Alternatives to mineral oil for drum scanning

[NicolasArg]

Hello board,
I'll be receiving (hopefully) a Howtek 4500 drumscanner soon and can't purchase any commercial mounting fluid (as far as I know they don't ship it overseas). I read here on LFinfo that mineral oil can be used BUT all my slides are Kodak E100, G and VS, and from what I read here, mineral oil can destroy these emulsions.
Is there a substitute for MO for drum scanning that can be purchased in a drug store or prepared from raw chemicals? I think I have the mylar issue covered.
Thanks in advance,
Nikolay.

[Brent Long]

You could give baby oil a whirl (bad pun fully intended ;) ). I think that'd be alright, and shouldn't be hard on your film, but wait for others to chime in before doing that. I've only ever done it on a cheap flatbed.

[Daniel Stone]

I'd imagine theres at least (1) graphic arts supplier in South America, try finding out if they can order the Kami fluid for your needs. It needs almost NO cleanup, where as mineral oil, or other "oils" can leave serious residue w/o extra cleaning steps, all which increase the chance of scratching or damaging the emulsion. I have no experience w/ baby oil or mineral oil, but after a friend let me give mounting a try with my own chromes on his drum scanner, I now have lots of respect for people that do it a lot :). My friend has a 4500 as well, and he uses Kami, but we're here in the USA, and can drive to p/u the chems directly from Aztek anyhow.

But I'd definitely google up any graphic arts/separation houses that do pre-press work. They should be able to help point you in the right direction. I find it really hard to believe that shipping Kami products overseas isn't allowed. Putting it in a shipping container and on a boat isn't like flying it...

-Dan

[E. von Hoegh]

Kami scanner fluid datasheet. You can make your own.

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/pdf/msds/kami_scanner_fluids/Kami%20Scanner%20Mounting%20Fluid.pdf

[NicolasArg]

You could give baby oil a whirl (bad pun fully intended ;) ). I think that'd be alright, and shouldn't be hard on your film, but wait for others to chime in before doing that. I've only ever done it on a cheap flatbed.

Thanks, do you use Baby oil on an epson scanner? I scan with one too and would like to try wet mounting, wonder if baby oil is safe to use on slides and negs and is it easy to clean after the use.


I'd imagine theres at least (1) graphic arts supplier in South America, try finding out if they can order the Kami fluid for your needs. It needs almost NO cleanup, where as mineral oil, or other "oils" can leave serious residue w/o extra cleaning steps, all which increase the chance of scratching or damaging the emulsion. I have no experience w/ baby oil or mineral oil, but after a friend let me give mounting a try with my own chromes on his drum scanner, I now have lots of respect for people that do it a lot :). My friend has a 4500 as well, and he uses Kami, but we're here in the USA, and can drive to p/u the chems directly from Aztek anyhow.

But I'd definitely google up any graphic arts/separation houses that do pre-press work. They should be able to help point you in the right direction. I find it really hard to believe that shipping Kami products overseas isn't allowed. Putting it in a shipping container and on a boat isn't like flying it...

-Dan

Thanks Dan, actually I already sent several mails to Buenos Aires, the anxiety is killing me however, it could take months!
When you say no clean up, you mean the actual scanner or the film?


Kami scanner fluid datasheet. You can make your own.

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/pdf/msds/kami_scanner_fluids/Kami%20Scanner%20Mounting%20Fluid.pdf

Wow, thanks! I've checked the list and naphta is basically lighters fluid, mineral spirits is sold here as aguarras. N-hexane is the difficult one I think.

[E. von Hoegh]

I'm willing to bet you can substitute naphtha for the hexane. Another name for commercial hexane is petroleum naphtha, so it might be the same stuff you're buying as naphtha. There's often a difference between trade names and chemical designations.

[NicolasArg]

I'm willing to bet you can substitute naphtha for the hexane. Another name for commercial hexane is petroleum naphtha, so it might be the same stuff you're buying as naphtha. There's often a difference between trade names and chemical designations.

I'll test it with my Epson today, I think Naphta+mineral spirits in the proportion stated, could do the trick.

I wonder why industrial alcohol can't be used, as far as I know, it's water free...

[sanking]

Thanks, do you use Baby oil on an epson scanner? I scan with one too and would like to try wet mounting, wonder if baby oil is safe to use on slides and negs and is it easy to clean after the use.



I have used baby oil for fluid mounting and it worked fine. However, cleaning up the negative after the scan was definitely not easy.

You could also use glycerine, but I think clean up would not be easy with it either. If you can not purchase Kami the best substitute IMO would be a mix of naptha and mineral oil.

Sandy King

[Noah A]

Kami is so good I'd hate to use anything else. I'd really pursue Dan's advice and try to find a source. You might want to check in at the Scan Hi-End group at Yahoo. I'm sure not everyone there is from the US and lots of people use Kami. The film often doesn't even need to be cleaned after scanning since the Kami evaporates and doesn't leave a residue.

The drum should be cleaned with drum cleaner after you scan, but mostly to remove the residue from the tape (which is also minimal if you use Kami tape, but drums are expensive so clean them and treat them right).

Obviously if you they won't ship to you it's not an option, but Aztek is a great resource and I prefer to spend my money there on consumables and here's why:

My Howtek 8000 died a while back. I had a feeling it was the power supply but I wasn't sure. Shipping it from the Eastern US to Aztek would have been expensive and I couldn't really afford it at the time. So the folks at Aztek helped me quite a bit with advice and suggestions. They even tracked down the wiring diagram and pinout diagram of the power supply so I could diagnose the problem myself at home. And then they sold me the part I needed to sucessfully fix the scanner. Evan took a lot of time even though he knew I wasn't going to go for the more expensive route of having them fix the unit or having them do a preventive maintenance, which I should do but simply can't at the moment.

Aztek is a valuable resource when it comes to supporting and repairing Howtek scanners. (And of course they still make the Premier, which is a great scanner.) So even if I could get my supplies cheaper somewhere else, I'll gladly support an outfit that continues to cater to a niche market.

[Sevo]

I wonder why industrial alcohol can't be used, as far as I know, it's water free...

...as long as stored in sealed containers. Alcohol is not even a good film cleaner, being considerably hydrophilic - that is, it will absorb water from the gelatin (where it is present proportional to the absolute humidity of the air). This may (temporarily) cloud the gelatin, a no do for a scan fluid. Besides, industrial alcohol (any from methanol to the propanoles) is too volatile and flammable to be practically useful and safe as a scan fluid.

Glycerine, a higher order alcohol, is better suited and once was used in many commercial scan fluids, but it may lastingly soften the gelatin in high humidity conditions, and is not marketed any more as a scan fluid today. You can get away with it in dry conditions, but it would be quite a risky choice for the original poster, who seems to live in the tropics - at least unless he is of the scan-and-dump school of film users like many a newspaper lab in the eighties/nineties.

[Brent Long]

Thanks, do you use Baby oil on an epson scanner? I scan with one too and would like to try wet mounting, wonder if baby oil is safe to use on slides and negs and is it easy to clean after the use.

Sorry, I only remember doing it once, and that on an old Canoscan 8000F directly on the glass, though I think I put down a piece of saran-wrap between the bed and film, thereby making cleaning the bed unnecessary. The film wasn't difficult to clean, but I used either dish detergent or some film wash, I don't remember which. In weak dilution I really don't think dish detergent is going to harm your film, but maybe I'm wrong on that.

[NicolasArg]

Well, thank you gentlemen for all the input,
I bought some lighter fluid and mineral spirits, mixed them in a 9 to 1 proportion and wet mounted a neg directly to the glass bed of my V700- it really works! Absolutely no NR and I did notice enhanced sharpness. The mix just evaporated from the glass after the use leaving almost no residual marks.
I'll definitely try to buy some Kami in Aztek and clear mylar for mounting but untill I have these items here, homemade "kami" should do the trick I think.
Thanks again!

[NicolasArg]

Just a couple of crops- on standard holder and mounted on the glass bed. No PS sharpening applied.

http://db.tt/oQ0vCfFl

http://db.tt/lZM96fU8

[Nathan Potter]

The naptha and mineral spirits can be obtained in a can in the US at hardware stores.
But that is commercial grade and not very high purity. It will leave a hefty residue on evaporation depending on how the evaporation takes place. Analytical grade solvent will evaporate with almost no residue but may be hard for individuals to order. Some Pharmacists will oblige with a signature.

If you opt for the commercial grade mix use an air or nitrogen blow off for removing the fluid from the surface of the emulsion. That will avoid evaporation to completion. It won't leave an atomically clean surface but so little residue remains as to be invisible in future scans.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[Daniel Stone]

what scanner are you using btw, was the film wet-mounted in the 2nd crop shot?

I've got an Epson 1680 staring me in the face right now, and if I could just caulk up the seams around where the glass meets the plastic paneling, it might work nicely for wet-mounting :). Especially since this scanner is rated for 16-bit too!

just wondering

-Dan

[NicolasArg]

The naptha and mineral spirits can be obtained in a can in the US at hardware stores.
But that is commercial grade and not very high purity. It will leave a hefty residue on evaporation depending on how the evaporation takes place. Analytical grade solvent will evaporate with almost no residue but may be hard for individuals to order. Some Pharmacists will oblige with a signature.

If you opt for the commercial grade mix use an air or nitrogen blow off for removing the fluid from the surface of the emulsion. That will avoid evaporation to completion. It won't leave an atomically clean surface but so little residue remains as to be invisible in future scans.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

I think I can get it in analytical grade, but I still hope to buy Kami. Thanks for the nitrogen tip Nate, very usefull!


what scanner are you using btw, was the film wet-mounted in the 2nd crop shot?

I've got an Epson 1680 staring me in the face right now, and if I could just caulk up the seams around where the glass meets the plastic paneling, it might work nicely for wet-mounting :). Especially since this scanner is rated for 16-bit too!

just wondering

-Dan

Daniel, both scans were done on my Epson V700 (at 2400 dpi using the Epson scan soft), the top one using the holder set at 3.5mm and the second one wet mounted on the bed of the scanner.
The shot is this, the crop is from the center of the 5th tree from the left (counting the cropped one):
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28683427/Arrayan-SIL900WEB.jpg

[Doug Fisher]

NicolasArg - I am not trying to flame you, but are you sure you had the appropriate settings in the software for "film with film holder" and "film with film area guide" in the software and/or sharpening turned on in the second but not the first? That amount of difference between those two scans on a properly set up scanner just isn't normal in my experience. Additionally, the lower picture looks like it has had sharpening applied.

Fluid mounting can provide some improvement but I am just not sure we are seeing an apples to apples comparison with your two images.

Doug
---
www.BetterScanning.com

[NicolasArg]

NicolasArg - I am not trying to flame you, but are you sure you had the appropriate settings in the software for "film with film holder" and "film with film area guide" in the software and/or sharpening turned on in the second but not the first? That amount of difference between those two scans on a properly set up scanner just isn't normal in my experience. Additionally, the lower picture looks like it has had sharpening applied.

Fluid mounting can provide some improvement but I am just not sure we are seeing an apples to apples comparison with your two images.

Doug
---
www.BetterScanning.com

Hello Doug, both images were scanned with the autosharpening feature of the Epson soft activated, but were not sharpened in PS, I'm 110% sure about it. So the sharpening settings are EXACTLY the same
Before trying the glass bed mounting I tried all the 3 positions on my holder -0+ and had the best results with the + height. I always scanned with the "film with holder option activated" until tried the glass mounting.
What could happen and I will check it is that while doing the fluid mounting tests, I somehow forgot to switch the scanner from film with guide to film with support. There is a slight chance of that. So, I guess I'll run the "film with holder" scan once again tonight and post the results.
But, please notice that this was not intended as some sort of test, I just need a mounting fluid for a drum scanner I purchased and decided to test the fluid on my V700. Once I have the drum unit running (hopefully), I plan to use the epson for previews and will continue using the factory holders, it's really faster.
P.S. Like I said above, this is not a test, but given the possible mistake with the scanner settings, if someone wish to take it as a test, let's just name it "well mounted slide vs possibly wrong configured holder" test :). At least for now

[Nathan Potter]

I agree with Doug. That difference between the two details above is too great for wet vs dry mount to be wholly believable unless the sharpening during the scan did something unusual between the first and second scan.

BTW, what is the size of the original, 4X5, 5X7, 8X10?

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[NicolasArg]

I agree with Doug. That difference between the two details above is too great for wet vs dry mount to be wholly believable unless the sharpening during the scan did something unusual between the first and second scan.

BTW, what is the size of the original, 4X5, 5X7, 8X10?

Nate Potter, Austin TX.


Nate,
I insist, If there is any flaw, I think it's a matter of "film with holder" setting not being activated. I'd dismiss the Epson software sharpening. I'm totally sure it was used in both scans with the same setting and besides, you can try and sharp the first sample in PS to make it look like the second one and it's just not possible.
Now that it was mentioned I'm interested too, I'll run the scan again in a few hours and post the crops here.
The original is 4x5, Kodak E100VS

[Brent Long]

Very interested in this as well. I too thought there must be a problem, most likely with the film holder vs guide settings.

But, yeah, this is really a thread about wet mount fluid. I await your rescan nonetheless.

[NicolasArg]

Well, mystery solved. I rescanned the slide as promised, using the factory holders at 3.5mm over the glass using the same high sharpening option from the scanning software as I used for the wet method. The results are very similar, the wet one is a bit sharper IMO. When I tested the homemade Kami, I forgot to switch the film with guide to film with holder option :) My mistake.
http://db.tt/OPPcpc5e

[KenM]

What did you end up using for the naptha and mineral spirits? I'm curious where you got your materials from.

I've hunted around here a bit, and the only naphtha I've found is camping fuel, and I'm really unsure of the actual contents as it only says 'contains naphtha'.

[ryan_lydon]

Naphtha is just lighter fluid. Zippo lighter fluid, not butane. They also sell it at hardware stores as a solvent for paint, but I think it might be a bit less quality than the stuff they are selling for smokers. I have used just straight Zippo fluid with a sheet of mylar that I got from the art supply store on an Epson 750 and found the results to be fantastic. The added benefit of just using Zippo fluid is the container it comes in is very handy to dispense it in. If you are super concerned about contaminants you could get reagent grade naptha from a chemical supply house. Me, I am not that concerned.