PMK Pryo... just how poisonous?

[jtrupiano]

Who uses gloves and who doesn't when processing film? And if one does not, how might that have an effect on ones future children?

I've just started using PMK Pryo Developer and I love the results. Higher contrast, a nice yellow stain. My issue is, I like to develop my sheet film by hand in trays. (Mostly because it's cheaper than buying a Jobo, but it's also much easier and in my option, much more reliable.) When I used Ilford I had no problem having my fingers in the developer but now the Pryo bottles have huge warnings saying "Poisonous. Can be absorbed through the skin." I realize all chemicals can be dangerous, but the fact that Pryo has more warnings than I've seen on other developers, it caused some concern. So I've been using gloves but with the gloves on I feel clumsy. What is everyones thoughts?

[Richard Wasserman]

Wear Nitrile gloves and don't drink it, you'll be fine.

[Daniel Stone]

Wear Nitrile gloves and don't drink it, you'll be fine.

+1

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

Dried chemicals are also an issue, so wash your sink down when done processing, and clean up spills.

[domaz]

I think the biggest issue is what happens if you inhale it in powder form. Then it can be really nasty but if you are buying it in liquid form and using gloves (and maybe eye protection) it's fine.

[jtrupiano]

Thanks Richard. *Puts down glass of Pryo*

See I was worried about the Nitrile that the edges of the film or the ID notches might rip through and I would be right back no protection at all. I'm most likely making a bigger deal out of it than it should be. I've had my hands in chemicals for years, it's just this one really stuck out.

[cyrus]

Nitrile gloves are surprisingly tough and certainly won't rip due to the film ridges, not even if you tried hard.
The problem with dipping hands into chemicals is that it takes time for a body to develop sensitivity. It builds up.

[Drew Wiley]

Anyone who fails to use gloves is just plain ... well, really really dumb ... especially in this day and age when a large box of disposable nitrile gloves only costs about eight bucks. Some very serious side effects have been attributed to pyro abuse, including
a high risk for Parkinson's disease. Don't imagine it would be very good for the liver either. I use PMK all the time with textured, nonpowdered nitrile surgical gloves. No
problem at all, even with tray development.

[Scott Davis]

Who uses gloves and who doesn't when processing film? And if one does not, how might that have an effect on ones future children?

I've just started using PMK Pryo Developer and I love the results. Higher contrast, a nice yellow stain. My issue is, I like to develop my sheet film by hand in trays. (Mostly because it's cheaper than buying a Jobo, but it's also much easier and in my option, much more reliable.) When I used Ilford I had no problem having my fingers in the developer but now the Pryo bottles have huge warnings saying "Poisonous. Can be absorbed through the skin." I realize all chemicals can be dangerous, but the fact that Pryo has more warnings than I've seen on other developers, it caused some concern. So I've been using gloves but with the gloves on I feel clumsy. What is everyones thoughts?

I'll take issue with the "less reliable" comment regarding a Jobo. The entire point of having a Jobo and spending the money for it is to make the process as repeatable and reliable as possible. I like the fact that it completely minimizes my exposure to chemistry - I don't need to wear gloves when processing with pyro because I don't touch the soup.

One of the reasons I stopped tray processing was having to have my hands, in gloves, immersed in chemistry for a half an hour at a shot. Even though I never had a glove leak on me, that feeling of getting poked by the sharp edge of the film always had me paranoid. I know other folks here can tray process a dozen sheets of film at a time until the cows come home but I was always scratching my film when tray processing. The Jobo solved that, as well as guaranteeing consistent chemistry temperature throughout the processing cycle.

[Greg Blank]

& I will back you up. I doubt I would have used Pyro for as long as I have if I had not used it with Expert drums all these years. I have mixed my own PMK from the components for years. Use a dust mask to OP. Handing chemicals, gloves of some type are an excellent idea. Like others have said use common sense and you should be fine.



I'll take issue with the "less reliable" comment regarding a Jobo. The entire point of having a Jobo and spending the money for it is to make the process as repeatable and reliable as possible. I like the fact that it completely minimizes my exposure to chemistry - I don't need to wear gloves when processing with pyro because I don't touch the soup.

One of the reasons I stopped tray processing was having to have my hands, in gloves, immersed in chemistry for a half an hour at a shot. Even though I never had a glove leak on me, that feeling of getting poked by the sharp edge of the film always had me paranoid. I know other folks here can tray process a dozen sheets of film at a time until the cows come home but I was always scratching my film when tray processing. The Jobo solved that, as well as guaranteeing consistent chemistry temperature throughout the processing cycle.

[MIke Sherck]

I use gloves in trays and when mixing from powder, wear a paper mask, mix it outdoors, and take care to stand upwind.

Mike

[Drew Wiley]

Gloves vary in quality. But I sometimes develop in PMK several times a week, more
often than not sheet film in trays, have been doing this for about thirty years, and
have never yet had a glove punctured by a film corner. If in doubt, test your brand
of glove in plain water with voided film first. Nitrile gloves tend to be tougher than
vinyl, yet are only barely more expensive.

[Arp]

Nitrile gloves doubled up work fine and provide extra protection against tears.

[Shen45]

As someone rightly pointed out Hydroquinone is very close to the same family [a benzene] and is used extensively in hair products and skin creams.

Wikipedea quote - "One can find its uses in hair dying, dying of suturing materials and for oxygen absorption in gas analysis. It also has antiseptic properties. Pyrogallol was also used as a developing agent in black-and-white developers, but its use is largely historical except for special purpose applications. (Hydroquinone is more commonly used today,"

Common sense should prevail.

Don't drink it and don't snort the powder. From my understanding the two most dangerous phases are the mixing of the powder to make the PMK and the gases thet are given of in the process of making the PMK,

I mix mine outside and yes I wear a mask and eye protection.

[Doremus Scudder]

The big risk with toxins like pyro is cumulative exposure. If you get it on your hands once accidentally and rinse right away, there is very little risk. If you have your hands in ABC pyro every day for years on end (like Edward Weston) then you may have a rather high risk of having health issues.

So, even if you do puncture a glove, there is still very little, if any, real risk as long as you wash your hands after the session and discard the gloves.

BTW, I have punctured a glove or two in the past, mostly when unloading filmholders (getting the glove accidentally caught in the flap when closing, etc.). The real downside to this is chemical carry-over. I ruined a few negatives because fixer had got into one finger of a glove. It was summer, my hands were sweaty inside the gloves and I didn't notice it.... ugly spots on the edges of the next batch! I was using pyro too, but that would not be my concern with a punctured glove.

Do use gloves when tray developing to minimize your exposure. If you get a drop of pyro on your skin when mixing, or puncture a glove, rinse thoroughly right away. Your risk will be minimal.

If you mix from powder, do wear a mask and use adequate ventilation. I find that buying the pre-measured kits (Formulary, et al.) easiest, though a bit more expensive. The chemicals come in plastic bags; you can clip a corner and submerge the opening of the bag just below the surface of the water when adding the chemical to the solution. This prevents dust. Any clumps that form can easily be added by simply filling the bag with water and adding that to the mix as well. Clean bag, no dust, no residue.

Best,

Doremus Scudder

[Steve Smith]

Thanks Richard. *Puts down glass of Pryo*

I once watched a friend using some potassium permanganate solution as a wood stain. He was applying it by brush from a drinking glass. At the same time he had some red wine in a similar glass. The two looked identical. It was a recipe for disaster which thankfully didn't happen.


Steve.

[Sevo]

The big risk with toxins like pyro is cumulative exposure.

Pyrogallol is no toxin (read up the definition if you want to know why). With a LD50 around 750mg/kg it is not even particularly toxic (being in around the same order of magnitude as salt), and it has no cumulative properties. Indeed, developers in general don't - as reducing agents they are vulnerable to oxygen, which makes it rather hard to be cumulative in an aerobic environment like the human body.

Pyro can however be rather viciously allergenic, a property shared with many other developing agents - that might be mistaken for a cumulation issue (which it is not). But given that it stains like mad, it should in practice be a much lower risk substance than other, less poisonous and allergenic developing agents, as even minor pyro spills and contaminations are glaringly visible.

[Drew Wiley]

I always get a bit annoyed by the macho "it won't hurt you" artiste mentality. Sounds a bit like teenagers who start smoking just to be cool and prove they are tough. Leave
medical talk to people who really know what they are doing and not some half-baked
ten-second research on the internet. I've seen a helluva lot of people seriously poisioned over the years, including research chemists who got too comfortable with
their materials. Many of the saddest cases are people my age who shrugged their shoulders at the idea of working lead or cadmium oil paints with their fingers, and now
have their livers and whole nervous systems failing. Same goes with woodworkers who
got macho with lacquers - always turned their nose up at the idea of working safely,
and now some of them shake so uncontrollably they can't even hold a pencil. Better
to be smart and safe. Gloves cost very little, and if you're worried about puncture,
simply go to a specialty dealer like Lab Safety Supply, where you can find all kinds of
grades and sizes and nitrile gloves.