Color Correction Filters - Necessary for E6 Scanning Workflow?

[John Rodriguez]

I only started shooting film this year after shooting digital for the past 6. For the most part I've been able to color balance in post, but I think it would be easier if the chromes were color balanced from the start. However, the big downside is the extra time to setup, I missed an amazing clearing mist shot this weekend because I couldn't get setup in time after already waiting for an hour for the light to be right, adding filter setup time (especially if bothering with a color meter) wouldn't have made it any shorter :)

So - Do you recommend using color correction filters in an E6=>Scan work flow?

* I'm shooting outdoor landscape exclusively, using Provia (sometimes Ektar neg when I need the range).

Recommended filters to start?

[Mark Stahlke]

I missed an amazing clearing mist shot this weekend because I couldn't get setup in time after already waiting for an hour for the light to be right...
Umm, John, what were you doing during that hour you spent waiting for the light?

When I'm shooting E6 films in cloudy conditions or shade, I like an 81B filter. It only takes a few seconds to screw a filter onto a lens. No need for a color meter.

[John Rodriguez]

Umm, John, what were you doing during that hour you spent waiting for the light?


Waiting to see where I was. Visibility was about 25 feet through the fog, so I couldn't find my exact composition until it started to clear (I'd scouted the location the previous day but couldn't find it in the mist).

I know that Charles Cramer was rather exacting in measuring color temp and using the exact appropriate filters to match when he shot film, but I wonder if he'd still take that approach now that he prints digitally.

[Ari]

I leave the colour correction to PS.
If you have to present the chrome as a final, then I'd use filtration.
A good thing to try is a Fujiroid; it will show you, roughly, what's happening in your frame wrt colour temp.

[Mark Woods]

I always use a CT meter when I shoot color. The reason being that if the image being shot is too blue (cool) you'll get noise in the reds when you color correct. If the image is to orange/red you'll get noise in the blues. I'm a firm believer in correcting in camera. This goes for negative too. BTW, it doesn't take that long to take a CT meter reading and place filter over the meter's sensor to see what you're actually getting.

[vinny]

I leave the colour correction to PS.
If you have to present the chrome as a final, then I'd use filtration.
A good thing to try is a Fujiroid; it will show you, roughly, what's happening in your frame wrt colour temp.

Except with LF and the long exposures that go with it, fuji instant film becomes quite blue. It's only useful for up to a couple second exposures.

I only use an 81A from time to time. There are cases where I need an 81b or c but not that often. I'll pick one up eventually. Any corrections are done in Photoshop.

[Ari]

Except with LF and the long exposures that go with it, fuji instant film becomes quite blue. It's only useful for up to a couple second exposures.

True, true; good thing to point out.

[Asher Kelman]

I always use a CT meter when I shoot color. The reason being that if the image being shot is too blue (cool) you'll get noise in the reds when you color correct. If the image is to orange/red you'll get noise in the blues. I'm a firm believer in correcting in camera. This goes for negative too. BTW, it doesn't take that long to take a CT meter reading and place filter over the meter's sensor to see what you're actually getting.


Mark,

What filters do you use. The decamired color compensation filters seem so logical when using a meter. Or do you use CMY filters? They can be so expensive for 5" wide size to cover all my lenses!

Asher

[Mark Woods]

Hello Asher,

I have both the blue and red decamired filters and a complete set of 81 filters (including the 85 B & C). The film I've shot for many years was all tungsten balanced, consequently I only have a few of the blue CCs. I know the cost, I have about 100 6.6"x6.6" filters along with series 9. I'm developing a system to use the series 9 filters on my LF cameras. BTW, you're right, the decamireds are a wonderful solution for CC correction.

How's the room camera coming along?

Mark

[Asher Kelman]

Hello Asher,

I have both the blue and red decamired filters and a complete set of 81 filters (including the 85 B & C). The film I've shot for many years was all tungsten balanced, consequently I only have a few of the blue CCs. I know the cost, I have about 100 6.6"x6.6" filters along with series 9. I'm developing a system to use the series 9 filters on my LF cameras. BTW, you're right, the decamireds are a wonderful solution for CC correction.

How's the room camera coming along?

Mark

Hi Mark,

All the lenses are at S.K. Grimes for mounting in a system to use one shutter. I'm just critiquing my current planning for my Packard shutter and lens filter mount. Have to make sure that there's no vignetting because of the filters. I'm trying to work out whether or not to put the filters together in front of the lens, or having the shutter mounted to the lens board and filters behind the lens attached to the rear of the lens or else in an intermediate rear of the lens matte box with slots for the filters or some combination. The filters are very expensive. If you have 100, then you have a huge investment in filters more than most folk have in their camera!

I am wondering whether 5" square filters would be sufficient. Do the Tiffen glass decamired filters fit into the Lee filter slots? BTW, what are the "series 9" filters?

Asher

[atlcruiser]

After reading some posts here a while back I saw the logic and need for a color meter and in camera adjustments on c41 and e6. I suck at color balance in LR3.

I bought a used minolta color meter and the 2 sets of lee gels in the larger holder with the rubber band lens mount. it works fine and is very quick.

When I am more down and dirty I shoot a grey card and adj in LR3 off of that.

[Mark Woods]

Hello Asher,

Sorry for the late reply. Series 9 filters are the largest series filters made -- to my knowledge. There are series 6, 7, 8, & 9. You can get adapters to fit on the front, or back, of your lens to a series size. That way you have only one size of filter to buy for all of your lenses. Regarding the cash I have invested in filters, it's about $35K. When I had my motion picture cameras and the necessary support equipment to shoot a film or commercial, the filter cost was a small percentage of the overall investment. (I had 30 cases of camera stuff plus a specially built truck and other gear.) I couldn't do it today, just like I couldn't afford my house in Pasadena if I had to buy it all over again -- at least with the amount of time I don't spend working for other people. ;-) I spend most of my time in the darkroom or shooting with my teaching dropped in.

[Frank Petronio]

You could probably skip the fine tune and just use coarser filters, like 10 and 30CC - but other than holding a nice look chrome over a light box, why would you shoot E6 at all, especially if you're scanning yourself? I don't even know why they make E6 film anymore....

You can argue yourself out of filters if suddenly you loose a couple stops of rapidly dwindling light due to a heavier filter. It's a balance if you need to stop movement (blowing grass and branches for instance).

I'm not saying that you shouldn't account for the color temperature but the first and foremost priority should be to get something shot before you loose the light. Gabeesh? If you're crunched, shoot first, fuss later.

[Mark Woods]

Hello Frank,

I guess your approach and mine are significantly different. I plan my shots for time of day/CT/amount of light. I'm very anal about my shots and know from my sensotomitry tests what the effect is when shooting an image with a compromised CT. I agree that you need to shoot your image at any cost, but I don't usually work that way. I know when the CT is compromised in a shot that "noise" will be introduced in the post color correction process. Sometimes it won't be much, but other times it'll make a mess of the image that you thought you could shoot without the correct CT.

BTW, I really enjoy your images.

[Asher Kelman]

Hello Asher,

Sorry for the late reply. Series 9 filters are the largest series filters made -- to my knowledge.

Mark,

I know that they are the largest round filters, but the size in mm is not actually mentioned in the catalogs I've seen so far!

For LF lenses with large diameters and to have no vignetting, I think that 5-6.5" filters are a good idea but they are so expensive!

Asher

[Mark Woods]

The Series 9 filters are 3 1/4" in diameter. The holders will reduce the FOV slightly. You could always put them BTL.

[Frank Petronio]

Hello Frank,

I guess your approach and mine are significantly different. I plan my shots for time of day/CT/amount of light. I'm very anal about my shots and know from my sensotomitry tests what the effect is when shooting an image with a compromised CT. I agree that you need to shoot your image at any cost, but I don't usually work that way. I know when the CT is compromised in a shot that "noise" will be introduced in the post color correction process. Sometimes it won't be much, but other times it'll make a mess of the image that you thought you could shoot without the correct CT.

BTW, I really enjoy your images.

Thanks and that is why you're paid the big bucks!

Seriously though, I don't usually plan the light outdoors, more likely it's a situation where I'm driving along and see a shot and do it before getting run over or being late!

And you're absolutely right, making big moves to color and tonality does degrade parts of the image. Sometimes though, seeing that I do a lot of Photoshop salvage work, especially with poorly-lit smaller-format shots done in lousy light, you just work through it and deal with it. Sometimes it fails. But I'm not out much either - certainly not my job or an expensive movie.

[Mark Woods]

Ah, Frank, you're such a gentleman. I don't shoot much spontaneously. I work spontaneously with the idea I have, but I plot the sun, and I also plot the moon for the shots I do. That's how I roll.

Keep up the good work. And BTW, my personal work is all B&W, but CT still comes into play with that.

[swilf]

It's not only the noise that we should worry about. First, modern transparencies use DIR couplers to boost color saturation: separate images on different layers of film affect each other during color development stage. If color of light is far from neutral, some layers get less exposure, and the process does not work as intended. Second, spectral sensitivities of the layers of film differ from those of the human eye, and spectral dye densities are balanced to spectral sensitivities to produce pleasing image. Pleasing, not accurate. This is lost too if we rely solely on post-processing.

[Asher Kelman]

The Series 9 filters are 3 1/4" in diameter. The holders will reduce the FOV slightly. You could always put them BTL.

Thanks, Mark,

I hope the O.P. wont mind getting into choice of filters for large old lenses! For these I need a large diameter, especially if filters have to be stacked. So square filters, 5"x5", 6"x6" or 6.6" x 6.6" seem to be best. However, they are so ridiculously expensive! I'd love to find some that folk are no longer using!

Asher

[John Rodriguez]

You could probably skip the fine tune and just use coarser filters, like 10 and 30CC - but other than holding a nice look chrome over a light box, why would you shoot E6 at all, especially if you're scanning yourself?

More tonal separation per stop. If it fits in the contrast range slides give me a better final image. However, I shoot neg as well if the situation calls for it.

[Asher Kelman]

How do the 4x4, (100mm), Sinar filters compare to Lee or other color correction/balancing filters?

Asher

[Ben Syverson]

* I'm shooting outdoor landscape exclusively, using Provia (sometimes Ektar neg when I need the range).
Why not just always use Ektar? What advantage does Provia have that you can't get from Ektar?

Surely grain or resolution isn't an issue, so.... ??

[John Rodriguez]

Why not just always use Ektar? What advantage does Provia have that you can't get from Ektar?

Surely grain or resolution isn't an issue, so.... ??

Within a given contrast range I get more tonal information from the chrome. Basically you have more density per stop. This is one thing that I love about film since moving from digital - I can choose my sensor to match the contrast of a scene. Grain isn't an issue, I get all the resolution I need from either. Provia also goes a lot longer without hitting reciprocity failure then Ektar or Portra.

[Asher Kelman]

Within a given contrast range I get more tonal information from the chrome. Basically you have more density per stop. This is one thing that I love about film since moving from digital - I can choose my sensor to match the contrast of a scene. Grain isn't an issue, I get all the resolution I need from either. Provia also goes a lot longer without hitting reciprocity failure then Ektar or Portra.

John,

Also one can print directly to Cibachrome from the transparency! That's a bonus!

Asher

[Mark Woods]

Hello Swilf,

My noise comment is in direct relationship to what you mention. You just say "some layers get less exposure, and the process does not work as intended." I believe that's what I said and also the results. We all know that the film doesn't respond the same way as the eye, it's all an illusion.

Asher,

Check with Visual Products: http://www.visualproducts.com/

There are other used outlets, plus the camera houses that sell used filters at a huge discount.

Good Luck

[John Rodriguez]

Thanks, Mark,

I hope the O.P. wont mind getting into choice of filters for large old lenses! For these I need a large diameter, especially if filters have to be stacked. So square filters, 5"x5", 6"x6" or 6.6" x 6.6" seem to be best. However, they are so ridiculously expensive! I'd love to find some that folk are no longer using!

Asher

I just bought half a Tiffen glass 4x4 decamired red set used from BH for $23 a filter. They look brand new, I'm guessing they were floor models. Now I have a 1 and a 12, need to round out with a 3 and 6.

[Asher Kelman]

I just bought half a Tiffen glass 4x4 decamired red set used from BH for $23 a filter. They look brand new, I'm guessing they were floor models. Now I have a 1 and a 12, need to round out with a 3 and 6.

So, it was you that took them! I have snagged Lee's for $10 a filter, just the blues and one 25 red, but they are resin!

Asher

[swilf]

My noise comment is in direct relationship to what you mention. You just say "some layers get less exposure, and the process does not work as intended." I believe that's what I said and also the results.

What I was trying to convey is that the problem is deeper than just the noise you mentioned. When some layers - say, red-sensitive layer in twilight - get less exposure, we, of course, get some noise trying to recover the image in post-processing. But there are losses more subtle but still important.

[Asher Kelman]

What I was trying to convey is that the problem is deeper than just the noise you mentioned. When some layers - say, red-sensitive layer in twilight - get less exposure, we, of course, get some noise trying to recover the image in post-processing. But there are losses more subtle but still important.

Swilf,

Doesn't that get managed by using one's choice of filters for the lighting color temp and the effects one wants?

Asher

[swilf]

Doesn't that get managed by using one's choice of filters for the lighting color temp and the effects one wants?

Yes, this is a reason for using color correction filters. Even an approximate correction is better than nothing. Even if you have a perfect scanner and the noise is negligible.

[Rust Never Sleeps]

I shoot mainly Velvia 50 and Astia 100F. Have some Kodak E100G coming soon that I can't wait to try. Shot Provia 100F in the past but it has a yellow cast I don't care for too much. Anyway I shoot mainly mountains and I use a KR1.5 and KR3 warming filters from Heliopan. I plan on getting a KR6 soon mainly for winter scenes. These three filters cover pretty much all the color correction I need for the stuff I shoot. I use a pentax digi spot meter so I use whatever filter I think will work best for a scene, not from a color meter reading.

With Dawn and Dusk shots I always use a KR3. Also always use a KR3 with Astia 100F. With Velvia 50 I use the KR1.5 at first or last light unless there is a lot of shade in the the scene that is about zone 4, then I use a KR3 to get rid of the blue cast in the shadows. If a lot of snow is present I use a KR3 regardless of film and soon a KR6 in this situation. Overcast days also a KR3.

Beside the KR filters I might get a Singh-Ray LB color combo for films like Astia and E100G, or at least the LB color intensifier.

[Mark Woods]

Swilf,

If you Goggle me as Mark Woods Cinematographer, not only will I come up first, but you can find the technical articles I've written about this subject. Not only does one need to consider the luminescence of the object being photographed, but one also needs to expose the film/digital capture at the optimum color temperature. That doesn't mean that all images are exposed at the same CT, but that the image is exposed at the CT the artist desires for the desired effect. My comment about noise was a simplification of the actual senitometry taking place on the emulsion. If you'd like to have a longer conversation, please let me know.

[swilf]

Thanks for the hint, I'm reading some of your articles right now.
Such a simplification might be misleading for some people. Some digital enthusiast with a drum scanner might think that color correction filters are a part of the obsolete workflow.

[Asher Kelman]

one also needs to expose the film/digital capture at the optimum color temperature.

Mark,

How do color meters take into account the iso-effect line in the Plankian locus plot of color temp on a map of colors.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/PlanckianLocus.png/533px-PlanckianLocus.png

Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature)


As you can see there are a lot of different chromaticities represented at each iso temp line perpendicular to the temperature axis. For example, it appears that a temperature of 10,000 degrees K could be seen in a color varying from green through cyan and blue to magenta! So do the meters actually isolate amber-blue from magenta-cyan? Or is the magenta cyan also used in determining color temp? Also are there meters that give the relative proprtions of cyan and blue in the light too to qualify the color temperature beyond amber to blue?

Asher

[Drew Wiley]

Asher - color temp meters don't analyze actual color makeup, but how you need to
balance film in relation to the temp the film was mfg for. So they don't solve every
hypothetical problem, but do get you onto first base more quickly. The better color
temp meters do take into acct the magenta vs green cc issues, as well as warm/cool
amber vs blue.

[Asher Kelman]

Asher - color temp meters don't analyze actual color makeup, but how you need to
balance film in relation to the temp the film was mfg for. So they don't solve every
hypothetical problem, but do get you onto first base more quickly. The better color
temp meters do take into acct the magenta vs green cc issues, as well as warm/cool
amber vs blue.

Thanks Drew. I've a Gossen color meter on the way. It gives color temp and recommends filters for the type of film used in Amber-blue and Cyan-Magenta. Then we'd add what the paper demands and that's the opening step of the trials to get the color right. For Provia etc I'll just get any bad hues corrected but with Ciba, transfer all the corrections I can to filtering the lights used.

Right now, I'm trying to make Provia slides worthy of enlarging on to Ciba paper. Small steps! Using 8x10 I can have a wider aperture than the f22 of the 760mm lens for giant prints. This is my cautious entrance to Ciba. That means I can use my current strobes! I used f 5.6 on my PS 945. I'll move to f8.0 as at 5.6 DOF was razor for thin full length portraits. (Yes I know that lens is mean for 4x5!!). I'll be switching to a 13" P&S Visual Quality #2 Series IV lens that can also be used rather wide open. It has to come back from SK grimes with the front mounted Packard shutter. :)

Asher

[Mark Woods]

Hello Asher,

Drew is absolutely correct. And I'm sure you know that CIE chart is three dimensional. Where you see the "white" point, directly behind it is the "black" point. BTW, when you use filters, put the filter over the meter to see the actual effect of color shift. Not all filters are created equal and consequently don't "correct" the light equally.

BTW, in digital capture the sensors are optimized for a particular CT. If one knows what that is, one can optimize the exposure to take advantage of it.