Enlargers - horizontal vs vertical

[swmcl]

Having no idea I'd like to know what the difference is between a horizontal and a vertical enlarger. Are they used for different things ? Are they suited to different jobs ?

Why did they go horizontal ? Was it just so they could go really big on the paper ?? Are there any gotchas using the horizontal versions (as compared to the vertical ones ...)

TIA,

[Louie Powell]

The vast majority of enlargers are vertical.

The horizontal configuration was primarily used in the graphic arts industry although there were a few used in professional labs. The main advantage of a horizontal enlarger is that the degree of enlargement isn't limited by ceiling height.

I believe that I recall that Ansel had a horizontal enlarger for a while.

[Pawlowski6132]

You'll need a vacuum easel for vertical enlarging. Some enlargers can work in both orientations.

[Daniel Stone]

Most rooms are longer/wider than they are tall, so doing large(mural) prints requires more room. Especially if enlarging from 4x5 or 8x10 negatives(or bigger). This way, W/A enlarging lenses aren't "required", so less chance of distortion on the final print is possible by using a longer lens(and thusly, more room is needed).

Durst and Devere were the "biggies" for photo-related enlarging(non-graphic arts/repro work). They were(and still are, if in good condition) quite expensive, but
when all printing was done via analog means, good labs could easily double their investment in a year from purchase.

They can be found on the 2nd hand market these days, sometimes free(sometimes free too!). A lot went to the dumpster though when labs went belly-up due to the digital influx in the industry, along with changing printing methods(inkjet/lightjet/chromira,etc...) so these "beasts"(cause they'r usually big!!!) went unused, and more space was needed.

-Dan

[Drew Wiley]

I've had both styles. Since I have a 14ft high ceiling in my 8x10 lab room, I built my
last big color enlarger for vertical use, since that conserves floor space. Some
popular enlargers like the 5x7 Durst 138-series were convertible. If you mount a set
of sheave tracks on the floor for focal distance, this enlarger will quickly unlock to a horizontal projection mode, so you can project onto the wall. The stand even carries
a set of grooved steel rollers for track use. If you ever do this, just make sure the bulbs in the specific colorhead are suitable for operating in both positions (halogens are fussy with respect to operating angle). This way if you need to make large prints,
you don't have to resort to wide-angle enlarging lenses, which often produce a considerable amount of illumination falloff or other optical penalties.

[ic-racer]

The floor footprint of a Vertical 8x10 enlarger is much smaller than the room needed for a Horizontal 8x10 enlarger. So, I'd say Vertical is better if you have a high ceiling and are ok with 40" max print size. If you have a low ceiliing or need greater than 40" print size then Horizontal is the way to go.

It used to be the Horizontal enlargers cost more new, but I don't see cost influencing anyone's decision in which style to get. In fact, the Horizontal enlargers may be thrown away more frequently.

[swmcl]

Thanks fellas,

So there are no issues relating to holding paper vertically for the horizontal enlarger then ...

It seems more natural to have the paper flat I must admit. I can see that the horizontal enlarger is going to get you a bigger print though.

Cheers,

[bob carnie]

Steve

You will need a metal wall and magnets to hold the paper, If you are really lucky you could find a mural house with a proper vacuum wall , but I worked in dozens of horizontal darkrooms with metal walls and most of the vacuum systems were shite.
With good magnets working on a horizontal wall is easy and fun.
though I prefer the drop tables and working above the image.


Thanks fellas,

So there are no issues relating to holding paper vertically for the horizontal enlarger then ...

It seems more natural to have the paper flat I must admit. I can see that the horizontal enlarger is going to get you a bigger print though.

Cheers,

[Drew Wiley]

Vaccum easels aren't that hard to make. The tricker part is plane alignment relative to
the enlarger itself, and making sure the vacuum draw isn't excessive. Regarding horizontal enlargers per se, yeah, you can build one using a freebee process camera;
but a late version of a horizontal Durst 8x10 in decent condition is still going to cost
you more than a luxury car. Add the carriers etc and you can easily approach six figures. Those things are still commanding premium prices and aren't particulary common. If you don't need 8x10 and still want top quality I'd suggest looking for a
clean 138 5x7 model and tilting it horizontal when needed. It's fairly easy to build a
horizontal enlarger if you have good cabinet shop skills. You can have the bellows
custom-made or simply cannibalize one from a process camera or big view camera.
To make vacuum easels I prefers to drill a special pattern of small holes which draw
down the paper uniformly. Look at a Oleg-Stoesser or Ternes-Burton site for the
pattern. You also need enough internal struts glued-in so the surface doesn't flex.
Pegboard is an option strictly for Oakies. Or again, you might find a free used process
camera with a wonderful vacuum easel and pump which you can cannibalize.

[bob carnie]

Hey Drew

I have never seen a vacuum easel that works well in the horizontal position on large prints.
i want to hold 4' x8' sheets of fibre paper , If you have good plans that you
think could work, I can figure the alignment issues as I have built a few walls in
my day but never a good vacuum and would appreciate advice. I still want the surface to be metal so I can use magnets for positioning the paper.

Vacuum easels for vertical Enlargers are a piece of cake compared to Horizontal.

Bob

[ic-racer]

a horizontal Durst 8x10 in decent condition is still going to cost
you more than a luxury car. Add the carriers etc and you can easily approach six figures.

Six figures if you include the two 'cent' places. The most expensive Durst Horizontal I could find was brokered by Footprints and they want about $8,000 with Rodenstock-G lenses and a 4x5' vacuum easel. The DeVere Horizontal in the For Sale section is now only $600.

[Drew Wiley]

Real easy Bob. Of course, supplementing with magnets is not a bad idea. I always
made them with moveable masking blades for the borders. The worst problem I ever saw was someone who used pegboard and it had so many random holes that they overcompensated on vac draw. Apparently no bleeder valve. It actually affected the color emulsion in some manner that you could see the hole positions in
the deep shadows. I don't do horiz enlrging any more, and tossed out my own wall
easel, so can't supply a picture. I did quite a few large Cibas that way. I guess I'm a
bit spoiled. I sell hundreds of pricey Euro HEPA vacs every year equipped with variable power. Those things are real nice for balancing vac pressure and cleaning
ambient air at the same time. You probably already know not to use a peristaltic diaphragm vac pump because it jiggles the platen; rotary vane action is mandatory for the sharpest results.

[Drew Wiley]

Ice-racer: I wasn't referring to dusty Fleabay klunkers. While some of us have the
skill and patience to refurbish used gear and fabricate the limited accessories needed for personal use, not every concern has that option. I've seen some of these
machines first hand, some still new in crates, and am aware of at least thirty of them selling in recent years worldwide for the kinds of sums I've mention. The kind of numbers you've stated wouldn't even be enough for a matched set of negative carriers for one or these machines. If you think it's so simple, just try. Yes there are bargains, just like there are plenty of serviceable used cars. But a Ferrari still costs like a Ferrari.

[ic-racer]

Ice-racer: I wasn't referring to dusty Fleabay klunkers. While some of us have the
skill and patience to refurbish used gear and fabricate the limited accessories needed for personal use, not every concern has that option. I've seen some of these
machines first hand, some still new in crates, and am aware of at least thirty of them selling in recent years worldwide for the kinds of sums I've mention. The kind of numbers you've stated wouldn't even be enough for a matched set of negative carriers for one or these machines. If you think it's so simple, just try. Yes there are bargains, just like there are plenty of serviceable used cars. But a Ferrari still costs like a Ferrari.

I would not dispute your personal experience. However, in the context of the LF forum, the number of members and readers that got their Horizontal enlarger for less then six figures including the cent places ($1000.00) would far outnumber the number of members that paid over $1,000,000.

[Drew Wiley]

Agreed. But very very few of those top end Durst enlargers ever went to folks like us in
the first place. The chief demand for what remains of them or their components currently lies with those for whom extreme expenditure is a non-issue. For example,
if certain government agencies decide to stop using these kinds of enlargers in favor of
improving new technology, they're likey just to mothball them into storage rather than
put them up for sale. A few million here and there is chump change to them. I know of
govt agencies including the DEA who will drop a hundred grand on a single lens. Similarly, I know well-heeled former lab operators who do the same, and have millions of dollars worth of analog camera and dkrm gear in storage. I even know of a dealer
holding all kind of specialized Durst equip for several decades in storage, still waiting for
someone to come up with full list price (he'll die of old age first). An analogous situation is all the equip and infrastructure of the true Technicolor film process. It's all
in storage in another country waiting till someone budgets a film specifically for this
process. They have no itention of selling it piecemeal. The last round of Durst 8x10 colorheads never reached even pro labs, and if you could even find the one or two which were no pre-sold so some funded agencies, 75 grand apiece would would be a
bargain. I know how to make them, but if someone hypothetically wanted me to build
one of these, I'd want at least fifty grand in advance just to purchase the electronics
and filters, and at that point, I wouldn't even be making a dime. Now if you wanted me
to build my own concept of a state of the art colorhead ... expect to pay a lot more!
But I'm done building enlargers. Got what I want for my own use.

[ic-racer]

Certainly Durst made some specialized equipment, but for the average guy or gal on the forums here an even light source, square or plumb negative stage, light-tight focusing bellows and some wheels are all that would be needed for most purposes.

[Drew Wiley]

Again, agreed. But I'm not one of those average cases myself. I had to learn to invent
and refurbish equipment because, on the one hand, I've never had the capital to outight purchase the best, and on the other hand, I actually needed to exceed the
technical requirements of most of it. This especially became the case when optimizing
color printing. But I enjoy jerryrigging and shop projects, so no harm except for my
schedule. I think I spent 3 years on my last enlarger and colorhead. Some people like
customizing car, boats, or motorcycles; I enjoy building advanced darkroom gear. But
prior to such projects, I bagged a very nice but Durst 138 with a lot of mismatched
leftovers, then purchased a second used one for the parts. By the time I got done,
I ended up with two very nice good-looking machines, one with a cold light and the
other a customized colorhead which became the working prototype for my next project, the big 8x10 color enlarger. My original investment in the two 138's was only
about a fourth of what these models were selling for in mint condition at that time, so
darkroom bargain aren't necessarily due only to lab closures in the digital age. You had
to hunt a lot further and be a lot more patient back then, however, before such
bargains appeared. It's been a fun ride.

[ic-racer]

But I enjoy jerryrigging and shop projects,

A little off-topic, but have you ever made a UV light source for an enlarger?

[Drew Wiley]

No, although I am familiar with the concept. Many halogen bulbs contain a lot of UV
anyway, so my own colorheads contain very UV-resistant pure silicone or teflon gaskets, hi-temp aircraft silcione sealants (not the hardware store stuff), and hi-temp
truck-engine wiring, etc. Then you need to select an enlarging lens with good UV transmission. There are some specialized ones out there, but EL Nikkors are said to be pretty good for this. Then you have to get special glass types for the carrier. If I wanted a high-output UV head, I'd probably make it water-cooled by having a completely welded-shut double-wall stainless cage with an internal water jacket. You'd want a simple compensating timer rather than some fancy feedback circuitry, that is, unless you want to risk every solid state piece of equip in the lab gettting fried (I've seen that happen!). So in one sense, I have drawn up prototype designs for these kinds of things in the past, but have never actually built one. The problem with the custom-adapted Durst or Starlite heads for direct UV printing is that they are capable of eating alive the dichroic coatings on the filters and reflectors, which becomes a significant maintenance expense. There were also some huge xenon flash tube precision enlargers made in Italy back in the 60's for punching enlarged color separations onto registered easels. I forget the mfg, but it wasn't Durst. Have a picture and description buried somewhere. These were heinously expensive back in their day, but since they have no typical modern application, would probably sell for a penny on the dollar. You'd need industrial wiring in your lab. But I've never seen one of these critters actually posted for sale. Relatively rare.

[neil poulsen]

A little off-topic, but have you ever made a UV light source for an enlarger?

I know someone who had one of these. He could enlarge on Azo paper with it.

[Drew Wiley]

Enlarging on Azo is no big deal. With LF you just need a reasonably high wattage halogen odinary colorhead and fast lens. Fresson on the other hand (carbon arc).

[swmcl]

In the other thread running alongside this one at present I don't see too many people owning horizontal enlargers. I think the day to day operation of the horizontal devices is perhaps difficult or tedious ? How does the dodging and burning happen in a vertical plane ? And what about masking ?

Having never owned an enlarger I'm trying to imagine what functions become more problematic in a vertical plane ...

Hmmm.

[Mark Sampson]

Steve, I think that the real reason most people don't use horizontal enlargers is that they are all large, expensive, professional devices that take up a great deal of space- and as such probably less than 5% of all the enlargers ever made are horizontals. Few independent photographers or amateurs need to make the huge prints they are good for, or if they do, contract them out to a professional lab. And few of us have the space to keep a horizontal enlarger. I've used them- they are no more difficult to use than a vertical machine- but they are truly specialist devices.

[Dave Langendonk]

...The kind of numbers you've stated wouldn't even be enough for a matched set of negative carriers for one or these machines. If you think it's so simple, just try. Yes there are bargains, just like there are plenty of serviceable used cars...

The bargains are out there Drew but it does help to get lucky. I purchased a near new condition Durst 2501 horizontal with a complete set of spare electronics, 3 negative carriers, 5+ sets of Durst glass for the carriers, masks, 3-4 Schneider/Rodenstock lenses, 4 spare 2000W bulbs, spare reflector, etc, etc. All for the extravagant sum of $500 from a pro lab that was closing down.

I have also purchased and sold a Durst vertical 184 with mint 1840 colorhead plus a very good condition Kreonite 32" roller transport RA-4 machine for $600 from a state lab that was closing down its darkroom.

You have to look a bit, be patient, and jump when they come up.

[ic-racer]

How does the dodging and burning happen in a vertical plane ?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQHooEh7UdA

[swmcl]

Thanks ic-racer and Mark.

I'm getting the picture. I see the huge 8x10 vertical enlarger on the bay and I can't imagine something more bulky.

Thanks again.

[Drew Wiley]

Oh I'm not ignorant about luck, Dave. You'd be amazed at what I've been offered for
downright free. But one still has to have transport, storage facilities, operating space and sometimes the industrial wiring to accommodate such things. My lab has sufficient
220 single phase for my personally designed equip; but I'm not about to spend thousands on a major elec upgrade to make good on another free toy. In fact, one
of those goodies is underfoot now and stored in my woodorking area, so I have to put up a temp storage shed. Unfortunately, there are no lease bargains on either industrial
or gallery space in this part of the world, recession of not, that is, unless one moves
into an undesirable neighborhood. A few folks I know have acquired that kind of space.
One of them had all his equip robbed at gunpoint two weeks ago; another one actually
sleeps with a loaded shotgun.

[ic-racer]

; but I'm not about to spend thousands on a major elec upgrade to make good on another free toy.

One nice thing about the Vertical Durst is that it runs off 20A 220. So, only a few dollars for a breaker, wire and socket from Home Depot and you can be up and running.
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=10224&d=1203221542

[Oren Grad]

FWIW, Christopher Burkett has some snapshots on his website showing him in the darkroom with his big horizontal Durst and Apo-EL-Nikkor. There's no direct link, but they're accessible from the "Information" page, at the "Photos/In the Darkroom" link.

[Dave Langendonk]

One nice thing about the Vertical Durst is that it runs off 20A 220. So, only a few dollars for a breaker, wire and socket from Home Depot and you can be up and running.
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=10224&d=1203221542

The horizontal Durst does as well. No big deal to wire it.

[Drew Wiley]

I wasn't referring to the enlarger per se, but to big industrial processing machinery
which would require more wattage per machine than my whole present lab, though
that could be mollified somewhat by removing the dryer modules. I've already had
a Durst LF color mural enlarger. It would certainly work with a 20A 220 circuit, but
was a horrible energy hog anyway, and maint on coatings and reflectors a routine
significant cost. That's why I sold it and built my own, which is cooled far more
efficiently and costs only about 5% as the Durst colorhead in monthly utility bills.
Due to the cooler operation, I'd don't anticipate changing filters in my remaining
lifetime, and I get much better color than the Durst to boot, at least any of the
Durst heads which actually made it into public hands. Burkett's need for a whole
set of interchangeable pin-registered neg carriers is do to his personal masking
style, which obviously works quite well for him; but I've devised ways to simplify
most of these steps, and only need repeat register when doing dye transfer matrice
enlargements. With Ciba or advanced C-printing, the finals are registered together only once, and do not need to be disturbed once in the carrier.

[ic-racer]

but to big industrial processing machinery
which would require more wattage per machine than my whole present lab,

Way off topic, but there is a six foot by six foot Cibachrome (Vic Muniz) in the lobby where I work, from 2004. Any idea how or where that might have been processed?

[Dave Langendonk]

I wasn't referring to the enlarger per se, but to big industrial processing machinery
which would require more wattage per machine than my whole present lab, though
that could be mollified somewhat by removing the dryer modules...

There's some truth to that one Drew. My 32" Kreonite requires a 30A 220V circuit largely due to the dryer module. It does do a nice job of warming up the darkroom in the winter. :)

It's no more difficult to wire than a smaller circuit and I use the machine infrequently when I want to do 30"x40" RA-4 so the utility cost is not a concern. Most of the time I just use the Jobo processor and drums.

I do this in basement darkrooms however, not in industrial space. I wouldn't want to discourage people from using these machines especially since they can be had for next to nothing. It takes some work for sure to set them up but for me, going horizontal for enlarging 8x10 negatives was the only way to go due to ceiling height. I couldn't do 30x40 from an 8x10 using a 300/360mm lens in the vertical orientation.

[Drew Wiley]

Add legal wiring for these things to comply with local codes, sane ventilation, proper cooling for the enlarger so that the bypass filters stay within correct tolerances, etc,
My gosh, I sell entire machine and cabinet shops and once ran an electrical store. I call in the industrial wiring crew from our Co and deal with a real electrical supplier who sells safe wire and decent breakers and can sign off legally. So how is a 6 ft Ciba get processed - simple, with a 6 ft wide p3 processor. I know someone who's got one. Want to put that in your basement? He paid 75 to a hundred grand a year to the city just for the haz permit for that thing, then needed another 6 hundred grand just to repair the plumbing before the bldg could be sold. But what it did to his lungs was way more costly to remediate. And just the utility hookup to that much electricity will cost eighty grand. Did a big shop like that recently and the cost of the
internal wire alone was another two hundred grand, but that can double if copper as
a commodity takes a swing. That's the kind of thing I mean by free "industrial" lab equip! Think I'll stick to 30 by 40's and enjoy life.

[bob carnie]

I am setting up my Durst Enlarger for horizontal projection, I want to specialize in 40 x50 size silver gelatin prints while I can still get the paper.
My background included 5 years of mural production in a very successful lab in Toronto.

Currently I have a 11x14 Deveere set up to do 30 x40 vertical enlargements , but that is basically my largest size, therefore this winter I am building a new set up with my monster trays to work the big prints with the horizontal setup.

Dodging and Burning with precision is way way easier on a Vertical setup , You can get your self over the drop table and making 30x40 dodge and burns is as easy as doing a 16 x20 print.
There are tricks to horizontal printing that I learned but IMO much harder to make the same print that a smaller vertical print can offer. The problem is you have to stand to the side and move your cards in and out as well as your hands which takes a different set of movements.

Putting the paper on the wall , getting the enlarger easel aligned, processing the paper , pressing the paper, thats all the easy part.
Having the enlarger on a laser aligned track to the metallic wall is problematic but if the magnet wall has adjustable level screws off the main wall getting everything in place is not bad. painting to black the open easel areas and side walls is mandatory and masking out your negatives is critical... Flare is a big problem and therefore a jury rig situation is OK , to get sort of decent looking prints .
But if your goal is to get beyond just putting an image on big paper , but rather make your murals look every bit as good as your smaller prints , then a dedicated room is imperative and yes expensive, when your start adding up the stuff.


I keep hearing Drew talk about equipment here, and I agree with him, its one thing to be able to put tone on paper, its another thing to get great prints on paper.
To do that the equipment needs to be first rate and good glass , and proper thought on how to set up the room,,,,, I have seen hundreds of darkrooms through visits to other citys and labs where I would not touch there equipment with a 10 ft pole, as it is shite and not properly maintained, and Drews point is well taken , by me at least.

hope I don't sound like a large format darkroom snob here.