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James Hughes
5-Nov-2011, 14:45
Hi all, I'm a mathematician taking a photography class at the school I work at. This is my first semester shooting 4x5 and printing in a darkroom. As the semester winds down, the photography professor and I want to explore toning.

Our goal is to show toning to the students in the class. I'm particularly interested in selenium toning, but that's many because I've read Ansel Adams' Camera/Negative/Print series.

I'm wondering what advice folks have to make an effective demonstration of toning. The biggest concern I have is which paper to use. We have three VC papers: Ilford MG IV RC paper in Pearl and Glossy finish and some Ilford FB Warmtone paper with glossy finish.

I've read conflicting reports about toning VC papers. Any positive reports or suggestions about those papers? Also, if you had to show off selenium toning, is there a particular paper you would suggest?

Thanks in advance!

Mark Sampson
5-Nov-2011, 14:56
Ilford's fiber-base Multigrade shows deeper blacks, but almost no color change in KRST @ 1:20 (how I use it). Warmtone FB shows a color change more readily. A good test would be three different dilutions for a variety of toning times. I can't advise about RC papers but they shouldn't be very different than fiber-base.

Szaller
5-Nov-2011, 15:06
I would go for ANY FB paper if I wanted to demonstrate selenium toning. FB papers react much faster to selenium toning and tend to give more "obvious" results than RC papers. FB papers are "easier" to tone. I dont think VC papers would give you any problems...(anyone can correct me on that one if Im wrong). :)

ROL
5-Nov-2011, 15:43
I think an instructive "test" might be something like using examples of different papers, RC and fiber, VC and graded, pulling at three times each:



untoned
toning without without color shift
toning for color shift
toning to completion (unconcerned with color shift – full archival "advantage")


Then perhaps exploring a few specific toning techniques (like split toning, see Tim Rudman's Toning Book) on selected papers.

Vaughn
5-Nov-2011, 15:57
Try sepia toning some images (using different bleaching times, too), wash them, and then selenium tone them.

One nice way is to take an 11x14 or 16x20 print, rip or cut it into 4 pieces, and tone each section differently -- put the print back together to see the differences.

Vaughn

MumbleyJoe
5-Nov-2011, 16:47
I have almost no toning experience, but I did just recently do my first test (and I was giddy over the beautiful results).

I toned 4 4x5 contact prints and left a 5th untoned. I used Kodak Rapid Seleium Toner 1:9 (100ml, diluted to 1L). I toned for 2, 4, 6 and 9 minutes.

2 min showed a nice deepening of the blacks, no visible color shift.
4 min showed deeper blacks, and a faint purplish color shift (I think 3 min would be perfect).
6 min showed more density than I wanted, pulling down midtones too.
9 min showed a very clear color shift and the deepest tones.

I used Ilford MGIV RC (Satin). I've not yet done any FB prints, and just had the RC prints to work with. I prepared the contact prints in advance, so they were dry. I pre-soaked them for a minute or two, then toned, then washed. Being RC prints they were quick to process.

So, for an intro to toning, my personal quick experiment was an eye-opener for me and worked basically exactly as I hoped. I have very little darkroom experience, but wanted a quick taste of what toning would accomplish. I'm no expert now either, but my quick and simple experiment was a good introduction to the possibilities.

Michael Clark
5-Nov-2011, 18:16
Selennium toning is a slow process in the tray and hard to see any density or color change with out an non toned print setting right next to it, even then its hard to judge results tell after the print has dried.Vaughn's and MuumbleyJoe's idea of displaying the end results would be easy for the students to see.
Mike

dasBlute
5-Nov-2011, 18:58
another twist is to selenium tone first, to 'protect' the darks and then sepia tone...

try cutting an image into say, 5 pieces and vary the ratio
selenium -vs- sepia [in secs] something like. For me the
longer the selenium, the more purple, but there is
a crossover where the tones balance quite nicely.

sel : sep [in secs]
----------
015 - 240
030 - 120
060 - 060
120 - 030
240 - 015

James Hughes
5-Nov-2011, 20:49
Thanks all! I appreciate all the suggestions. I'm liking the idea of toning various papers for different times to show the difference in papers and toning times. By the way, my professor ordered Berg selenium toner.

As a further question, If I were to order a graded paper to throw into the mix, does anyone have suggestions for what would make an interesting addition? No one seemed to jump on the coating (glossy/pearl), so at the minute, it sounds like I've got glossy RC and Warmtone FB.

Michael Clark
5-Nov-2011, 21:49
Neutral to cold tone Bromide fiber papers gain the most density with Selenium toner, all though they start to turn a purple color if left in the toner for longer periods of time. I like glossy with most fiber papers, Illford warm tone papers looks good in semi mat with the right subject matter,its all up to your own personal taste.

Don't think there would be much of a difference in toning VC or graded papers.

jeroldharter
5-Nov-2011, 22:44
You should look at the Tim Rudman toning book for the most comprehensive and illustrated information available. It will give you lots of ideas.

I would keep the test simple. Use maybe two fiber based papers, a warm tone (Ilford Warmtone) and a cold tone (Kentmere FinePrintn VC FB). Show one print intoned, one print toned for ~2 min at 1:19 dilution for maximum black and improved local contrast, and one print toned 1:4 for ~5 minutes to show color changed.

You might also try toning a negative to show a contrast boost.

bob carnie
6-Nov-2011, 06:34
add to this

Toning with different strength and times.

start with 1:1 - 1: 3 -1;5 my favorite,- 1:9 -1:20


I think an instructive "test" might be something like using examples of different papers, RC and fiber, VC and graded, pulling at three times each:



untoned
toning without without color shift
toning for color shift
toning to completion (unconcerned with color shift full archival "advantage")


Then perhaps exploring a few specific toning techniques (like split toning, see Tim Rudman's Toning Book) on selected papers.

Andrew O'Neill
6-Nov-2011, 09:21
Papers react differently to selenium toning. Someone on this thread said the Ilford MG's colour doesn't change much. Not true. There is a significant shift to the cool side. Papers' blacks darken somewhat but one thing that you have to be aware of is that all papers lose DMAX. Papers hit maximum black at a certain point in selenium but then gradually lose dmax even below what they were before toning. Find the best dilution/time/temp that works for your chosen paper.

dasBlute
6-Nov-2011, 09:25
add to this

Toning with different strength and times.

start with 1:1 - 1: 3 -1;5 my favorite,- 1:9 -1:20

so Bob, 1:5 is your favorite? why is that? does it work faster than say 1:19 [which I use]
or is it the color/strength of the toning...

always interested in your threads, btw, lots of hard won, practical knowledge, IMO

Andrew O'Neill
6-Nov-2011, 09:34
dasBlute, it depends on the paper but yes, 1:5 will get you there before 1:19... BUT, 1:5 might be more difficult to control. Like I said in my previous post, find the best dilution/time/temp that works for your chosen paper.

bob carnie
6-Nov-2011, 09:42
Yes faster is the key for me. also

I like 1:5 because I can vary the tone dramatically with the two main paper types I am using, warm tone and bromide.
I have found that 40 seconds with Ilford Warmtone gives me the tone I like, not too warm and since I use dektol 1:1.5 as my developer it is pleasing. Direct from toner to wash with no drip time.
For the Gallerie 4 digital paper I can achieve a very cold almost blue black with about 1 1/2 minutes of Selenium only, I have been looking for this cold tone for quite awhile. by crunching the blacks and retaining highlight a very strong bold look can be achieved.

When I am Duo or Tri Toning with either papers I can satisfy my eyes with this dilution of Selenium.
I always use 1:5 Selenium these days and just have figured out different times that work in my Darkroom.

so Bob, 1:5 is your favorite? why is that? does it work faster than say 1:19 [which I use]
or is it the color/strength of the toning...

always interested in your threads, btw, lots of hard won, practical knowledge, IMO

Andrew O'Neill
6-Nov-2011, 09:53
Gallerie 4 digital paper?

bob carnie
6-Nov-2011, 10:19
Yes?

Gallerie 4 digital paper?

Bill Burk
6-Nov-2011, 10:41
Fred Newman posted a two-part series on YouTube that you (as a mathematician) will certainly appreciate:

user viewcamerastore

#37 and #33

Selenium Toning for Maximum Black

Andrew O'Neill
6-Nov-2011, 10:51
Not heard of this paper, that's all.

Bill Burk
6-Nov-2011, 10:59
Yes?

Yes! I'm still getting over my shock.

Harman developed a paper that is suitable for digital imaging. You would have to leave your safelights off.

It just "happens" to be Galerie 4. "Technically" it's not designed for traditional enlarging. I could get past that.

But for now it looks like only available in rolls, I don't think there are sheets.

Jon Shiu
6-Nov-2011, 11:40
If you put an untoned print next to the toned one, one will look greenish, and the other purpleish.

Jon

bob carnie
6-Nov-2011, 13:19
I am please with this paper Galerie G4, took me five years to figure it out, they are about to introduce two more into the mix, I have been begging Mirko at Fotomex to supply me a roll of his paper to no avail for four years now, I know from personal experience that it will work on my lambda, I have yet to figure out his hesitance. A warmtone version would be killer.
I believe Ilford Warmtone has been modified yearly to increase the sensitivity to run in Chromiras and Lambdas, not sure if they have fooled the masses yet but we are close.

Yes! I'm still getting over my shock.

Harman developed a paper that is suitable for digital imaging. You would have to leave your safelights off.

It just "happens" to be Galerie 4. "Technically" it's not designed for traditional enlarging. I could get past that.

But for now it looks like only available in rolls, I don't think there are sheets.

bob carnie
6-Nov-2011, 13:20
Ok so what's your question, or are you still pissed off about the gloves.

Not heard of this paper, that's all.

bob carnie
6-Nov-2011, 13:24
Bill , I have never used it in the enlarger but my 2 cents is that it would work quite well.
but for enlarger work I like using safelights , and quite honestly I do not know why they made it red sensitive and inappropriate for safelight. I used Agfa Classic in the Lambda with safelights before Harmon introduced this paper and still today would prefer the safelight version.
I can get really wicked blacks and I am sure this is what you are interested in.
Controlling the image with PS is really fun.
I doubt it will be offererd in sheets , but you can purchase 20 inch rolls and cut down , just don't use safelights, like printing in colour and it should be ok,, if you really want the answer I will try it under an enlarge, means cutting from the roll and screws up my lamda cut down history.

bob


Yes! I'm still getting over my shock.

Harman developed a paper that is suitable for digital imaging. You would have to leave your safelights off.

It just "happens" to be Galerie 4. "Technically" it's not designed for traditional enlarging. I could get past that.

But for now it looks like only available in rolls, I don't think there are sheets.

Bill Burk
6-Nov-2011, 14:16
...if you really want the answer I will try it under an enlarger, means cutting from the roll and screws up my lamda cut down history.

Don't bother on my behalf. I know it would work. I'm a "one-paper" kind of person, and Galerie is my paper. Just its existence makes me a little happier.

I've got IR goggles (and can work in the dark too). So safelights are not a critical thing for me. Funny, I was loading film this morning and goggles didn't help one iota.

I complained about gloves not too long ago, PE advised rubber gloves.

Andrew O'Neill
6-Nov-2011, 15:25
Bob, I only stated that I had never heard of this paper. And don't worry... I always wear gloves when selenium toning ;) Back to the darkroom!

ic-racer
6-Nov-2011, 15:46
Where are you getting this 'G' designation?
On the Ilford site I found GALERIE DIGITAL SILVER RC 44M and ILFORD GALERIE FB DIGITAL, is that what you are referring to with 'G4' ?

Anyway, has anyone tried it as a substitute for Panalure; ie to projection print color negatives?

Pete Watkins
6-Nov-2011, 16:10
I lost 3 days work in the 80's 'cos I didn't believe that I needed to wear gloves. It's not pleasent.
Pete.

Andrew O'Neill
6-Nov-2011, 17:43
...and I wear a respirator.

bob carnie
7-Nov-2011, 07:14
Yes
This paper is the Ilford Galerie FB which was described to me you the owners of Harmon when they visited my lab as Gallerie Grade 4 with an red sensitive layer. The red sensitive was due to their belief that using RGB lasers would reguire it as well this may be the secret sauce that brought the sensitivity of the paper to work in the Lambda , now Theta, and Light jet units. I started out using Agfa Classic which I could use under safelight.
They are really trying to make it work with LED technology which is Chromira and other exposing devices coming onto the market.. A laser device like Lambda is no longer being considered in the market due to the very expensive costs. I suspect Ilford Warmtone sensitivityis being converted with each emulsion run to work in these devices. The new art paper which is basically the Ilford Warmtone emulsion is slated to work in digital devices.
This is not confirmed and has only been told to me , with various discussions with the tech rep in New York and the extinct tech rep in Toronto, so it could be just an ugly rumour so take it as such.
The Galerie Digital Silver RC was described to me as regular RC with an extended red sensitivity which I have a bunch here that is sitting on a shelf never being used as I basically do not make RC prints, when the product came out I had a machine that could process the rc but do not have that machine anymore.

I believe you could use this paper with colour negatives like panalure.(No safelight) btw I never tried this under an enlarger .

I would sell a roll to anyone sight unseen, and only take the money after it was tested and proved to be ok as it has been sitting on my shelf for years.
30 inch by 100ft.



Where are you getting this 'G' designation?
On the Ilford site I found GALERIE DIGITAL SILVER RC 44M and ILFORD GALERIE FB DIGITAL, is that what you are referring to with 'G4' ?

Anyway, has anyone tried it as a substitute for Panalure; ie to projection print color negatives?

blevblev
12-Nov-2011, 23:31
You can also contact Fred Newman ( viewcamerastore.com ) and get a copy of the DMAX newsletters. The one that you should read is DMAX vol 8-2 - which has an article "Selenium Toning for Maximum BlacK" by Phil Davis (The BTZS guy.) He does the test that Fred goes over in his video for quite a few papers using different dilutions and different times. He graphs all of the results which (as was said before) should make things clear to a math guy. One of the more useful results is determining that there are toning times beyond which there is little increate in density. It allows you to get the max increase in d-value for the minimum time. You can do these tests yourself, and if you don't have access to a reflection densitometer, you can send your tests to Fred and he'll do it for you.