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jennirose
21-Oct-2011, 14:42
I am fairly new to large format in terms of actual practical use, so please don't laugh at my newbie questions! I finally had time to push through the troubleshooting phase (fixing camera light leaks, discovering BTZS tubes and developing a successful batch of film), so I'm ready to get out and start making pictures. I desperately need some lens advice, though. So far I have been using a 14" Kodak Commercial Ektar in an Ilex 5 shutter that I got from a member on this forum back when I first acquired my camera, which is a beautiful foundation lens for full coverage. I would like to have something on hand for some less conventional shots, with slight vignetting and possibly some interesting bokeh.

I've been reading up on Petzval and other antique lenses, but in my ignorance I am completely at a loss of whether or not they can be mounted in a shutter, how to tell which shutter I could mount one in, how difficult it would be, and what would be needed for such a process. I'm assuming if I can mount one in a shutter finding the correct lens board would be the easy part, as I just need to match it to the shutter size?

I've attached some shots (Sally Mann, I know, of course) of what look I'm going for. Neither strikes me as a Petzval though from what I've read/seen. I know that she's used a lot of old and damaged lenses for her more recent work, but I'm more interested in her older work with Immediate Family, when she was working with film. From what I saw in the Blood Ties documentary, most (if not all) of the Immediate Family shots were shot with the aid of a shutter (and possibly even a more modern lens that simply did not cover 8x10?) I'm shooting 8x10 as well, so I'm assuming that if I want to achieve any vignetting I'd need to look for something under 250mm?

Apologies for being so long-winded, and thank you for any advice you can give!

John Kasaian
21-Oct-2011, 23:21
The 14" Commercial Ektar is a fine 8x10 lens. If you want to diffuse it, rubberband a piece of nylon panty hose over the lens or put good smear of K-Y or Vasiline (K-Y is water soluable) on a filter. You can even try some mechanical vignetting by shooting through a pasteboard tube (make your own or use a section from a mailing tube for blue prints) Experiment with it. Enjoy it. Have fun!

goamules
22-Oct-2011, 06:10
Petzvals will give a sharp center, with the edges going out of focus more quickly than a more modern lens. You can mount one in a shutter with work, planning, and luck. Every lens from the 1800s was different, and the threads and sizes weren't very standardized, at least for 20th century shutters that were yet to be invented. Here (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=82046&highlight=petzval+shutter)is an example a member is selling on the board.

Many get around this by using a Packard shutter, which can give about a 1/10 exposure. Also, some Wollensak Vitex lenses are in studio shutters that can do about the same time. Or you can use slow film and hold a black cardboard to the front of the lens and quickly move it.


Both those shots show the weirdness Sally is known for, in subject matter, composition, toning, processing. I suppose in lenses too, these might have been shot with Petzvals. These shots look wide angle, or very short lenses for the film size. You can get these looks with many lenses though. Check the Flicker Petzval Photographs group (http://www.flickr.com/groups/868027@N25/)to see what people are doing with Petzvals.

Jim Noel
22-Oct-2011, 08:11
I believe these were made during Mann's pinhole days. Almost certainly the first one is a pinhole image. A pinhole can be made for use on any LF, and many other cameras.

leighmarrin
22-Oct-2011, 19:42
Jenni, LFF member "JSS"/Jason Schlachet has done some interesting things on 8x10 with what I think is an old rapid-rectilinear convertible lens intended for 5x7. Check out this link--the first example is really good, IMO.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/schlachet/sets/72157624115254658/

Richard Rankin
22-Oct-2011, 19:51
If you decide you want to try a petzval, I can probably loan you one to try out. You'd normally want a packard shutter set-up though if you need a shutter for a petzval large enough to cover 8x10 at infinity. If you didn't mind vignetting on 8x10, I could loan you an 8" petzval with a front-mount shutter and flange, so all you need then is a board with the proper hole in it.

Cheers,
Richard

jennirose
24-Oct-2011, 10:06
Thanks everyone for your help! I have to say I'm a little nervous about lenses with no shutters, just because I barely have the basics of LF down and I'm afraid to add another factor. Although now that my camera's functioning properly it might not be a bad idea. I'm just still terrible at guessing shutter speed/f-stop combinations, but I guess I won't get better until I practice.

And Richard--I don't know if I feel comfortable enough in the format to borrow a lens quite yet (afraid I'd hurt it!), plus I only have the one lens board at the moment, but I'll keep your offer in mind for the future.

Fotoguy20d
24-Oct-2011, 10:17
What camera do you use? I might have an extra board.

Dan

jennirose
24-Oct-2011, 10:23
What camera do you use? I might have an extra board.

Dan

Hah Dan, that's a good question. It's got an Orbit logo on the end of the monorail, but I've honestly never seen another camera like it (at least not for sale). It looks like the second to last image on this page (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/calumet/calumetc8x10.html).

E. von Hoegh
24-Oct-2011, 11:22
Thanks everyone for your help! I have to say I'm a little nervous about lenses with no shutters, just because I barely have the basics of LF down and I'm afraid to add another factor. Although now that my camera's functioning properly it might not be a bad idea. I'm just still terrible at guessing shutter speed/f-stop combinations, but I guess I won't get better until I practice.

And Richard--I don't know if I feel comfortable enough in the format to borrow a lens quite yet (afraid I'd hurt it!), plus I only have the one lens board at the moment, but I'll keep your offer in mind for the future.

Do you have a lightmeter?

jennirose
24-Oct-2011, 11:26
Do you have a lightmeter?

Well I've been using my DSLR as a light meter. There's a light meter app for the iPhone that's given me good readings too. I'm just not sure what to do when you don't have a shutter, and get a reading of say 1/50. Hope your hand's fast enough with a piece of cardboard?

E. von Hoegh
24-Oct-2011, 11:37
If you think you'll be using a lot of barrel lenses, a Packard shutter could be a wise investment, as would be a handheld exposure meter.

Otherwise, you can stop down so the shutter speed is one or more seconds, easily doable with lenscap or cardboard.

Fotoguy20d
24-Oct-2011, 17:56
I usually use lenses without shutters on my 8x10. I set up a shutter speed of 1 second and use a hat/lenscap/black t-shirt balled up as a lenscap. But, I've tired of it. I just bought a large universal iris on ebay and a 5 1/2" square packard here to build up a universal board I can use with all my brass lenses.

What size is your lensboard? Is it 6"x6"? I need to cut a couple of boards for my 2-D anyway so its easy to cut an extra one once the tools are set up.

I use my DSLR as a lightmeter - I usually shoot paper negatives so I need to adjust 5 stops from ASA 100 but its easy enough to do on the fly.

Dan

jennirose
24-Oct-2011, 18:59
Dan, my lensboard is just a hair under 6x6 (it's got rounded corners).

Sounds like a great setup you're planning :)

E. von Hoegh
25-Oct-2011, 07:13
There's a Luna-Pro in the FS section, for$ 60 including the adapter for silver oxide cells. If I didn't already have three, I'd jump on it. A proper meter is lightyears better than using a cellphone app or a DSLR. Not least because you can make incident readings at night in a coal mine with it.

aduncanson
25-Oct-2011, 08:07
Hah Dan, that's a good question. It's got an Orbit logo on the end of the monorail, but I've honestly never seen another camera like it (at least not for sale). It looks like the second to last image on this page (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/calumet/calumetc8x10.html).

That looks like the B&J monorail variation on the Calumet C1 8x10 camera. The lens board you describe sounds like the C1 board, which was recently available from Calumet, but fortunately is also compatible with 6 inch square 8x10 Deardorff boards. Plywood facsimiles are easy to make and have been sold on ebay with some regularity. The plywood boards are far easier to drill than the aluminum Calumet originals, but some folks here warn that the plywood can swell in high humidity and damage your shutter or lens.

Measure the maximum extension that your camera allows. That may limit your lens choices. Unless your lens is a telephoto design (rare for 8x10) you cannot focus a focal length longer than the maximum extension of the camera. And for close up studio use, you can easily require camera extension 50% greater than the focal length.

jennirose
25-Oct-2011, 12:04
Thanks all for your help. I actually just purchases the 210mm Schneider from bobjames in the for sale section. Not really what I was talking about in my initial post, but I figure there's no better way to get a feel for different focal lengths than to acquire some different lenses and try them out.

E. von Hoegh
25-Oct-2011, 12:07
You do know that is not an 8x10 lens? edit- Nevermind, I just remembered you want vignetting.

jennirose
25-Oct-2011, 12:18
You do know that is not an 8x10 lens? edit- Nevermind, I just remembered you want vignetting.

Hah yes, but thanks for looking out for me. He did say it covered 8x10 fine, but I'll see if I can get some vingetting out of it in any case. If not I suppose I could always just burn in my corners.

E. von Hoegh
25-Oct-2011, 12:22
Get a cheap plastic lenscap, or even some cardboard, and cut a hole in it. Or make some masks that go in front of the lens.

That's a pretty nice lens for 4x5, too. I use the 150 version on an old Linhof, a very nice lens. Underregarded.

Fotoguy20d
25-Oct-2011, 15:32
Will the OP's camera accept the board from an Eastman 2-D (ie just under 6" square with an 1/8" thick lip 3/8" wide)? Are the rounded corners necessary?

jennirose - if the answer to the above is yes, I have a lensboard I can send you. I even have one with rounded corners - that one is already drilled. If you want one, what size hole do you need in it? Do you want a copal 1 to fit that 210 lens (I have the same lens - won't cover 8x10, but a nice lens for 4x5)

Dan

leighmarrin
26-Oct-2011, 01:28
Here's another lens that might be interesting, Jenni. Emmet Gowin used an inexpensive wide-angle lens intended for 4x5 on his 8x10 view camera, and got some interesting results of his family in W. Virginia. I read somewhere that he used a 90mm F6.8 Angulon lens, which typically is found in a modern Compur shutter. (Not to be confused with the 90mm SUPER Angulon, which has more coverage.)

The 90mm f6.8 Angulon is often found for around $100 to $150. It would require a recessed lensboard, which might be another $50 or so on eBay.

Here's several examples of Gowin's work from around 1970.


http://www.masters-of-photography.com/G/gowin/gowin_curtains_full.html

http://www.masters-of-photography.com/G/gowin/gowin_elijah_full.html

http://www.masters-of-photography.com/G/gowin/gowin_spring_snow_full.html

http://www.masters-of-photography.com/G/gowin/gowin_door_full.html

jennirose
26-Oct-2011, 12:37
Dan- Not sure on the board. I just don't know the lip/width measurements off the top of my head but I can check when home tonight. I hope it's the same, though, as I am in the market for another lensboard now. (To fit the 210mm like you said. Copal #1/Compur #1 hole.) Meant to call Calumet last night and check on the availability of their C1 boards, but hey, if you've got one that fits I'm not particular.

leighmarrin- Love those Gowin pictures, I'd never seen them! The vingetting on the first one is particularly effective with the light from those windows. I'll definitely be keeping my eye out for something in the 90mm area in the future.

E. von Hoegh
26-Oct-2011, 13:00
Tessar types have smallish image circles, and there are lots of them out there. You would get vignetting, but still have a longer focal length. You new 210 might illuminate 8x10, but won't cover sharply anywhere near infinity. A 180 Tessar would probably give some vignetting / dark corners.

A way to check for vignetting is to peer through the cut corners of your GG, if you cannot see the entire aperture when the lens is stopped down to say f22, you're getting at least some cutoff.

Paul Fitzgerald
31-Oct-2011, 14:03
Hi there,

ebay# 200667450739 (ends 11/1/11, not involved) is a 150mm Goerz Dogmar in shutter.

If you remove the rear cell, it will give a pronounced barrel distortion like your first photo. (285mm)

If you remove the front cell it will give you a very nice wide soft-focus like your second photo. (225mm)

Soft focus is adjustable by aperture setting.

Very likely just what you are looking for.

Good luck with it.