember correctly.

I definitely found this to be true with the old Bergger film. It required higher developer concentration and longer development times compared to HP5 and TMY shot of the same subject at the same time with the same lighting. I learned this when Ilford started making their films available in ULF sizes and I started using HP5. I loaded one side of the film holder with Bergger and one side with HP5 and shot both of the same subject. Up until that point, only Bergger was available in 12x20 at a reasonable price. You had to purchase an entire master roll of Tri-X if you wanted ULF sizes.


Ken, one more note to your comment about volume - " if you are exceeding or stretching the capacity of a given volume (too many sheets, insufficient volume), then it will take longer to develop". This is mostly correct and very insightful. But at high dilutions or with weak/old developer, it doesn't matter how long you develop, you will not get sufficient density simply because there is not enough active developer to fully reduce the exposed silver in the negative(s). I ran into this when developing 12x20 negatives in trays. I hit the threshold when I started doing 8 sheets at a time instead of 4-6 in the same volume of developer. None of the negatives received enough development because the increase in number of sheets exhausted the available developer before a full range could be developed. Extending the time resulted in only a slight increase in density, but also had the effect of increasing base fog - so minimal benefit. I keep a table in a notebook which lists minimum amount of stock solution per negative based on the area of the film in square inches, regardless of dilution or volume.

Ken Lee
10-Nov-2011, 10:10
Modern TMAX films have less silver, if I remember correctly.

Yes. Not only did they improve the grain, they saved money in the process. :)

Jay DeFehr
10-Nov-2011, 12:30
Not only did they improve grain and save money in the process, but they improved sharpness, reciprocity characteristics, exposure latitude, spectral response, processing characteristics; essentially achieving all the design goals for B&W film set during the first 1/2 of the 20th century. Ok, I'm gushing a little, but I really love this stuff!