Newbie looking for new toy

[phonoline]

...well, "new toy" – that doesn't really explain it. Hello all, I am Alex, a designer & photographer from Hamburg, Germany, and I am looking to advance my skills in large format photography. But this area is totally new to me.
I currently use a Pentax 67II and I love it. I also have the new Pentax 645D which is my workhorse for people photography, but for landscape and travel – you know, it is just not like my 67II which needs more time and care.
I'd like to take it a step further, though, for my next trip to Venice. I'd like to shoot in a format that is higher than 6x7 (strictly black & white, btw) but with a camera I am still able to carry around for a couple of hours. I would also like to add shift and tilt capabilities and - if possible - revolving film backs. And all that, of course, for little money. :) (up to 1500/2000 Euros for body and maybe one lens). I have looked at reviews of cameras all over the internet but I am having a hard time to narrow it down to just two or three cameras. I looked at Fuji GX 680, Fuji 617, various Linhof cameras (617, Technika etc.), Horseman, Da Yi 617, Plaubel and a lot more. And all have their advantages and disadvantages.

What would you recommend? What is your favourite? Which system has the best and sharpest lenses?

Maybe you can enlighten me a bit. I'd be very grateful.
Looking forward to your thoughts!

Best
Alex

[vinny]

this question comes up twice a week here.
try using the search function first.

[Oren Grad]

It's not usually a good idea to take up large format photography "for my next trip" - unless that trip is a long way off. LF poses some challenges that are different from those involved in moving from smaller to larger roll film formats. It can take some time to understand the equipment and materials well enough so that they don't get in the way, especially under the pressures of travel.

For finding the best path forward, it would help if you could articulate specifically what you'd like to accomplish that you can't currently achieve with your P67II system.

[jp]

That's a ample budget for some quality gently used 4x5 gear. I too would suggest you have the equipment and use it for a few simple outings before taking it on an important adventure.

[Gem Singer]

Welcome to the LF forum Alex,

Since you state a preference for Japanese cameras and lenses, I suggest that you move up to 4x5 and build an outfit around the Toyo AII metal folding flatbed camera. It has a revolving back and the tilts and shift you want.

The AII fits your description of the type of camera you need. Match it up with Fujinon or Nikon/Nikkor lenses and a light weight tripod, and you'll have an outfit that will meet all of your expectations.

[cyrus]

Get a Super Speed Graphic and a couple of Grafmatics

[Jeff Keller]

Tilt and shift aren't very medium format friendly, although there are some cameras that can do it fairly well. Go up to 4x5 or larger and the world opens up tremendously.

If you like wide angle views and want to stick to roll film, look at the Ebony SW23 or 617 to get an idea of what range of lenses can be used.

If you go up to 4x5 or larger you'll lose the long focal lengths of an SLR but the tradeoffs are related to weight, flexibility, cost, and personal preferences. Lenses aren't tied to any particular camera maker.

Jeff Keller

[phonoline]

Thanks for taking the time responding. The Ebony cams look interesting but are way out of my current budget, Jeff. The Super Speed Graphic, Cyrus, look all very old but lets see how much they cost. And the Toyo Field 45AII, Gem - I did not know anything about it. Great! This could become a potential candidate.

My trip to Venice is in February so lots of time to try out LF until then. I will bring both, my MF and (hopefully then) LF gear.

The main reason for wanting to work with LF is the larger format and tilt/shift. I found the latter is a huge problem for my 67 system and for MF in general. I also find it very comfortable to use revolving and different format backs.

[cyrus]

Super Speed Grafics Look very old? -Well I'm using a camera from 1890. So no, not at all very old! :) Lots of LF photograhers use very old cameras precisely because they're so good.

And if you don't want to use 4x5 film you can use a roll film back. However these were press cameras meant for hand-held shooting, and not architectural shots, so while it has some movements and can be placed on a tripod, they won't have the same movements as monorail or view camera. On the other hand, they're much more convenient, easy top travel with, and a great way to get into LF photography.

[Brian C. Miller]

Phonoline, maybe my MF to LF experiences can help.

I started with medium format, specifically Pentax 6x7. (still have it!) I also wanted a bit of movements on the lens, enough to get certain landscapes into focus. The first LF camera I bought was a Graflex Super Graphic. When I bought it, I didn't know that the ground glass had been replaced, so the images were just slightly out of focus. When I figured that out and corrected the problem, it turned out to be one sharp box! I now also have a Toyo 45AX, and I like it a lot. Which do I usually use? The Super Graphic, because it folds up with the lens, and I've been riding my bike with it in a bag.

Here's the downside to LF: loading and developing the film. When I started, I initially used Polaroids and Readyloads and Quickloads. Now all of those are gone, and not so many labs handle LF film.

You'll need a changing bag or a totally dark room for loading and unloading the holders. You'll need a spare box for holding the undeveloped film if you send it to a lab.

Developing LF negatives yourself takes some practice, but it is fun!

[Richard Rankin]

I went to Venice without LF equipment, but I would think that there would be restrictions on large cameras and/or tripods. You might want to check on that.

Richard

[chemetov01]

Personally I recommend a linhof technika 6x9.

[phonoline]

I went to Venice without LF equipment, but I would think that there would be restrictions on large cameras and/or tripods. You might want to check on that.

Richard

What do you mean? Legally? Or technically?

[phonoline]

Phonoline, maybe my MF to LF experiences can help.

I started with medium format, specifically Pentax 6x7. (still have it!) I also wanted a bit of movements on the lens, enough to get certain landscapes into focus. The first LF camera I bought was a Graflex Super Graphic. When I bought it, I didn't know that the ground glass had been replaced, so the images were just slightly out of focus. When I figured that out and corrected the problem, it turned out to be one sharp box! I now also have a Toyo 45AX, and I like it a lot. Which do I usually use? The Super Graphic, because it folds up with the lens, and I've been riding my bike with it in a bag.

Here's the downside to LF: loading and developing the film. When I started, I initially used Polaroids and Readyloads and Quickloads. Now all of those are gone, and not so many labs handle LF film.

You'll need a changing bag or a totally dark room for loading and unloading the holders. You'll need a spare box for holding the undeveloped film if you send it to a lab.

Developing LF negatives yourself takes some practice, but it is fun!

Some good points, Brian, I haven't thought about, yet. Esp. the developing and storing undeveloped film part. Rollfilm is so easy to handle.
I will look into the advantages of the Super Graphic, though. Sounds very promising to me and I do like the look and quality of old cameras, cyrus. 1890? Wow. :)

[phonoline]

Personally I recommend a linhof technika 6x9.

what a beauty.
Or this one: http://www.linhof.de/techno.html

[chassis]

I recommend a folding field type 4x5 camera.
I recently started shooting large format
And purchased a near mint Toyo 45AII and two
Lenses in your price range.

Field cameras are portable (you need a backpack or
Some kind of bag/case. They offer all the basic
Movements common to large format cameras.

[Bill_1856]

I'd stick with the Pentax 6x7, but if you MUST go 4x5 then have a look at a good, used Busch Pressman.

[phonoline]

Still medium format but it has tilt & shift capabilities: the Fuji GX 680 I-III. Any thoughts on this one? Could be a progressive transition to large format in terms of handling.

[Brian C. Miller]

While that camera is medium format, I (for a while) owned one and then donated it to a school. The camera and lenses are excellent, but it's bulkiness is between a LF field camera and a LF monorail. You would only be able to use the excellent Fuji lenses, which aren't too common.

[Gem Singer]

The Fuji GX 680 was designed to be used on a tripod. Too large and heavy for hand held usage.

As long as you will be using a tripod anyways, why not get a 4x5 folding flatbed camera that allows for more movements?

If you prefer working with 120 roll film, merely add a roll film back to the 4x5 camera.

[ashlee52]

A great deal depends on whether you have access to a dark room. Loading 4x5 holders, and then developing the sheet film is a great classical skill which many of us now find easy but which takes a while to figure out, and get the equipment for. Part of the appeal of large format photography is that because every sheet requires a lot of work you take the time to make each photograph as well as you can. Historically the edge to edge sharpness and ability to control perspective (converging lines, life like mountains etc.) was a major appeal of large format. I now feel that in the "digital and Photoshop world" achieving a high level of detail, sharpness and perspective control is pretty easy with a DSLR, and that the advantage of large format is the slow careful pace and the beauty of the out of focus parts of a photograph (lets call it the ability to creatively control depth of focus). You even have many photographers on this forum going back to 100 year old lenses to take advantage of their characteristics ( often their glow).

Used large format gear is laughably cheap relative to its original cost, so you can try things out and sell them on if you don't end up liking them. And as others have suggested, the "easy way in" is to use a roll film back on a view camera. Just know that this means composing on a relatively small area of groundglass which makes everything harder than on a bigger ground glass (you sound young enough to have good eyes, many of us old timers have difficulty seeing tiny details at only a few centimeters). Also, unless you buy one of the few 6x9 format cameras, using shorter/wider lenses is hard because they are so close to the film that 4x5 cameras have a hard time retaining the flexibility in the bellows for movements. That's likely why one poster suggested the 6x9 Technika to you. The Century Graphic is another cheaper US equivalent to that, but with limited movements (when I owned one it had all I needed). People will disagree with me, but generally using any lens shorter than 90mm on a 4x5 without bag bellows is a challenge. Some 4x5 cameras can handle 75mm lenses with standard bellows but it is never easy.

The most portable cameras are the Technikas (what I started with) or the folding wooden cameras (Many are excellent, for a new camera I recommend the Chamonix-- which I now use-- or Shen Hau as best values). The Super Grafic is a US equivalent of the technika, and often much cheaper. But if you are in Europe it will be much easier to get lenses mounted for the Technika. Often the best way to get LF equipment is to buy a camera together with lenses, film holders etc on EBay or from a local seller, where "kits" go much cheaper than buying the pieces one at a time.

If you find a monorail camera with a short rail (such as a Sinar on a 12" rail) you can also pack these (sideways) in a photo back pack. In my experience monorails work better with bag bellows than folding cameras... so if you planned to use a 4x5 camera with a roll film back, and wanted to use lenses shorter than 90mm a monorail camera might be a better option. But they are not as light or compact as a folding 4x5 field camera for 4x5 use.

You should probably look for a camera with a "Graphlock" back... this allows you to replace the ground glass with a roll film back. That said, the easiest roll film backs are the Calumet backs which slide in rather than replace the ground glass.

The equipment you will need includes a camera, lens, tripod, magnifier for the ground glass (high power reading glasses are an option), a dark cloth, film holders or a roll film back, a cable release, and a back pack to carry the lot. Plus whatever you need to develop your film. Many people now scan their negatives rather than use a traditional enlarger... but you need some way to print them.

One of the easiest ways to move around with large format gear is to leave the camera on the tripod, put some foam insulation (as padding) around one of the tripod's legs and carry the whole thing over a shoulder. You still need a small bag for film holders etc.

It would really make everything easier to find a LF photographer who can show you their equipment and how the whole drill of making a picture works (LF photographers "make" pictures, they don't "take" them.)

You have absolutely nothing to fear about really old equipment as long as it still works (and is light tight). The greatest large format photographers used equipment that would be considered junk by modern standards. 60 year old lenses are still perfectly fine as long as the shutters are close to accurate. Just plan on the highest speeds being a little slow (or consider that a feature of automatically exposing for the shadows and anticipating a bit of "bellows extension correction").

Taking up large format photography is like learning a new musical instrument. It takes quite a bit of commitment, but the process is its own joy for those who take to it.

[phonoline]

Ashlee: that's what I needed. Thanks so much!

I have decided to stick to my Pentax 67 for now (and the trip to Venice) but I have not rejected the idea of getting into large format. I just feel I have to take a longer road here instead of wanting it quickly all at once. So, I'll try to give it a whole lot more time and find someone who can mentor me.

Thanks again, everyone.

[Jim Andrada]

One thought - a Super Graphic and a monopod. Easy to walk around with and unobtrusive compared to setting up a tripod on a crowded street (or canal???)

And because they were designed for hand held work originally you could even shoot from a gondola. I started with a borrowed Technica some 40 years ago and it was great. Then I moved to a 5 x 7 Linhof which I still love. Just recently I picked up a beautiful Super Graphic and it is great fun because with the "sports finder" frame you really can take handheld shots. A nice camera with lens can be found for a few hundred dollars and it is much lighter than I remember the Linhof being. As well as much cheaper.

[John Kasaian]

One thought - a Super Graphic and a monopod. Easy to walk around with and unobtrusive compared to setting up a tripod on a crowded street (or canal???)

And because they were designed for hand held work originally you could even shoot from a gondola. I started with a borrowed Technica some 40 years ago and it was great. Then I moved to a 5 x 7 Linhof which I still love. Just recently I picked up a beautiful Super Graphic and it is great fun because with the "sports finder" frame you really can take handheld shots. A nice camera with lens can be found for a few hundred dollars and it is much lighter than I remember the Linhof being. As well as much cheaper.

If you're in a canal that had better be a pretty tall monopod
With a Super Graphic or Technika you can shoot hand ;) held

[maybel.autencio012]

Old cameras are really great and still doing good. Even if there are a lot of brands of cameras are coming out,nothing compares to me than the old one..

[John Kasaian]

I haven't seen a copy of View Camera recently (it hasn't been on the shelves at my local Barnes & Nobles in quite awhile) but my treasured back issues are ripe with inspiring portfolios taken with ancient camera with 'garden variety' lenses which I think illustrates the utility of old camera coupled with a talented photographer's imagination and skill.

[SpeedGraphicMan]

Since I am a huge advocate of the Speed Graphic, (and many Graflex cameras in general.) I would suggest you get a Pacemaker Speed Graphic. They are relatively inexpensive (I got mine for $150 US, Condition was excellent). They are also built like a tank... practically indestructible.

Good way to start out in 4x5. If you like 6x7, you are going to love 4x5!