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Ari
1-Nov-2011, 19:14
Not just an album by the Police.
I went out today to do some portraits of the "Occupy Ottawa" happening.
I spent about 90 minutes doing ten portraits.
Came home, processed the film (C-41) and it came out black; all 12 sheets.
I still have another 6 sheets waiting to be developed.

The film was black, but on many of them, you could see a clear edge, the unexposed part covered by the film holder, Grafmatics all.
I've ruled out bellows and the space between camera and film holder.
I've ruled out the lens.
I've ruled out the changing bag.
I've ruled out my wife, baby daughter, brother and dog messing with my stuff.
What remains is film, processing and storage of exposed negs.

Film was the last 18 sheets of a 50-sheet box, loaded today and yesterday; it has always been good film.
I unloaded from holder to empty box, and empty box to processing tank, all in the changing bag. Maybe 15 minutes to do all that.
I processed the film as I always do.
I heated up the colour chems in the microwave.
Temps were kept around 40˚C for pre-soak, developer and blix.
I added 15s to dev. time, 30s to blix time to compensate for the previous usage of the chems.
Washing was done at a gradually decreasing temperature, then stabilizer was added.

Then I looked at the film.

The chems had processed 48 sheets, but the last batch was done two days ago, and was good. The info page for Tetenal says that there will be a gradual decrease in quality, not a sudden decrease.

So, fellow sleuths, have I left anything out?
The film did get exposed, but exposed to a degree where it was black, as if it had lain exposed all day in an open film holder.

I really hate days like this; I feel like I should just take that desk job or go back to school and forget all about this foto bullshit.

Jim Michael
1-Nov-2011, 19:21
Could the shutter have gotten stuck open? Sorry to hear about your troubles, I know that a lot of effort went into that.

Ari
1-Nov-2011, 19:23
Thanks, Jim.
The shutter just got back yesterday from a CLA by my favourite shutter specialist.
I had ruled out the shutter right away.

cdholden
1-Nov-2011, 19:26
I'm far from one to speak on C41, but I do troubleshoot problems for a living.
How big of a deal, logistically or financially, would it be to try again with a batch of fresh chemicals. You don't say how old your developer is, but mention that the last batch was two days ago. Is there a chance it could have went bad in those two days?
Do you have a local lab that could develop a test sheet out of the same batch of film?
If you don't know what the problem is, rule out your possibilities by process of elimination.
Hope it helps.
Chris

Ari
1-Nov-2011, 19:36
Yes, it helps; thanks, Chris.
The chemicals are about 3 weeks old, have gone through 48 sheets, but they're not supposed to drop off suddenly like this.
It could have gone bad in the last 2 days, but it's highly unlikely.
The fact that the film was black tells me the problem wasn't processing, but exposure.

I've already thrown out the chems as a precaution, and will mix new stuff tomorrow.

Meanwhile, I will go and re-shoot everything, if I can, tomorrow.
I'll also shoot a Polaroid before leaving home in the morning.

Leigh
1-Nov-2011, 19:50
I you have clear edges (masked area in the slots) it's not a chemical problem.

Somehow you exposed the film with the darkslide pulled.

Any chance the shutter speed was waaaay too long? Or the aperture was wide open?

- Leigh

WayneStevenson
1-Nov-2011, 20:47
"So, fellow sleuths, have I left anything out?"

Forgot to close your shutter BEFORE pulling the darkslide? Forgot to stop your lens down before exposing?

Your shutter times could be off as well. One would expect a CLA to prevent / fix those issues. But that doesn't guarantee it, and throw human error / overlooking into the mix and a lens could come back to you in worse condition than you sent it in.

gth
1-Nov-2011, 21:06
Ari, I had a sticky shutter on Sunday, worked fine inside but it did not like the cold. IF you're close to your car or warm area so you can develop it, take test polaroid with the shutter cooled down to outside temperature.

Tom J McDonald
2-Nov-2011, 01:44
Did you trust a faulty light meter?

Ari
2-Nov-2011, 06:22
Any chance the shutter speed was waaaay too long? Or the aperture was wide open?


No, speeds sounded good to me, and I checked to make sure before and after shooting.
Thanks, Leigh.


"So, fellow sleuths, have I left anything out?"

Forgot to close your shutter BEFORE pulling the darkslide? Forgot to stop your lens down before exposing?

Your shutter times could be off as well. One would expect a CLA to prevent / fix those issues. But that doesn't guarantee it, and throw human error / overlooking into the mix and a lens could come back to you in worse condition than you sent it in.

I may have had a darkslide malfunction; the Grafmatics can sometimes jam, or you can forget that they're open.
But both of them? Possibly a third as well?
I don't know, I've been using them trouble-free for a few years now.
Thanks

The shutter won't fire if the diaphragm is open, and I am careful about that.
I made that mistake often with 8x10, but only very rarely on 4x5.
The shutter sounded clode enough; I should have slightly over/under-exposed film.
Thanks, Wayne.


Ari, I had a sticky shutter on Sunday, worked fine inside but it did not like the cold. IF you're close to your car or warm area so you can develop it, take test polaroid with the shutter cooled down to outside temperature.

Thanks, Gerth; will try the Polaroid today.


Did you trust a faulty light meter?

My Minolta IVf has been rock solid since day one, and I'd put that near the bottom of my list of things that cold be wrong.
Thanks, Tom.

Steve Goldstein
2-Nov-2011, 06:45
How cold was it when you were shooting? Is it possible the battery in your light meter doesn't like the cold? Alkalines are notably poor below about freezing, lithium good to about -15C.

Ari
2-Nov-2011, 07:14
Steve, I've used the meter in very cold weather, and its accuracy is constant, even if its power fluctuates in the cold.
Yesterday was 12˚C, so I ruled that out.
Thanks

Btw, Polaroid test is good; camera and lens are working as they should.

Brian C. Miller
2-Nov-2011, 07:46
While you were at your local Occupy event, was your film in your personal possession at all times? It was always on your person?

The only thing I can think of is that somebody slid your darkslides open. Since the area outside the frame is clear, and all of the film exhibits the same problem, then the only conclusion is that somebody monkeyed with your holders when your back was turned. Was your stuff "inspected?"

A shutter problem would have caught your attention immediately. Everybody listens to their shutters, and a stuck shutter would not have gone unnoticed for 12 sheets or better. Even a sticking shutter wouldn't have completely screwed up 12 sheets. A pinhole leak still wouldn't have turned your film into a brick wall. Any leak that bad would have shown up much earlier.

Mark Sampson
2-Nov-2011, 07:51
If the film is 'black', it's been light-struck (fogged). Not the camera, bellows, or shutter.
I suspect an issue with Grafmatic handling. By someone if not you. Reload these bad negs into the holder in daylight and practice your procedure with the holders.

Ari
2-Nov-2011, 07:59
While you were at your local Occupy event, was your film in your personal possession at all times? It was always on your person?

The only thing I can think of is that somebody slid your darkslides open. Since the area outside the frame is clear, and all of the film exhibits the same problem, then the only conclusion is that somebody monkeyed with your holders when your back was turned. Was your stuff "inspected?"

A shutter problem would have caught your attention immediately. Everybody listens to their shutters, and a stuck shutter would not have gone unnoticed for 12 sheets or better. Even a sticking shutter wouldn't have completely screwed up 12 sheets. A pinhole leak still wouldn't have turned your film into a brick wall. Any leak that bad would have shown up much earlier.

I think you're on the right track in that the problem lies with the Grafmatics. Somehow, something went wrong. But both of them? It's very unlikely, certainly possible however.
I had them on me all the time, there was no inspection, and people were very friendly and willingly agreed to a photo, and sign a release as well.

I'm using different Grafmatics today, and I will be very careful during exposure.
Thanks, Brian.


If the film is 'black', it's been light-struck (fogged). Not the camera, bellows, or shutter.
I suspect an issue with Grafmatic handling. By someone if not you. Reload these bad negs into the holder in daylight and practice your procedure with the holders.

Mark, I kind of agree with you and Brian.
However, the Grafmatics are designed so that if the film sheet is exposed, the rest are protected by the dark slide just behind the sheet being exposed.
This would have resulted in one bad sheet out of six.

Maybe you're right about the film; perhaps somehow it got exposed when I wasn't around. My brother, who was visiting recently, would be too scared to tell me he casually opened a film box without thinking; and he'd be right to be scared. :)

Noah A
2-Nov-2011, 08:28
Yeah, I can't see how you wouldn't have noticed a meter or shutter problem. It takes a lot for color neg to be totally black with no image. And surely you would have noticed a problem if your meter told you to expose for 10 seconds wide open in daylight:eek: .

Similarly, even if your shutter were slow you'd probably have a usable, though dense, image. I don't know where it would go completely black but I suspect it would take more than ten stops. If you forgot to stop down and shot at, say, f/5.6 instead of f/22, you'd definitely still get an image.

I suppose if you forgot to close the shutter before you pulled the darkslide then the exposure might have been long enough to totally expose the film, but then you surely would have noticed when you went to trip the shutter and nothing happened. It's a mistake I'm sure we all have made but not for a whole day of consecutive shots.

I've never used a grafmatic but I suspect the film was exposed in the holder. If you have clear edges the film wasn't exposed outside of the holder. I have no idea if it's possible to unknowingly expose film in a grafmatic.

jb7
2-Nov-2011, 08:46
Did you pack your bags yourself?
Did you leave your bags unattended at any time?

There comes a time when you might have to suspect sabotage...

Bill Burk
2-Nov-2011, 09:31
Ari,

Develop some unexposed shots, or some expendible shots you take in your backyard before you throw today's event shoot in the soup.

Ari
2-Nov-2011, 11:39
Yeah, I can't see how you wouldn't have noticed a meter or shutter problem. It takes a lot for color neg to be totally black with no image. And surely you would have noticed a problem if your meter told you to expose for 10 seconds wide open in daylight:eek: .

Similarly, even if your shutter were slow you'd probably have a usable, though dense, image. I don't know where it would go completely black but I suspect it would take more than ten stops. If you forgot to stop down and shot at, say, f/5.6 instead of f/22, you'd definitely still get an image.

I suppose if you forgot to close the shutter before you pulled the darkslide then the exposure might have been long enough to totally expose the film, but then you surely would have noticed when you went to trip the shutter and nothing happened. It's a mistake I'm sure we all have made but not for a whole day of consecutive shots.

I've never used a grafmatic but I suspect the film was exposed in the holder. If you have clear edges the film wasn't exposed outside of the holder. I have no idea if it's possible to unknowingly expose film in a grafmatic.

I suppose it's possible to expose all 6 sheets in a Grafmatic, and also possible to do it twice in one day. I just don't know how I did it.
Thanks, Noah.


Did you pack your bags yourself?
Did you leave your bags unattended at any time?

There comes a time when you might have to suspect sabotage...

Joseph, did you ever work security for El-Al? :)
Possible, yes, but in a park full of hippies and other anti-establishment types, I keep a close eye on my gear; it was always with me.
Thanks


Ari,

Develop some unexposed shots, or some expendible shots you take in your backyard before you throw today's event shoot in the soup.

Bill,
I will mix new chems today; I already shot twelve more sheets in different backs, so that should be ok.
The problem lies in my Grafmatic technique, which has never been a problem, or sabotage, or bad film from the box.
Thanks

Noah A
2-Nov-2011, 13:28
It may not have been intentional sabotage. (I've been working on my own project with the occupy protests and have experienced nothing but kindness and enthusiasm from the participants, so I doubt it was a conspiracy.)

It may have been more like...oooh what is this thing and what happens when I pull this doohickey. Oooh, cool, let's do it again...

If it were exposed in the box you'd have black borders, so it must have been exposed in the holder. Did your brother have access to the loaded holders:confused: ?

Ari
2-Nov-2011, 15:10
It may not have been intentional sabotage. (I've been working on my own project with the occupy protests and have experienced nothing but kindness and enthusiasm from the participants, so I doubt it was a conspiracy.)

It may have been more like...oooh what is this thing and what happens when I pull this doohickey. Oooh, cool, let's do it again...

If it were exposed in the box you'd have black borders, so it must have been exposed in the holder. Did your brother have access to the loaded holders:confused: ?

When I said sabotage, I meant at home! :p
My brother may have accidentally opened the holders.

Btw, I just processed today's film, and it's perfect.
My house is known to be haunted, so I'm sticking with that explanation for now.

The bad thing is I'll probably never know what happened.
The good thing is I didn't get a desk job...yet. :)

Thanks to all.

Frank Petronio
2-Nov-2011, 21:23
You still have to test those holders again with film. Or sell them here, lol.

Richard K.
3-Nov-2011, 06:52
|||||||||||\My brother, who was visiting recently, would be too scared to tell me he casually opened a film box without thinking; and he'd be right to be scared. :)|||||

This is now my working theory. Maybe not your brother, but a person. Not your dog; he wouldn't have put it back together again. But....wait...if I accidently opened a 3 layer box, unless I looked at each sheet individually, I would expect a gradient of exposure damage, not a uniform burn of all negatives. Hmmm. Once you rule out the Grafmatics, start gentle (as in not "you ruined my life's work!!! This is irrecoverable!") with your family members, maybe the dog...Sorry, this is not funny; I can imagine how you feel! I really empathize your loss! Please let us know what you finally conclude. Wait! There was a clear border? Then the same speculation but with regard to the holders...

Ari
3-Nov-2011, 17:24
You still have to test those holders again with film. Or sell them here, lol.

Film holders loaded with one sheet each. We'll see...


This is now my working theory. Maybe not your brother, but a person. Not your dog; he wouldn't have put it back together again. But....wait...if I accidently opened a 3 layer box, unless I looked at each sheet individually, I would expect a gradient of exposure damage, not a uniform burn of all negatives. Hmmm. Once you rule out the Grafmatics, start gentle (as in not "you ruined my life's work!!! This is irrecoverable!") with your family members, maybe the dog...Sorry, this is not funny; I can imagine how you feel! I really empathize your loss! Please let us know what you finally conclude. Wait! There was a clear border? Then the same speculation but with regard to the holders...

Yes, there was a clear border, and it was probably the holders; I just don't know how or why.
I'm sticking with the ghosts in the house theory, because at least that theory holds water! We really do have ghosts.
Thanks

Ari
9-Nov-2011, 16:39
Hey,
One last update.
I tested the holders that held the bad film...good.
I tested the same batch of film...good.
I tested the processing...good
I even have six unprocessed sheets from the same shoot, same film, same day.
I processed one sheet from that batch...good.

I'm lost for an explanation; I want to know what happened so it doesn't happen again, obviously, but I'm happy that everything seems to be working again.