Washing Film and Water Consumption - A Survey

[Michael Kadillak]

In this day and age of having to pay (sometimes dearly when I open up my monthly bill) for our water that we use to wash film and prints and the constant drum beat in our society of being "efficient" in the use of natural resources, I thought it would be an interesting exercise to share our personal experience with the tools that we use to accomplish this objective and let the audience benefit from this information. Not sure if this is a subject that has been collected previously. Maybe the next time you are washing prints and/or sheet film measure your water flow rate and share this information along with the specific equipment you are using and how long it takes you to accomplish your wash.

I will start. This afternoon I washed some 11x14 and 8x10 negatives in an Inglis dedicated sheet film washer and in the process I calculated a water flow rate of 1 Gallon Per Minute. My wash time is 15 minutes so my wash cycle per format used 15 gallons of water, which I felt was pretty reasonable all things considered.

If nothing else it will give me some factual information with which to defend myself as an "efficient" analog photographer that takes these issues seriously.

[Jay DeFehr]

It depends on how I'm processing. If I'm processing in a daylight tank, like a JOBO or Paterson film tank, I use the Ilford archival wash sequence, which requires about 2 liters/ 8x10 sheet, or equivalent. By this method I could wash more than 50 8x10 sheets in 15 gal of water.

[Erik Larsen]

I use a jobo or motor base with 10 cycles of 1 liter fill and dump per 2-8x10, 1-11x14 or 12-4x5. No hypo to be found on the negs. My print washer (versalab) uses way more water so I forgo a shower if I know I will washing prints to make myself feel less guilty plus it keeps people away from me when I need to concentrate in the darkroom:)
Regards
Erik

[Jim Jones]

For low volume film and print development, washing sequentially in several trays (perhaps many trays for fiber paper) uses less water than the above methods. After a few sheets have been washed in the first tray, they are moved to the second and the first tray dumped. The second tray will be the first tray for the next series of sheets. Work RC prints hastily processed thus in three trays are almost all good 35 years later. Negatives get a final bath in distilled water with Photo-flo. By that stage the negatives don't contaminate the final bath, so it can be used for the entire darkroom session. One must be careful to avoid contamination with tray washing.

[Daniel Stone]

Michael,

you've brought up a very valid point. Water prices(at least where I live) aren't going down, and even if there was an "unlimited" supply of clean, fresh water, its still good practice IMO to use ones materials as wisely and efficiently as possible. The past few months I've been saving ~$2/day to get one of these Inglis film washers(8x10), but since I've been using rollfilm a lot lately, I have dipped into that savings pot to purchase film to feed the Hasselblad ;). Not much, but enough to set me back 2mo or so...

On another note,
could anyone who owns an Inglis cross-jet film/print washer make up some sort of video and post it online? I'm not usually one to buy things unless I can see them in action(if possible), but since its kinda spendy $$$-wise, I'd like to get a clearer picture of what it does exactly, differently than other washers.

anyone willing to make a short(say 1-2min) video?

thanks

-Dan

[ic-racer]

Large format film in-drum wash:
one min rinse
one min Permawash
three changes of 500ml at 1 then 2 and finally 3 minutes (total 6 min and 1500ml)

[Bill McMannis]

For prints I use a washer made from a kit from Fine Art Photo Supply and a ten gallon aquarium. As I process print they go into the washer which is filled with fresh water at the beginning of the session. After my printing session concludes, the prints soak for 45 minutes. After 45 minutes I drain the tank and refill. After another 45 minute soak the prints are squeegied and placed in the dryer. A typical darkroom session will have ten to fourteen 8x10 prints or eight 11x14's. For what it is worth, the instructions that came with the washer recommended two 30-minute soaks, but that proved inadequate atleast for fiber based paper.

For negatives I use a Jobo 3010 which I let water trickle into the open tank for 30 minutes; probably ten gallons of water as this is a slow trickle. Like another poster, each negative is dipped in PhotoFlo/distilled water and then hung to dry.

[Leigh]

Permawash, like ic-racer said.

It cuts the film wash time down to almost nothing.

- Leigh

[Michael Kadillak]

OK. Let me play Devils advocate. Have any of you tested your wash times for residual fixer on your film or prints or have you just called it good because no problems have been encountered?

[Bill McMannis]

OK. Let me play Devils advocate. Have any of you tested your wash times for residual fixer on your film or prints or have you just called it good?

In my case, no. As I explained I increased wash time (from 2x30' to 2x45') because I did not like the way prints dried down with the two shorter saoking sessions. Increasing the time delivered better results, but there may still be residual fixer on the paper.

[Leigh]

I checked the Permawash results a few times, and always found it completely reliable.

Haven't done so in many years, because I don't think it's necessary.

And a point, if I may...
'Soaking' is not the same as 'washing'. The latter carries away residual hypo; the former does not.

- Leigh

[Jay DeFehr]

Leigh,

The washing process is mostly one of diffusion, so soaking is washing, but there comes a point when the soak water is in equilibrium with the emulsion, and no further diffusion takes place, which is why consecutive soaks in fresh water are required.

[Bill McMannis]

And a point, if I may...
'Soaking' is not the same as 'washing'. The latter carries away residual hypo; the former does not.

- Leigh

Hi Leigh,

I cannot put my hands on the instructions that came with my washer (I bought it about nine years ago), but the original owner of Fine Art Photo Supply contended that rinsing in water was far less effective than a couple of soaks. While I never did any scientific testing, the washer was marketed as being an archival washer. I had used washers that consumed quite a bit fo water rinsing prints, but got better results (uniformly dried prints without stains or residue that drymount nicely)with soaking. In my case, I am sticking with soaking.

[Doremus Scudder]

First, as Michael pointed out, unless you are rigorously testing for residual hypo, you don't know if your washing regime is working or not.

Second, if you are interested in processing for optimum permanence, it is better to err on the side of too much washing than not enough.

There is a sticky thread on film washing along with lots of test results on APUG here:
http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/55643-washing-film-best-environmentally-friendly-way-do.html
There are already 22 pages on the thread and lots of expertise shared. I recommend it for those who haven't already read it.

I use a Gravity Works sheet film washer for film. It is a water waster if left running continuously, so I stop the flow after every emptying and refilling of the tank and let it sit for 5 minutes. Normally I wash film for a minimum of 30 minutes (after a 2-bath fix, rinse, but no HCA, since it removes pyro stain). That translates to 6 changes of water in 30 minutes. The tank capacity is approx 2 liters, sot that means 12 liters of water for a load of 12 4x5 sheets. My residual hypo tests for film come out with no stain at all.

For prints, I use either my 16x20 Versalab or 11x14 Paterson washers. The Paterson washers have a self-agitating feature, but rather bad flow patterns, so I have added a piece of tubing with holes every 1/4 inch which sprays water in at the top of the washer. I have no accurate way of measuring the flow rate without in-line flow meters, but I would estimate it significantly higher than 15 gallons/hr. Fortunately, I work in a water-rich area and do not have to pay that much for it. The up side: After one hour of washing, the prints show now stain at all in the residual hypo test (no stain for residual silver either, but that is a fixing issue, not washing).

Best,

Doremus Scudder

[Bruce Watson]

OK. Let me play Devils advocate. Have any of you tested your wash times for residual fixer on your film or prints or have you just called it good because no problems have been encountered?

I have actually run both residual silver (tests fixing time) and residual hypo tests on my process.

I'm using a Jobo CPP-2 with a 3010 tank processing 10 sheets of 5x4 at a time. I use distilled water for the entire process, including all the film washing. Because I'm using distilled water, it's easy to measure -- I have to pour it into the Jobo bottles used in the CPP-2.

Turns out I use almost exactly 6 liters of distilled water per 10 sheets of 5x4 film. This includes all water use, from developer dilution to hanging the film to dry to final rinse of the 3010 drum itself.

I wash the film in the 3010 on the Jobo. It turns out that four wash "cycles" tests out to no residual hypo using a Photographers' Forumlary residual hypo test kit (that is, I can't detect any stain at all). These cycles are fairly quick too -- 1, 1, 2, and 4 minutes, half a liter each.

I've since added an optional fifth wash cycle. Not because of residual hypo, but because of the persistence of the sensitization dyes used in TMY-2. I make the last wash 8 minutes, and the resulting film is much less purple (than it was at the start of the fifth wash cycle) when done.

I could cut my water usage even more -- I could go from XTOL 1:3 to 1:1 (save half a liter), and probably use just a quarter liter on my first couple of washes (save another half liter). But I'm already pretty darn thrifty as it is. I don't feel too badly about my water usage.

[John Kasaian]

My Versalab works at a 1/2 gal/minute flow for 20 minutes. Not bad. Of course you've got to use a wash aid and also fill it up. I know it has over ten 11x14 slots. I also wash outdoors and use the run-off to water my lawn and shubbery. Details on the VersaLab http://www.versalab.com/server/photo/products/washer1.htm

[jp]

For 4x5 film, I use the combiplan with the top off for washing, using about 1.5L for 7 washes over 30 minutes, which is quite efficient. So that's a few gallons of water for 6 4x5's.

8x10 is in tray and I just leave water going and don't measure it. Of course I use a few more gallons rinsing and cleaning things too.

I would be more careful if I was paying for water use. I'm on a well and only pay to pump it up out of the ground. I've never run out of water, and have some natural springs around the house as well, so I don't think water quantity will be a problem.

[Cor]

I have actually run both residual silver (tests fixing time) and residual hypo tests on my process.

I'm using a Jobo CPP-2 with a 3010 tank processing 10 sheets of 5x4 at a time. I use distilled water for the entire process, including all the film washing.

Bruce,

I was using distilled water for washing as well, but I was warned against it, since it is supposed to wash hypo out slower. It had something to do with the osmotic value, in the sense that mineral rich water (as I have over here) is more efficient in removing the hypo salts out. Have to dig up that Email, I am sure I am phrasing this in-correct..

Best,

Cor

[SamReeves]

I usually wash while it's on my Jobo. This does two things. Washes the film, and also cleans out the drum. This does use a lot less water than a off base unit. Then all I have to do is mop it up, and let it dry.

[Ken Lee]

I use the Diskrack Film Washer (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/dishrack.php). Very affordable, no moving parts. Available almost everywhere.

According to Anchell and Troop, in The Film Developing Cookbook, Alkaline Fixers have the following advantages over more traditional Acidic formulas:

Less danger of over-fixing
Shorter washing times
More archival
Greater capacity
More stable
Can be formulated to have low odor.

If you use alkaline fixer, there is no need for hypo clear, and film takes less time to wash. I like the classic TF-3 Alkaline Formula (http://www.digitaltruth.com/data/tf3.php). Because it contains no Hypo, there's no Hypo to clear. It's easy and quick to mix fresh every time.

[Asher Kelman]

Thanks everyone for so generously sharing. This is a valuable thread on washing, cautions on testing for hypo and pointer to the value of the Jobo 3010 as a print washer too.

Ken,

Your note on alkaline fixers is especially helpful!

Asher

[Ken Lee]

Digitaltruth Photo also gives formulas for Fix Test--Hypo Check (http://www.digitaltruth.com/data/fixtest.php) and Washing Aid (http://www.digitaltruth.com/data/washaid.php).

(The active ingredient in the "washing aid" is Sodium Sulfite. The other ingredient is a preservative stabilizer. Sodium Sulfite is so cheap, you can mix a teaspoon per liter of water and toss when done. Sandy King has pointed this out many times.)

[Merg Ross]

Since I often print on successive days, my process involves a lot of soaking. The value of soaking is often overlooked. If I start printing on Monday morning, prints from that day soak in trays overnight until a final wash on Tuesday. The trays are drained and refilled two or three times during the session. The wash-aid is always used as a one-shot. Final wash is in a Versalab. If I am printing during the entire week, this process is repeated.

For my vintage prints from the 1950's I used a Kodak tray siphon with two trays (one elevated). Again, soaking was the key as those prints have stood the test of time (60 years). Except for the use of single weight Azo and Lustrex, my prints have mostly been on double weight papers.

As to water consumption, I probably would not win a prize when using the Versalab. Without a flow meter, I don't really know the rate, but always prefer a final wash in the 45-60 minute range. The wash drains into the garden. Film gets a 10 minute wash in an old tank with a hole in the bottom. Again, the vintage negatives are as good as the day that they first went into sleeves. I have never used a wash aid with negatives.

[DJG]

My volume is so low, I can get away with just letting my film soak overnight in a tray, or at least for a few hours at a time. After following Ilford's wash guide (several sets of fresh water + agitation in my Unicolor drums), I just take them out and put them in a tray. Every so often, as I'm coming or going or doing things around the house, I'll simply empty them and put some fresh water in the trays.

I do the same soaking with silver & alternative process prints, though they never go into any developing drum, everything stays in trays. I still do a couple of quick wash & dump cycles in the tray, kind of like what Ilford says, with a bit of agitation.

Like I said, this works for low volume for me, but of course would be harder to do if you had a lot more media to wash.

[Leigh]

The washing process is mostly one of diffusion, so soaking is washing, but there comes a point when the soak water is in equilibrium with the emulsion, and no further diffusion takes place, which is why consecutive soaks in fresh water are required.
The rate of diffusion decreases over time, being lower after the first minute than initially, etc.

Use of PermaWash or hypo clearing agent or similar reduces the required wash time to just a couple of minutes, which renders the whole question moot.

- Leigh

[Michael Kadillak]

Use of PermaWash or hypo clearing agent or similar reduces the required wash time to just a couple of minutes, which renders the whole question moot.

- Leigh

A hypo clearing agent by itself is not a generic free pass for an effective wash cycle unless one is not that concerned about what one is producing in the form of negatives or prints. As has been stated earlier in this thread this is one area where one should always error on the side of being conservative and wash a bit longer than necessary because there is literally no downside to this procedure other than a bit more water consumed. Being to aggressive and increasing ones reliance upon clearing agents with short wash cycles has obvious and considerable downside that has few remedies when it rears its ugly head. I could be wrong, but I firmly believe that anyone that is will to go to the effort of purchasing high priced sheet film, the expenses of owning equipment to properly expose it, the time and effort to develop and print it is inherently interested in doing it as effectively as possible.

[Leigh]

Michael,

Stop preaching.

Your tone is grossly insulting, implying that anyone who disagrees with you is not interested in producing a quality product.

I've been printing for over 56 years, and have never had an issue with print permanence.

I think I know how to do it!

- Leigh

[Oren Grad]

FWIW: I also wash my sheet film in the Jobo Expert drums, as an integral final step in the processing run on my CPA-2. As an example, a 3005 drum with five sheets of 8x10 gets five changes of about 500ml of water over a ten minute period. That comes out to ~500ml per sheet, which is a pretty economical use of water. I should add, I use non-hardening rapid fixer, and no washing aid.

RC prints get a 2.5 minute wash with a Kodak tray siphon.

FB prints get a modified Ilford treatment - five minutes initial rinse with a Kodak tray siphon, water holding bath until the end of the printing session, then ten minutes in Permawash followed by 30 minutes running wash in a Versalab.

[Oren Grad]

Specifically with respect to print washing, these may be of interest:

Mysteries of the Vortex, Part One (http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=296)

Mysteries of the Vortex, Part Two (http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=344)

[nolindan]

My wash technique varies with the number of prints or negatives to wash.

I normally have 4 or so final prints and use sequential 'agitated soaks' in a deep tray. For more prints I use a tray siphon. I always use HCA - the Kodak formulation which is pH buffered.

I find it necessary to include an extra bit of print and test for residual hypo in every batch of keeper prints. All HCA's are subject to oxidation and stop working with little warning. My experience with Permawash is that it doesn't last long after the bottle is opened - and the wash times given on the PW bottle are wildly optimistic: almost 'stabilization processing.'

[Michael Kadillak]

Michael,

Stop preaching.

Your tone is grossly insulting, implying that anyone who disagrees with you is not interested in producing a quality product.

I've been printing for over 56 years, and have never had an issue with print permanence.

I think I know how to do it!

- Leigh

This is a public forum where a wide range of individuals many of which could be relatively new to LF photography check these posts for information. The reader can sort it out for him or her self. Lately I have no clue as to what sets you off but as my sons would tell me - chill out. Life is way to short.