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DrTang
24-Sep-2011, 08:45
or into it


picked up a decenet 2x3 speed graphic REALLY CHEAP the other day..back shutter works fine

I was thinking.. why couldn't I take off the back of the camera, cut most of the front away, afix a lensboard mount to whats left of the camera just in front of the curtain and mount the whole contraption on a lensboard as a kind of crude-o shutter for barrel lenses ?


I have 4 or 5 lenses w/o shutters that this might work on - none of them wide angle


I suppose I'd have to take into consideration the face that some lenses stick out behind the flange a bit


and I'd be wrecking a perfectly good 2x3 speed...but who shoots that anymore?


brilliant idea? or dumb as rocks?

BrianShaw
24-Sep-2011, 08:49
Do as you please, its your camera.

But if it were me, I'd be making new lens boards and looking for roll film backs to use it as a MF camera.

Greg Lockrey
24-Sep-2011, 09:01
Do as you please, its your camera.

But if it were me, I'd be making new lens boards and looking for roll film backs to use it as a MF camera.

Me too....

DrTang
24-Sep-2011, 09:04
Do as you please, its your camera.

But if it were me, I'd be making new lens boards and looking for roll film backs to use it as a MF camera.


it's a spring back model

Greg Lockrey
24-Sep-2011, 09:10
it's a spring back model

I have 2 1/4x3 1/4 film holders!:)

BrianShaw
24-Sep-2011, 09:16
it's a spring back model

Well, sir... that's the modification I'd be working on!

GPS
24-Sep-2011, 09:38
Before you wreck the poor piece - did you think about the vibrations of such a monster shutter on the front standard..?

Fotoguy20d
24-Sep-2011, 09:41
Why waste a nice 2x3 on such a thing? I have a 3x4 currently undergoing just such an exercise. I hope it works. Dan

Mark Woods
24-Sep-2011, 09:45
I really like my dad's 2 1/4 x 2 3/4 Speed Graphic. I have a roll film back on it, and that's the actual size of the negs. Kind of bizarre, but I love the images I make with it.

Dan Fromm
24-Sep-2011, 10:59
DrTang, as has been pointed out its your camera and you're free to do whatever you want with it.

As has not been pointed out, the 2x3 Adapta-A-Roll 620 roll holder slips into a 2x3 spring back like a cut film holder. The AAR 620 will feed from a 120 spool, must take up on a 620 spool. I use a couple of them, respool exposed film back on the feed spool before sending it to the lab. That's what changing bags are for. There are no 2x3 AARs on eBay now but they're not rare.

Your idea of using a mutilated Speed Graphic as as behind-the-lens shutter isn't new, although most of the proponents have wanted to put the SG immediately in front of the lens. Its easier to make the lens' axis perpendicular to the film plane that way.

One point you should consider -- its been brought up in discussions of using an SG as a shutter -- is that a slit shutter like the SG's won't give the expected shutter speeds when mounted far in front of the focal plane.

People still use 2x3 SGs. Also 2x3 Crown Graphics and Century Graphics. Even people who post here. They're useful.

Good luck, have fun,

Dan

DrTang
24-Sep-2011, 15:55
I really like my dad's 2 1/4 x 2 3/4 Speed Graphic. I have a roll film back on it, and that's the actual size of the negs. Kind of bizarre, but I love the images I make with it.

Had a veriwide once upon a time

6x9 is a sweet format size

DrTang
24-Sep-2011, 16:00
Why waste a nice 2x3 on such a thing? I have a 3x4 currently undergoing just such an exercise. I hope it works. Dan


I also considered 'saving' the 2x3 and looking for a 3x4... but..

I know I won't ever shoot the 2x3, they aren't really worth much and I own it now


Vibration is my only concern

it has, however been curtain synched...so with some fancy cutting and rewiring..I could use it for strobe use and then vibration or shutter speed variation would not matter much

Hmmmm..the more people are against it..the more I want to try it

Greg Lockrey
24-Sep-2011, 16:23
Hmmmm..the more people are against it..the more I want to try it

What a wonderful idea..... maybe you could market it! :rolleyes:

metalsmith
24-Sep-2011, 16:28
NO NO DON'T DO IT!!! (Did that help?)

Greg Lockrey
24-Sep-2011, 16:30
NO NO DON'T DO IT!!! (Did that help?)

That will just encourage him.....

Greg Blank
24-Sep-2011, 16:37
The back shutter, tends to be less accurate. As others point out a lot more vibration occurs so it is less desirable for long time exposures typical of scenic work. More vibration, than the lens shutter. The rear curtain was used mostly when flash was hooked to the cameras and the photographer needed a rapid technique like newpaper reporting. That's why the rear curtain has a bipole connection for the flash as well as true Grapflex lenses having the bipole on them.

Dan Fromm
24-Sep-2011, 17:16
About a 2x3 Speed Graphic's focal plane shutter.

My 2x3 Speed is a Pacemaker and I use it with lenses in barrel. Its shutter makes a tremendous bang, but does so when it stops and by then the exposure is finished. I shoot it on a tripod, don't have problems with vibration. It is quite accurate.

jp
24-Sep-2011, 19:37
I did one of these last week with a 4x5 speed. Its for big lenses and goes between 2 9" lens boards. It can be installed either way on the camera for lenses that are flush or recessed on the back. I also made a coupler/ gender changer (in computer lingo) to mount the lens's lensboard to the shutter's lensboard. I will use it on my fixed front standard cameras like the rembrandt or century studio.

The speed graphic is one of the newer ones with just a tension lever and winder so I get 1/30-1/1000 sec, but an older speed with the tension winder could go 1/10-1/1000 sec range.

If you are don't need the high speeds (such as for shooting lenses wide open on fast film in daylight), and are happy with 2" opening, packards are simpler, and an ND filter can get a little extra flexibility.

I'm at the russ young / tillman crane soft focus workshop right now, and I will post some photos of it in a couple days when I'm home. It's all crude basic woodworking skills.

I've been shooting 4x5 mostly today with another speed graphic, (shooting Reinhold's Wollaston 190mm), along side and with bigger cameras with kodak,verito,veritar,fuji,etc.. soft focus glass. P&S semiachromatic and spencer-portland tomorrow.

cyrus
24-Sep-2011, 20:06
Nooo! Don't hurt old cameras!

jp
25-Sep-2011, 03:55
I had bought a nice used 30's speed graphic for the project, but I liked it so much I wouldn't chop it.

I didn't have to hurt a camera. I bought a parts-only speed graphic from someone on here for I think $75, after they'd taken the newer and more desirable front standard and graflok back probably for another speed graphic.

With the fewer films choices for that size, the OP's original camera would likely never see use again anyways.

GPS
25-Sep-2011, 05:21
About a 2x3 Speed Graphic's focal plane shutter.

My 2x3 Speed is a Pacemaker and I use it with lenses in barrel. Its shutter makes a tremendous bang, but does so when it stops and by then the exposure is finished. I shoot it on a tripod, don't have problems with vibration. It is quite accurate.

But that is vibration-wise a different animal than having the castrated shutter hanging on the lens...

Dan Fromm
25-Sep-2011, 06:41
But that is vibration-wise a different animal than having the castrated shutter hanging on the lens...Please explain further.

GPS
25-Sep-2011, 07:05
Please explain further.

Simply because a vibrating shutter on a lens standard vibrates the lens more directly than the same shutter attached to the film standard. Vibrating the lens is more detrimental to the image than vibrating the film (and also easier since the two standards have different mechanical properties).

Will Frostmill
25-Sep-2011, 08:11
it has, however been curtain synched...so with some fancy cutting and rewiring..I could use it for strobe use and then vibration or shutter speed variation would not matter much

I believe that the Speed Graphic focal plane shutters were only M synched - that is, they only work with flashbulbs with long burn times relative to the very short X-synch electronic flashes.

Of course, you could work in relatively dim light, stopped down to even fairly wide apertures and use studio strobes with no shutter other than a lens cap. You'd cancel out vibration nicely, and wouldn't have to do any extra work whatsoever.

Let us know how it goes, and please put the parts you hack off the camera on the For Sale board - there is some desire for spare parts hereabouts.

Will

Dan Fromm
25-Sep-2011, 08:16
Simply because a vibrating shutter on a lens standard vibrates the lens more directly than the same shutter attached to the film standard. Vibrating the lens is more detrimental to the image than vibrating the film (and also easier since the two standards have different mechanical properties).True, but the major shaking comes when the shutter stops moving. At that time the film is capped so that shaking has no effect on the image.

True, but the effect's magnitude depends on how the lens and mutilated Speed Graphic are supported. There can be a problem but there doesn't have to be one.

GPS
25-Sep-2011, 08:35
True, but the major shaking comes when the shutter stops moving. At that time the film is capped so that shaking has no effect on the image.

True, but the effect's magnitude depends on how the lens and mutilated Speed Graphic are supported. There can be a problem but there doesn't have to be one.

True, but even the initial shake coming with the shutter release, if not detrimental on the back standard, is more dangerous on the lens standard. Too late to discover the difference after the castration...

True, but wouldn't that be a royal PITA if you discover that on the top of the castration you still need to operate the lens standard's haunch?

Anyway, for me the biggest reason to avoid the operation would be the uncertainty of the exposure speeds with this placed shutter. What about if you find out that the slit travelling in front of the lens at that distance severely limits the choice of the timings? Which I suspect as the exposure is then regulated more than the width of the slit than its speed.
Too little beef for the money...

Will Frostmill
25-Sep-2011, 08:58
Anyway, for me the biggest reason to avoid the operation would be the uncertainty of the exposure speeds with this placed shutter. What about if you find out that the slit travelling in front of the lens at that distance severely limits the choice of the timings? Which I suspect as the exposure is then regulated more than the width of the slit than its speed.

Wouldn't the effective speeds be faster since the slit would take less time to uncover and re-cover the light from the lens? Surely someone has studied this on here already.

Will Frostmill
25-Sep-2011, 09:01
Dr Tang,

The other thing I might suggest is going on the For Sale/Wanted board on this site and offer to trade your whole 2x3 for one that someone has already parted out, and removed the back from, etc. There are some folks here who accumulate lots of stuff who would be glad of a trade. Less work for you!

GPS
25-Sep-2011, 10:03
Wouldn't the effective speeds be faster since the slit would take less time to uncover and re-cover the light from the lens? Surely someone has studied this on here already.

At the very first look, probably. And yes, I think some have already commented the question on this forum. Then there is the question of contrast on the film with this setup as the shutter is still allowing some straight light entering on the film even if it is not image forming anymore (before it shuts up but after passing the lens).

Mark Woods
25-Sep-2011, 11:24
I think that the slit is a constant as long as the slit is smaller that the diameter of the lens. When the slit is larger that the diameter of the lens, the exposure time will be longer too.

Will Frostmill
25-Sep-2011, 11:50
I think that the slit is a constant as long as the slit is smaller that the diameter of the lens. When the slit is larger that the diameter of the lens, the exposure time will be longer too.
Thanks Mark, that makes sense.
I'm picturing that, and I'm seeing a first curtain exposing the lens to light, and then waiting...and waiting...and waiting...for the second curtain to 'catch up' and cover the lens. Depending on where you place the shutter, the key variable is the size of the cross section of the light cone you are chopping with the shutter.

Mark Woods
25-Sep-2011, 12:00
Glad I could help. Keep us posted.

Dan Fromm
25-Sep-2011, 12:00
Will, the Speed Graphic's curtain shutter is a long strip of rubberized fabric with slits. No first and second curtain, as in, say, a Leica, just a strip of fabric. Shutter speed is controlled by slit width -- fixed -- and shutter tension in pre-Pacemaker Speeds, a governor in Pacemaker Speeds.

GPS
25-Sep-2011, 12:02
But, of course, before the slit even reaches the lens rim and after it leaves it the light penetrates the bellows space giving a pre- and post non image forming exposure to the film. This exposure could even be (depending on the rear lens diameter) longer than the useful exposure, even if less intense. It could mess up the things...

DrTang
26-Sep-2011, 12:01
or into it


picked up a decenet 2x3 speed graphic REALLY CHEAP the other day..back shutter works fine

I was thinking.. why couldn't I take off the back of the camera, cut most of the front away, afix a lensboard mount to whats left of the camera just in front of the curtain and mount the whole contraption on a lensboard as a kind of crude-o shutter for barrel lenses ?


I have 4 or 5 lenses w/o shutters that this might work on - none of them wide angle


I suppose I'd have to take into consideration the face that some lenses stick out behind the flange a bit


and I'd be wrecking a perfectly good 2x3 speed...but who shoots that anymore?


brilliant idea? or dumb as rocks?


whelp..talked myself out of this conversion - for the moment

NOW..I'm looking for an Ilex 5...or maybe using one of them graflex sync deals on my big compound..see how that works

I need a relatively reliable shutter for the bigger brass lenses I have or will get - that will synch flash, and cutting up a speed for the back shutter seems like a PitA

Jim Galli
26-Sep-2011, 13:26
whelp..talked myself out of this conversion - for the moment

NOW..I'm looking for an Ilex 5...or maybe using one of them graflex sync deals on my big compound..see how that works

I need a relatively reliable shutter for the bigger brass lenses I have or will get - that will synch flash, and cutting up a speed for the back shutter seems like a PitA

I think it's a grand idea. Get a chain saw and cut it up. There's billions of old baby garphics and about 3 people left on earth who shoot them. This isn't a religious experience. It's just a bunch of old tools.


Cut it up!

:D:D

with apologies to Dan Fromm

Don't bother with an Ilex 5. That 50th when measured is more like a 20th which is what a Packard can do without breaking a sweat.

Steve Hamley
26-Sep-2011, 13:34
Jim's right about not just the Ilex, but all the number 5 shutters. If you get 1/30 out of any of them it's an anomaly. Usually 1/50 is 1/25th or 1/20th. But it is (usually) more repeatable than a Packard.

Cheers, Steve

jp
14-Nov-2011, 21:29
OK, here's the details of what I wrote about on page 2 of this thread. I've had the shutter together for a while, but just recently had a chance to use it and photograph it in action. This is a B&J Rembrandt 8x10 camera with 9" lensboard; same lensboard the century studios use. The lens is a 19" B&L Sigmar.

The focal plane shutter is reverisble for lenses that protrude to the rear. The lensboard coupler between the lens and the shutter is made of T&G pineboards ripped on the table saw. The groove matches the lensboard thickness nicely.

It does work no problems. Film shot with it is wet right now.

http://www.f64.nu/photo/tmp/lff/_DSC7350s.JPG

http://www.f64.nu/photo/tmp/lff/_DSC7351s.JPG

http://www.f64.nu/photo/tmp/lff/_DSC7354s.JPG

http://www.f64.nu/photo/tmp/lff/_DSC7355s.JPG

Dan Fromm
15-Nov-2011, 06:41
I think it's a grand idea. Get a chain saw and cut it up. There's billions of old baby garphics and about 3 people left on earth who shoot them. This isn't a religious experience. It's just a bunch of old tools.


Billions? Not quite. According to the mythical Graflex serial number book, production was:

Miniature Speed Graphic (1938-1946): 46,629

2X3 Pacemaker Speed Graphic ('47 - '49): 15,000
2x3 Pacemaker Crown Graphic ('47 - '49): 10,500
2x3 Pacemaker (Crown + Speed ('50 - '54): 10,700 The book lumps 'em starting in '50

Century Graphic: 33,894 slight undercount

rjmeyer314
16-Nov-2011, 07:42
I did the same thing. I found a 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 speed graphic that had bellows that were shot. I just kept the back part of the camera. I cut it down to the extent possible and glued it to a lensboard for my 11x14 Seneca. I added a little woodwork to the front of the shutter box to make it easy to mount lenses. I use several different lenses with this shutter. The thing you need to be aware of is that the shutter speeds on the Graflex table as a function of slot width and spring tension are now no longer correct.You will need to make a new table, or possibly one for each lens you use.