Jobo 4x5 development

[psychoanalyst]

Hello All,

I finally ready to move on from my pathetic dip and dunk setup. I was using Silicon wafer boats (sorry I am a microelectronics geek) to load the films, but they are frustratingly difficult to load in the dark. Besides, those boats are designed for 4" silicon wafers that are rigid. The 4x5 sheets tend to stick to one another unless they are reasonably space apart and that can be a problem in the dark.

Tray development is not for me.

I saw a video of the Jobo 4x5 reel drum and really loved it. But looks like there are a zillion models.

I was hoping for some recommendations. I am looking for an all manual tank as the automated processors are way beyond my shoestring student budget.

I am happy as long as I can process 4-5 sheets at once, so I am not really looking for high throughput either.

It will be used for both B&W as well as E-6/C-41 color (I have HP5+ as well as Velvia 50) 4x5.

Thanks a lot.

Avi

[jeroldharter]

The 3010 drums have 10 internal tubes for 4x5.

The 3006 tubes have 6 slots for 4x5 or 5x7.

The 2500 series tanks can be used with the 4x5 reels. Those kits are cheaper but a little more fiddly.

Any of the drums can be used manually, either on the Jobo manual roller base or more simply on a Unicolor or Beseler electric roller base.

[Roger Cole]

I have the 2900n reels with the associated 2500 series tanks, a 2523 (actually two of them) that can take one 2509n reel with six sheets of 4x5, and a 2553 which can take two reels so I can do 12 sheets at once.

It's possible to load the 2509n reels without the loader base accessory but I'm kind of a klutz once I turn the lights off and wouldn't want to do it that way. With the loader base it's quite easy. Easier, in fact, than the plastic Jobo roll film reels which are pretty easy themselves and WAY easier than the SS reels that most people swear by but I never really liked or got the hang of.

I use mine on a Jobo CPE2 processor but you don't have to. You can't, however, just roll it on the table unless you use a lot more solution because the tilt from the lid would really mess up the solution level. You'd need the Jobo manual base (crops up on the 'bay from time to time) or one of the roller bases mentioned above or, if you're handy, you could probably make something.

[psychoanalyst]

Thanks a lot folks. Looks like I will be putting up a WTB on the forum.

Have either of you tried the Unicolor or Beseler roll drums instead of the Jobo...the Jobo looks nice and pretty but is also quite expensive, even for the low end model like the 2509N.

But thanks for the tip on the electric roller base.

Avi

[atlcruiser]

I use the 2509n reels and tanks. I have no issue loading them without the guide. I honestly think the guide would piss me off!

Greg Blank on here can get them new or e bay has them all over. I have a CPE2+ so I use both the short and long tanks. If you plan to use a roller base i think you would wnat the longer tank so that it fits easier.

With 2, 2509n reels in a large tank you get 12 exposures at once; one reel 6 exposures. I paid about $250 for my reel set up of 2 reels, short tank, long tank. I think now I would have been netter off to spend $500ish and get the expert drum to hold 10. I use the expert drum for 810 and love it.

For 810 the expert drums are much better than any other option. For 45 the expert drums really shine in that they are so much faster to load and there are less parts to keep up with. My darkroom time is very limited so if I can save 10 min loading reels that is a good thing.


The atlanta folks should meet up one Sat afternoon....

[Michael Graves]

I used the 2509 reels for quite a while before I lucked into a 3010. I found that the best way to get optimum results was to only load five sheets. I don't know if it was just me (very likely) or a flaw in the design, but I got inconsistent development if all six films were loaded. And I agree with David. The guides just pissed me off.

[sully75]

I have a Unicolor 8x10 tank I could sell you.

That said, I think the thing would be better off in the trash. It's hard to find something that will keep the sheets from overlapping (I used binder clips, which mostly worked, except when they didn't). This one doesn't leak, yet.

I would highly recomend you keep your eye out for a Chromega drum. Some Chromega drums are labeled "Bessler" but the actual Bessler drums are different (and crappier). The chromega drums are rarer, but they are much easier to load, and the inserts (you have to make sure you have the inserts!!) are very positive in the way they lock the film in. Besslers are terrible in my opinion, very hard to load. Unicolors are just slightly better. Chromegas are actually "good".

[Ari]

A 2553 tank takes two reels, and lets you process 12 sheets at a time.
I've used that for the last three years and would not want anything else.

[psychoanalyst]

Thanks folks.....I read about the issues with films overlapping in Unidrums.....so the best solution might be to get a Uniroller/Beseler base and use maybe a Jobo 2509N drum?

What is a good price for the unidrum alone you think?

Ari..thanks for the suggestion, but anything that can process more than 5-6 sheets at once is way overkill for me....I am looking for the smallest system (minimizing chemistry usage I guess) that can process 4x5.

Thanks a ton folks.

Avi

[sully75]

chromega dude. cheap and good. you just have to hunt for them.

[Ari]

Avi,
There is a 2551 drum for a single 6-sheet reel.
This is more practical and economical, but I found it too small to fit on my motorized base, so I sold it.

[psychoanalyst]

Ari,

So what is the difference between the 2551 drum and the 2509N drum? Looks like the 2551 is no longer sold.....a kind member of the LF forum offered me the Uniroller, so I am thinking that+2551 (if I can find one) would be a great combo to start with.

Avi

[Brian C. Miller]

The 2509N is a reel for holding the film. It fits inside the drum.

The last time I saw 2509N and drums was at Glazer's Camera (http://www.glazerscamera.com/) film store. Send them an email and see if they still have them in stock. The guys there are really helpful.

[Ari]

Avi,
Brian is correct.
The 2551 is a 1-reel tank, the 2553 is a 2-reel tank.
Both use the 2509 reels.

The hard part is finding them since they are out of production.
Post a WTB here and shop, shop, shop!
Good luck.

[jeroldharter]

I use Jobo tanks on a Beseler motorized base. I sold my CPP hoping to simplify my setup since I am not doing color. So far, no regrets.

There is an excellent video showing you how it is done here:

http://michaelegordon.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/how-to-video-daylight-sheet-film-4x5-development-2/

[jeroldharter]

I meant to add:

The 2500 tanks with 2509(N) reels are nice for doing lots of sheets at once if you have enough reels and tanks. But they are not so good for doing multiple batches of film because you must thoroughly dry all of the reels.

The expert drums are simpler to use, cost more, are easier to load, and can be dried more easily before processing the next batch.

Either series can be used on the motor base. The Beseler motor base is what I prefer because it has a switch on the front to change the direction of rotation. The Unicolor motor base has an internal switch that automatically reverses the rotation, but it reverses to soon given the long circumference of the Jobo drums. The trick is to open up the unit, unscrew the switch button, cut a window in the plastic housing to accommodate the switch button, and then screw the housing back on. The switch fits on the side by friction and then you manually reverse rotation with the button. You can search for more details. I did it without much cursing and it works fine. I bought a few motor bases figuring that they won't last forever.

[Roger Cole]

I use the 2509n reels and tanks. I have no issue loading them without the guide. I honestly think the guide would piss me off!

Greg Blank on here can get them new or e bay has them all over. I have a CPE2+ so I use both the short and long tanks. If you plan to use a roller base i think you would wnat the longer tank so that it fits easier.

With 2, 2509n reels in a large tank you get 12 exposures at once; one reel 6 exposures. I paid about $250 for my reel set up of 2 reels, short tank, long tank. I think now I would have been netter off to spend $500ish and get the expert drum to hold 10. I use the expert drum for 810 and love it.

For 810 the expert drums are much better than any other option. For 45 the expert drums really shine in that they are so much faster to load and there are less parts to keep up with. My darkroom time is very limited so if I can save 10 min loading reels that is a good thing.


The atlanta folks should meet up one Sat afternoon....

I started out with the loader base and found it easy. I tried loading without it and couldn't really get the hang of it. I can do it with practice sheets with the lights on but that's about it. Turn the lights off and it frustrates me. But I seem to be the exception to most rules about what's easy to load. I find the Jobo plastic roll film reels the easiest reels to load that I've ever used, and never could really reliably get the hang of stainless for 35mm (sometimes I could load it, more often I couldn't get all of a 36 exposure roll on the reel.) I never even tried 120 on stainless.

So...it's certainly possible. Some people prefer not using the loader base. Me, I like it, makes loading easy for me.

You use an expert drum on a CPE2+? I've heard it's possible with some of the drums, just not good for the motor. I have a CPE2 non-plus. I'm very fond of the Jobo. If it broke I'd be looking for another and since they aren't made any more I tend to treat it as delicately as possible.

We had some Atlanta folks talking via email about a meet up once before, but scheduling never worked out. Often enough my schedule was the problem since I work weird hours (lots of nights, plus some days) and off and on travel on weekends. But I'm game for trying again.


I used the 2509 reels for quite a while before I lucked into a 3010. I found that the best way to get optimum results was to only load five sheets. I don't know if it was just me (very likely) or a flaw in the design, but I got inconsistent development if all six films were loaded. And I agree with David. The guides just pissed me off.

There are actually two generations of the reels. The original was the 2509. Some people had problems with uneven development or the sheets touching and Jobo later recommended loading only four sheets, the inside and outside slots, leaving the middle slots unloaded to put more space between the sheets. They then released the modified second generation 2509n. The n has plastic "paddles" that snap in place on each side after you've loaded the film. Opinions differ on whether the paddles are necessary or even help. I have them so I use them. I'm not sure of the other design differences between the 2509 and 2509n since I only have the n. As far as sheets touching, it's easy to feel with your fingers that they are loaded properly. On the n they sort of snap into place when fully inserted and can't be pulled directly back out (you'll notice this when you remove the finished negatives too - you have to sort of peel them out, which is easy and does no harm.) I've always just used the plastic paddles as designed after carefully feeling that the sheets are loaded properly and never had a problem.


A 2553 tank takes two reels, and lets you process 12 sheets at a time.
I've used that for the last three years and would not want anything else.

Jobo's numbers mean more than they seem so let me break that down a little:

1. There's a 1500 series of film tanks, a 2500 series of film tanks, and a 2800 series of paper drums. The 1500 series cannot be used for 4x5, at least not directly that I'm aware of. They are smaller diameter so use less solution. I have some for 35mm where the solution savings can be significant, and they can also be used for inversion as normal tanks with the proper lid (I'll get to that.) I use mine for 35mm and 120 inversion processing for developers I don't want to use with rotary processing.

2. The 2500 film tanks use larger diameter reels (2502) for roll film, and can take the 2509(n) sheet film reels. You wouldn't likely want to use them for inversion because of the required solution volume though it would be possible.

3. The 2800 series for paper have the same bodies as the 2500 series. The difference is in the funnel inside the lid. Those can be changed back and forth easily essentially converting a 2500 to a 2800 or vice versa.

4. The third digit for film tanks tells you the capacity of the tank in 35mm reels. So a 2521 or 2523 tank can hold two reels set for 35mm, or one set for 120/220 or one 2509(n) sheet film reel. The 2551 and 2553 can hold five 35mm or two sheet film reels.

5. The last digit refers to the lid. A "3" means a cog lid for use with a processor that has the lift accessory. I have the lift, which is nice though not essential on a processor, so all mine are 3s. (Well actually I have a regular lid I got with the 2820 I discuss below, so I could use that lid and make them 1s.) For use with a roller base or inversion the cog lid will not work. The solution would run out. A final "1" means it has a lid with a rubber (more like flexible plastic I think) cap for use with a processor without a lift (in which case it needs a magnet on the other end of the tank) or for inversion or a roller base. This is the one you need to use it without a lift.

You can swap the lids easily so one tank can be used, with the right funnel, for paper or film, and with either a cog or rubber lid with the lift or without the lift.


Thanks folks.....I read about the issues with films overlapping in Unidrums.....so the best solution might be to get a Uniroller/Beseler base and use maybe a Jobo 2509N drum?

What is a good price for the unidrum alone you think?

Ari..thanks for the suggestion, but anything that can process more than 5-6 sheets at once is way overkill for me....I am looking for the smallest system (minimizing chemistry usage I guess) that can process 4x5.

Thanks a ton folks.

Avi

In the Jobo line there is also the 2820 test drum. The 8 means it was designed for paper. It's really meant to be used for making two 4x5 test prints on paper, but can be used for processing two 4x5 sheets of film, in 40ml of chemistry. I bought one before I realized it had exactly the same body as my 2523 tanks and I didn't need to buy another. Harrumph. Anyway, I haven't tried this yet. There are threads on here about it. I'll get around to trying it.

There's a guy on eBay now who has been selling very good condition Jobo stuff lately and gets more regularly. It isn't cheap but is priced about what the market seems to be for its condition and I've had no issues with him. Sometimes you can find bargains. I got the 2820 and an extension module I didn't want and can't use for a lot less money. It needs cleaning but seems to be quite workable.

[psychoanalyst]

Avi,
There is a 2551 drum for a single 6-sheet reel.
This is more practical and economical, but I found it too small to fit on my motorized base, so I sold it.

So, the smallest drum I would need to run it on a Unicolor/Besler base would be the 2553?

Is it ok to run it with just 1 2509 reel? And how much chemistry would I need?

Avi

[jeroldharter]

So, the smallest drum I would need to run it on a Unicolor/Besler base would be the 2553?

Is it ok to run it with just 1 2509 reel? And how much chemistry would I need?

Avi

That drum is pretty short. I would check to make sure it is long enough. I would get the two reel drum. You can use just one reel if you like but the longer length of the tube is easy to work with on the motor base.

[Roger Cole]

That drum is pretty short. I would check to make sure it is long enough. I would get the two reel drum. You can use just one reel if you like but the longer length of the tube is easy to work with on the motor base.

The 2553 (you actually need a 2551 for use on a roller base, not a 3) IS a two reel drum.

The "pretty short" one is the 2523/2521, which holds two 35mm or one sheet film reel.

[psychoanalyst]

thanks jerold...

Put in a WTB for the 2553.....no responses yet...will wait and see...

so is the unicolor drum a complete no no?

Avi

[psychoanalyst]

Roger...so the 2551 is long enough to run on the Beseler/Unicolor drum?

Yes...the Atlanta folks should definitely meet. I have another friend who is currently away in Germany, who is also a photo enthusiast......will have to work out time, since I am busy with my thesis currently.

[Roger Cole]

Roger...so the 2551 is long enough to run on the Beseler/Unicolor drum?

Yes...the Atlanta folks should definitely meet. I have another friend who is currently away in Germany, who is also a photo enthusiast......will have to work out time, since I am busy with my thesis currently.

I don't know. I doubt it. The 2551 is pretty short, but it's been years since I've seen a roller base.

[Roger Cole]

Ok, I just went down to the basement darkroom with iPhone and beverage in hand to shoot a few quick digisnaps to illustrate the size.

The first one shows the 2523 and 2553 side by side with the bottle beside them for size comparison.

The second shows the different lids. The one on the left is the cog lid for use with a lift accesory. You can still find the cogs (sometimes) and convert a regular lid to a cog lid, but the cog snaps permanently in place and you can't remove it. The lid on the right is the one you'd use for a processor without a lift (with a magnet on the other end of the tank, not shown) or for inversion or with a roller base. The orange lid snaps on the opening. I lightened and lowered the contrast to try to show some detail in the all black lids.

The final photo is the 2509n reel on the loader base. The guide on the left clicks into place. You rotate the reel and count the clicks. A click means it's lined up with the next slot and you slide the sheet in through the guide. It's easier to do or demonstrate than describe. To me it's easier (understatement) than loading the reel without it, but I'm out numbered 2:1 in this thread. ;)

[psychoanalyst]

Roger, thanks....I checked on other threads and it appears that the 2551 is the smallest you can go with the uniroller.

Btw.....can I use the same technique (jobo+motor base method) for both color and BW? what would the processing differences be apart from the chemistry of course.

Thanks.

Avi

[Roger Cole]

Roger, thanks....I checked on other threads and it appears that the 2551 is the smallest you can go with the uniroller.

Btw.....can I use the same technique (jobo+motor base method) for both color and BW? what would the processing differences be apart from the chemistry of course.

Thanks.

Avi

Don't see why not. I use them on the CPE2 for both black and white and color. You won't, however, get the water bath temperature control.

[psychoanalyst]

Thanks Roger....

So, I am trying to do some cost optimization here. I wonder if a jobo 4x5 reel would fit inside a unicolor drum, so that I can use the latter in lieu of the way more expensive jobo 2551?

Avi

[Greg Blank]

I have a Unicolor 11x14 print drum and a 2502 Duo-reel (same circumference as the 2509N -I beleive). The Unicolor drum has two raised grooves that block the reel from going inside.


Thanks Roger....
I wonder if a jobo 4x5 reel would fit inside a unicolor drum, so that I can use the latter in lieu of the way more expensive jobo 2551?
Avi

[jeroldharter]

Thanks Roger....

So, I am trying to do some cost optimization here. I wonder if a jobo 4x5 reel would fit inside a unicolor drum, so that I can use the latter in lieu of the way more expensive jobo 2551?

Avi

Even if the reel fits, you need the internal mechanism that prevents the reel from rotating within the spinning drum. You will need to pony up for the Jobo.

Color requires more careful temperature control. Some chemistry kits are more forgiving than others. Some use the pas by method in which they account for a given temperature drop over the minutes of processing and shoot for the average. In other words, after some experimentation, start a few degrees hot and finish a few degrees cool.

For B&W, I use the RH Designs Processmaster time with a temperature probe which adjusts the time of the timer based on the measured temperature. Since I cannot put the temp probe inside a Sinning Jobo drum, I use the small single reel drum. I fill it with water stored in the same tempering bath as my developer so that it's temperature change simulates the change in the processing drum. I have no way to verify that it works other than the results which are consistent. My temps don't vary widely though.

[Lenny Eiger]

This is all very interesting, but I happen to like the Jobo base.... Maybe it isn't cheaper, but the nice temp control and tempering bath all work very nice. I wish they were still available.. and less expensive. I think that money is quite unimportant when it comes to photography. Just look at any of the threads where they ask how many cameras do you have, or how many lenses do you carry. We all have the disease (or, apparently almost all of us) and its best to just give in, and then you get back to some shooting.... ;-)

Lenny

[psychoanalyst]

Even if the reel fits, you need the internal mechanism that prevents the reel from rotating within the spinning drum. You will need to pony up for the Jobo.


So, Jerold.....regarding the combo of the 2509N and the 2551 on a Unicolor motor base...

Does the 2509N freely spin inside the drum when the latter is spinning or is it fixed? And the other question is whether I would need the retainer panels when using the above method?

Avi

[psychoanalyst]

This is all very interesting, but I happen to like the Jobo base.... Maybe it isn't cheaper, but the nice temp control and tempering bath all work very nice. I wish they were still available.. and less expensive. I think that money is quite unimportant when it comes to photography. Just look at any of the threads where they ask how many cameras do you have, or how many lenses do you carry. We all have the disease (or, apparently almost all of us) and its best to just give in, and then you get back to some shooting.... ;-)

Lenny

Lenny,

How i wish I could do that. But photography does not pay me (neither do I want it to), so I need to watch my finances. But yes.....I do have that contagious disease that we all seem to! But its a fun disease to contract.!:)

Avi

[Roger Cole]

So, Jerold.....regarding the combo of the 2509N and the 2551 on a Unicolor motor base...

Does the 2509N freely spin inside the drum when the latter is spinning or is it fixed? And the other question is whether I would need the retainer panels when using the above method?

Avi

There is a "core" piece of plastic tubing that goes through the reel or reels (different length depending on the tank) and secures into the light trap funnel on the top and interlocks with the tank on the bottom to keep it from spinning, and also is a part of the light trap. I did accidentally leave it out once with the 2509 and didn't notice any problems and no fogging, but I think I was lucky.

[chassis]

Is it too late to put in a suggestion for BTZS tubes? I find these very easy to use for 4x5 film development. There are no moving parts, the process is easy and thrifty on chemicals, and the setup costs around $150 new.

[Roger Cole]

If I didn't have the Jobo I'd probably go with BTZS myself, at least for black and white, ESPECIALLY if I didn't want to spring for a processor.

If my Jobo broke I'd get another, but if money is at a premium the BTZS tubes are a very viable alternative.

[jeroldharter]

Given the stated budget constraints, BTZS tubes are a great option. Relative to Jobo gear, BTZS tubes are essentially free, even f purchased new.

You can process upto 6 sheets per round, each with a unique development time. They are easy to load. You can do much of the processing in daylight

If you are really trying to go cheap on gear, check our a slosher tray from Photographer's Formulary. It allows you to process 1-6 sheets in an 11x14 tray.

[psychoanalyst]

Is it too late to put in a suggestion for BTZS tubes? I find these very easy to use for 4x5 film development. There are no moving parts, the process is easy and thrifty on chemicals, and the setup costs around $150 new.

Yes...that is an option too....but I managed to track down 2 of 3 parts required for the roller processing (I have an offer for the Unidrum and the 2551 Jobo tank and still looking for the 2509N reel) and so far the costs seem under $200 for all 3.

I did check the BTZS tube, but I do like the "automation" of the motor base method. But I guess that BTZS allows for more experimentation with development times.

And of course the fact that temperature control would be easier in BTZS and I do intend to do E-6 processing.

Ahh......choices!!

[psychoanalyst]

Given the stated budget constraints, BTZS tubes are a great option. Relative to Jobo gear, BTZS tubes are essentially free, even f purchased new.

You can process upto 6 sheets per round, each with a unique development time. They are easy to load. You can do much of the processing in daylight

If you are really trying to go cheap on gear, check our a slosher tray from Photographer's Formulary. It allows you to process 1-6 sheets in an 11x14 tray.

Jerold,

The sloshers look nice...in fact I can easily build one myself. But I would like a daylight system.

Avi

[jeroldharter]

BTZS tubes would not work for E-6.

A slosher has some advantages. It has 6 individual compartments and fits in an 11x14 inch tray. So you can drop each sheet in at a different time if you need to. Likelihood of scratching is minimal. Once the slosher is moved to the fixer tray, you can turn the room lights on so it is not too much time in the dark.

If you have a bunch of film to process, you can just rinse off the slosher and put it back in the developer tray - no need to dry anything. You can process a lot of film quickly.

A slosher is the least expensive option at $60. It has only one part, nothing to break or fail, no electricity, easy temp control, option to try stand development if you like.

Down sides are developing in the dark, moremsink space needed for the trays, larger volume of developer needed.

If you are emphasizing budget, I would at least give a slosher tray a shot. They are easy to resell if you don't like it.

[psychoanalyst]

Jerold,

It definitely is the cheapest option.......in fact I am going to build one from acrylic sheets over the week...

I have 8x10 trays, so I am going to start with something I can fit inside that. Even 3 sheets at a time is just fine.

Can the chemistry be reused? Because I would imagine that a slosher would require a ton of chemistry?

Also....this might create a problem for E-6 processing because (i) I planned to buy the cheap low volume kits and (ii) maintaining temperature across such a large volume might be a problem?

Thanks a lot for all your suggestions. Atleast I know what is out there and can make a proper choice.

Avi

[jeroldharter]

Jobo is the way to go for color. But large format color E-6 and budget are not usually possible.

11x14 trays are inexpensive. I err on the side of slightly oversized trays for the developer so that there is adequate room for sloshing, e.g. a 12x16 inch tray for the 11x14 inch slosher. The other trays I don't fuss over. But keep in mind that different brands have different interior dimensions with some being a bit smallish.

The stop, fixer, hypo clear can all be re-used up to capacity.

Developer can be re-used as well. But I try to stick with one shot developers. Depending on the volume of developer in the tray, I might consider "one-shot" to be a run of 2-3 batches, or 12-18 sheets. If you want to used a replenished developer that would be easy enough.

If you make your own, make sure you grind down all the edges so it does not scratch film. That is one of the advantages of the Photographer's Formulary or Summitec slosher, both of which are finished very well.

[psychoanalyst]

Any estimates of how much a Jobo 3006 or a 3010 (I prefer the former) is expected to cost?

Fleabay prices are untouchable as they usually tend to be.

Thanks.

Avi

[Greg Blank]

If you are complaining about what they cost on Ebay you probably should just skip thinking new.

[psychoanalyst]

Greg...you are right.

But I am looking for ballpark estimates from all you guys so that I can at least ensure that I don't overpay even though I might have to pay quite a bit.

Avi

[jeroldharter]

Expect to pay $400-500 for an expert drum.

[Sirius Glass]

I paid $530 for a new 3010 from FreeStyle. If a used one costs $400-$500, I would rather buy a new one.

[psychoanalyst]

An auction just ended for a jobo 3006 for $350 shipped. But I decided to save the money. I picked up 3 unicolor drums and 1 Chromega for 10 times less. I can always upgrade to the jobo in the future.

Avi

[Roger Cole]

Expert drums are nice but the 2509n reels and tanks work well and are MUCH cheaper, AND they can be used on a CPE2/2+ later if you want to get one, without over stressing the motor, where the Expert drums need the more expensive CPA or CPP. You can often get CPE2s in the $350-$400 range.

[psychoanalyst]

Expert drums are nice but the 2509n reels and tanks work well and are MUCH cheaper, AND they can be used on a CPE2/2+ later if you want to get one, without over stressing the motor, where the Expert drums need the more expensive CPA or CPP. You can often get CPE2s in the $350-$400 range.

Roger..that is something I should keep in mind. Thanks for that tip.

Avi