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Ari
20-Sep-2011, 18:48
I just got my TK today, and it's quite amazing.

One thing I have to adjust to is how short the bag bellows are; I can squeeze a 121 into use with them, but my next longest lens is 210.

With that in mind, I was wondering if anyone has tried these bellows:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Custom-Made-Universal-Bellows-4x5-Camera-Bag-Bellow-/280696357781?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415ace8395#ht_3709wt_1165

Do you think these would work as a good all-around bellows on a TK?
I realize that the camera might not fold as compactly with these Chinese bellows, but the seller of my camera advised me anyway not to store the camera with the bellows on, if I could help it.

Thanks for any thoughts on this.

Noah A
21-Sep-2011, 05:42
Check out this thread for more info:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=76149

To summarize, I had the same question. My most-used lenses are a 115 and a 210, and I really wanted one bellows to work for both (and give lots of movement with the 115). The Linhof bag bellows works very well up to 150mm, but it won't work with a 210 even at infinity.

I really wanted a double-pleated bag bellows like the Sinar or the one that came with the rare Panfield camera. Alternatively, something like the Toyo VX125 or the Arca-Swiss field universal bellows would be great, one with large pleats and a soft material for flexibility.

But I found none of those things. I thought about making a double-pleated bag bellows but I never got around to it.

Custom Bellows said they could make me a bag bellows with a few extra normal pleats grafted on. Because it's a true bag bellows with something extra, it would probably work well for a large range of lenses. I don't remember the cost they quoted me, but it was more than the Chinese one and much less than a Linhof OEM bellows.

I ended up just sticking with the OEM bellows. The normal bellows works fine, and the bag bellows is great, it never gets in the way or needs to be fiddled with and is very flexible.

At the time I hadn't seen the Chinese Universal bellows. For the price it may be worth a try, even if it's not perfect you can always save them as a backup. Let us know how it works out.

As a side note, there's nothing wrong with storing a bellows on the camera. If you follow the directions and fold it properly it works fine. I do store my camera without a bellows, but only because I never know which bellows I'll need for my next shot, so I'd rather start with a clean slate.

Ari
21-Sep-2011, 09:36
Noah, I read and followed that thread as well; at the time I was thinking of getting something for my Toyo G, but that has since been sold, and I have a TK to contend with.
I tried using the regular bellows; they compress very well, but they're stiff as hell, so not much in the way of movements, and I had the SA 121 on.
I've ordered bellows from this maker before; the 810 bellows he made for my Toyo 810G were great, and he's a pretty nice guy to deal with.
I'll shoot him an email and see what he can do in terms of customizing his universal bellows, and I will keep you posted.

Noah A
21-Sep-2011, 10:27
That has been my experience as well--the standard bellows won't allow all that much movement with the medium/wide lenses. It compresses fine and will focus a very short lens, but it won't take all that much movement with lenses shorter than 150mm

I think a shorter, single-taper bellows might work, and the universal bellows you linked to could be even better.

Thanks for the general feedback on that seller. I was thinking of ordering a backup bellows for my MT2000. I'd love to hear/see what you come up with for the TK.

Ari
21-Sep-2011, 10:38
Yes, good seller; over the summer I ordered about $350 worth of stuff from him, and only had one item to return, a loupe for $65.
He took it back no questions asked, and the bellows he made for my 810 were excellent.
There's a bit of a language barrier, but he said he'll customize the bellows, i.e. make the bag longer and pleats shorter if needed.
The bellows is made from nylon, and available in red and black.

Btw, Noah, how much did your TK bellows frames cost to buy?

Noah A
21-Sep-2011, 10:45
I never purchased the frames. Actually, to be more accurate, I asked Martin (at Marflex) to send them to me and he never did. But I decided against making the bellows, so I never followed up.

I think they were supposed to be around $100.

Ari
21-Sep-2011, 10:59
Would you go with those bellows as is?
I'm thinking of asking for one more inch of bag section.

Noah A
21-Sep-2011, 14:08
Good question, but I don't know the answer. I've never worked with that sort of bellows--it's not really a bag on the front, more like a section of large, less-structured pleats. Too many of those and the thing might sag, especially with longer lenses. Not enough and you may not get the flexibility you need for your wide lenses. (And I'm still not sure anything short of a genuine bag bellows will let you take full advantage of your 72XL.)

You might ask some Chamonix users, this looks like their 'universal' bellows.

An extra inch probably wouldn't hurt anything, but I'd hate to steer you wrong since I really have no idea.

Ari
21-Sep-2011, 18:37
And I'm still not sure anything short of a genuine bag bellows will let you take full advantage of your 72XL.

Damn, I hate it when people get all sensible on me :)
Well, you've got me re-thinking this because I now suspect the current bag bellows are not roomy enough for the 72XL's movements. When I get the lens, I'll know.
I really like the Arca-Swiss bellows with the very wide pleats, they look like the perfect solution, but they're $500 a pop.

This might also be a solution, but it isn't pretty:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Linhof-Wide-Angle-Bag-Bellows-4x5-/170699715898?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item27be7ef53a#ht_500wt_1204
Graft part of a regular bellows to the back of a bag bellows; see photo #2.

Noah A
22-Sep-2011, 04:51
Yeah, the Arca field universal bellows is nice. What kept me from selling the linhofs and switching was that the Arca F field doesn't offer much direct rise.

The auction you linked to shows, more or less, what Custom Bellows suggested that they could make for me for the TK45. I suppose it is ugly, but it probably works.

I have a feeling that the Chinese bellows will be a compromise, it'll get you most of what you want with most of your lenses, so you only have to switch to the bag for occasional tough shots. This may be all you can hope for really.

Keep in mind that even though lenses like your 72XL can handle extreme movements, you may not actually want to use movements that severe. Things can start to look a bit funky or exaggerated. So a universal bellows that can work for 75-85 percent of your images is a good compromise that can keep you from switching bellows every other shot.

Bob Salomon
22-Sep-2011, 07:40
Maybe you might want to talk face to face to the Linhof people. Two of them will be at thePhotoPlus show in our booth in the Javits Center at the end of next month.

Ari
22-Sep-2011, 08:15
Yeah, the Arca field universal bellows is nice. What kept me from selling the linhofs and switching was that the Arca F field doesn't offer much direct rise.

The auction you linked to shows, more or less, what Custom Bellows suggested that they could make for me for the TK45. I suppose it is ugly, but it probably works.

I have a feeling that the Chinese bellows will be a compromise, it'll get you most of what you want with most of your lenses, so you only have to switch to the bag for occasional tough shots. This may be all you can hope for really.

Keep in mind that even though lenses like your 72XL can handle extreme movements, you may not actually want to use movements that severe. Things can start to look a bit funky or exaggerated. So a universal bellows that can work for 75-85 percent of your images is a good compromise that can keep you from switching bellows every other shot.

Noah, you are probably right.
The UB could be used for 72-250 lenses, and the bag for wacky tricks with the 72.
I see that as a good compromise, and one where the UB are on the camera for 98% of the shots.
I think I'll order me some Chinese universal bellows.
I don't mind being proven wrong for $100, and if it works well enough, it's win/win.


Maybe you might want to talk face to face to the Linhof people. Two of them will be at thePhotoPlus show in our booth in the Javits Center at the end of next month.

Bob, thanks, I'll look up the dates and see if I can make it.
I'd love to tell them how they missed the boat on universal bellows for the TK; they'll just counter with a promise to make such a bellows for $1000 :)

Bob Salomon
22-Sep-2011, 09:27
Ari, a universal bellows is old hat for Linhof. Just look at the old Kardan Standard 45. It's bellows took 65 to whatever could be used on an 18" bellows with full movements over the entire range. Or the Master Technika 2000 and 3000. they also do that. The biggest sales resistance to the Kardan Standard at the time was the bellows. Users wanted the bag bellows more then a universal bellows.
Before the current Kardan bag bellows they made a bag with a pleated section. Problem was too many users put it on backwards (bag went against the camera) and users requested a bag only instead.
You simply can't satisfy everyone.

Ari
22-Sep-2011, 09:33
You simply can't satisfy everyone.

Of course you're right, Bob, just that at the moment there are no options for TK Uni bellows; I have to solicit business from a third party.
If the Kardan Standard's bellows were readily available and would fit the TK, I'd be all over them.

mortensen
22-Sep-2011, 09:39
I'm in the exact same boat, guys. The standard bellows I got with my TK45S is filled with pinholes, so I plan on getting a shorter 'universal' bellows and reuse the frames. I got a price from custom bellows:
135 UK pounds ex VAT and shipping but incl. refitting the new bellows to the frames.
It might sound a tad expensive (especially with 6-8 weeks delivery!!!), but they should be ones to call for this kind of job. I haven't discussed design details with them yet. I had a Chamonix and its universal bellows was quite nice and allowed me to get 50mm front rise with my 90... but then the bellows would introduce vignetting (sometimes a LOT) when shooting portrait format.

The odd design you linked to, Ari, looks good... but how would you fold the camera with such an immensely huge bellows??? And if you can't fold the camera with the bellows attached, we're back to start...

Ari
22-Sep-2011, 10:15
Lars, I think I will try the Chinese Uni bellows; the ones I linked to are impractical for the reason you mentioned.
I'm going to ask for 2-3cm more of baggy area in the front than their normal Uni bellows.
My Wista bellows are half bag, half bellows, but they're pretty compact, not like the one in the linked photo, and I've never had vignetting; then again, I don't use as much front rise on the Wista.

Ah, one bellows to rule them all...

Noah A
22-Sep-2011, 12:43
This is what I really want:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1928-REG/Arca_Swiss_071030_6x9_Front_4x5_Rear_Tapered.html

But I'm not willing to spend the cash and take the huge risk of trying to adapt it to the TK. I thought about it though, and I also thought about dumping the Linhofs for an Arca kit.

But then I thought better of it. I just spent a week in Chicago, a fairly 'vertical' city, and realized I can do my work without as much movement as I thought I needed. I'm sort of going in a different direction, using the Technika for nearly all of my personal work and keeping the TK45 for jobs or times when I need the extra movements.

I think a universal bellows that can work most of the time supplemented by a bag for extreme movements would be a great setup. The Linhof bag bellows is the best I've used, cost notwithstanding. It never seems to get in the way of the light path and I never have to fiddle with it. The standard bellows doesn't impress me at all. I guess it's good on the long end but at 135 and below it's stiff.

I can't wait to hear how the Chinese bellows works. One question is left--are you gonna go for the red one?

mortensen
22-Sep-2011, 12:57
haha, the red one... imo wouldn't fit the lovely german-precision-tech-look the TK embodies.
How did the Chicago show turn out, Noah? I fell instantly in love with that city, when I visited this summer. Oh, and when you get the time, I'm very curious about your arca vs. linhof thoughts and your impression of working with the 8x10 arca.
... sorry for being off topic!

Noah A
22-Sep-2011, 13:20
No, I suppose red probably wouldn't fit in with the look of the TK. I found a beater Tech IV for $400, so I may rip off Frank Petronio and strip it down to the metal...that one may look good with the red!

Lars, I don't want to discourage you, but 8x10 is a whole different beast. Not only is the camera (and the huge tripod, and the huge film holders) not nearly as portable, but depth of field becomes even more of an issue, and film cost is out of this world. Have you ever held a 155mm Grandagon or a 360mm Apo-Sironar-S? They're HUGE.

The Arca 8x10 was beautiful, but the format was just too cumbersome for the way I work. If I had to shoot 8x10 again though, I'd go for either an Arca F-Metric or if that wasn't in the budget, a Toyo GII. I've been meaning to email you so I'll get to it soon...let me know if you have any specific questions.

The Chicago show opening went really well, and I did some shooting while I was there. It is a beautiful city. I just got my film back today so maybe I'll post some pics when I get a chance.

Ari
22-Sep-2011, 20:48
Keeping off-thread:
Lars, if it helps, I got my Toyo 810G off eBay; two months after that, I replaced the bellows and ground glass.
I shoot X-ray film, about $0.30 per sheet.
I also invested long ago in three lenses that I bought expressly to cover all three formats: Fujinon 250 f6.7, Fujinon 210 (older version), and SA 121.
All three lenses are quite compact (Copal 1) compared to those Noah mentioned.
All told, it was in the range of $1400 for a geared 810 monorail with full movements, plus three lenses.
There are cheaper ways to get into 810, but it also doesn't have to cost a fortune.
Btw, the Toyo in its flight case is capital-h Heavy.

Michael_qrt
8-Nov-2011, 16:04
Hi all, I was thinking of getting a universal bellows for my Toyo 45g from the seller listed by the OP. I was just thinking that one other possibility to increase the movement possibilities with wide angles would be to have one or two unstiffened pleats at the rear of the bellows as well as at the front.

In the case of extreme rise, for example, it might allow the stiffened part of the bellows to 'turn' a little, or at least share the movement between the unstructured parts at the front and rear of the bellows. The risk is of course that the bellows might sag more but it also might not be that hard to retrofit your own stiffeners if it turned out to be a problem.

I wonder if anyone has any experience with anything like that, anyway let me know what you think.

Ari
9-Nov-2011, 04:24
Not a bad idea, but if you already own a regular bellows and a bag bellows, my advice would be to stay put and save your money.
I thought of buying the universal bellows, except with my lenses, I'd still have to switch bellows to use the 72XL, so I figured I might as well stay with what I have.
The UB would be advantageous if your most-used lenses are, say, a 115 and 210, like Noah's set-up.

Michael_qrt
9-Nov-2011, 06:31
True enough. Sadly though I don't have a bag bellows and my standard bellows is full of light leaks, so I need something. I may just order a universal bellows and then if I find it restricts movements too much add a bag bellows as well. I won't have lost much in comparison to just replacing the standard bellows.

Perhaps I will ask the seller about my idea and see what he thinks.

Joseph Dickerson
9-Nov-2011, 09:06
Hi All,

I modified a Chamonix universal bellows to fit my Shen Hao with fantastic results. I'm going to order the one referred to by the op for my Sinar.

Let you know how well it works when it arrives.

JD

Michael_qrt
9-Nov-2011, 14:43
So there is a reason why having an unstructured section at the rear of the bellows is a bad idea. At the rear the edge of the bellows is fairly close to the edge of the film image area when in portrait orientation and any sag of the bellows will cut off the image. You can get away with a lot more at the front of the bellows because the light cone from the lens is narrower at that point.

I went ahead and ordered the universal bellows for my Toyo, so along with Joseph I'll also let you know how it goes. I (sadly) don't have a 72xl but I'll be testing with a 75mm f/4.5 grandagon and a 90mm f/8 nikkor.

Joseph Dickerson
9-Nov-2011, 15:00
I have the same wide lens selection as Michael so we'll see. I'll also be trying it with a 65mm Grandagon.

Does anyone know if the seller of the bellows includes the frames to attach the bellows to a camera or does the buyer have to provide and fit them?

I have emailed them but no response yet.

JD

Michael_qrt
9-Nov-2011, 15:25
No frames are included, you have to re-use your current ones. All of the replacement bellows from that and all of the chinese bellows sellers on ebay are without frames. The bag bellows they sell probably do come with frames though, as thay are an accessory rather than a replacement but you'd have to ask to make sure.

Joseph Dickerson
10-Nov-2011, 09:26
I now have one on the way...we'll see!

JD

Joseph Dickerson
11-Nov-2011, 13:05
I now have one on the way...we'll see!

JD

Just checked and they do not come with the frames. Called Bron Imaging (USA) and the frames are $15.40 each.

It looks like the are attached to the bellow with double stick tape. Anyone done this?:rolleyes:

JD

Ari
11-Nov-2011, 13:32
I used Pliobond for my 810 bellows, bought from the same seller.

Joseph Dickerson
29-Nov-2011, 14:41
Bellows arrived yesterday...it's a little thinner than the Sinar Bellows but seems to be a perfect fit for the Sinar frames. Nicely made.

Heading to ACE to get some Pliobond (thanks Ari).

Let you know how it works out. :)

JD

Joseph Dickerson
29-Nov-2011, 16:10
What I've discovered so far...OK movement with a 90mm at infinity, not so much with a 75mm. Still a lot more than the stock bellows, but no where near as much as the Chamonix bellows I modified to fit the Shen Hao.

Mind that this is only the briefest test shooting up the drive way. Still need to do more with it.

Tentative conclusions: An improvement over the stock bellows for scenic/landscape shooting. Especially with the 90mm or longer. For architecture I'll still want to use the bag bellows with the 75 and 65mm lenses.

Quality and fit are quite nice, delivery was quick, installation, at least on the Sinar, was very easy. The Chamonix bellows on the Shen Hao replaced the bag bellows completely and still worked with longer lenses (out to 300mm). This one on the Sinar...not so much. Worth it...probably. At the very least I now have a spare bellows and, as I use the 90mm more than the wider lenses, I think it'll be a good investment. YMMV!

JD

Ari
29-Nov-2011, 16:41
Good to know; thanks, Joseph!

Michael_qrt
11-Dec-2011, 04:24
So I got my bellows a while back but just had the chance to mount them up and try it out. Overall I'm very impressed, the build quality and materials seem very good and they were just the right size for my Toyo 45g frames. I got ones with a maximum extension of 450mm vs 420mm for the standard bellows.

As for movements they are much better than the standard Toyo bellows. With the Nikkor 90/8 on a 12mm recessed panel (Technika type recessed board on a flat adapter for Toyo 45g) I could just hit the edge of the image circle using rise when focussed to ~10m (indoor testing). The bellows were starting to complain a bit at this point but there was no real problem. With the 75mm/4.5 Grandagon on the same lens board arrangement I could also just hit the edge of the image circle even though the bellows are quite compressed to focus the 75mm. I'd say that with a nomal Toyo view recessed lens board (about 38mm recessed) the movements with these lenses would be easy, I bet you could even take advantage of a Schneider 72xl.

The movements aren't as smooth as with a bag bellows, you have to distort the bellows a bit to get the maximum movements but you can get them. For a monorail camera with a large front bellows opening you could ask for a double length unstiffened part of the bellows to make movements even easier as sag shouldn't be an issue in this case.

In summary I could get a bit more extension and much more movements with the universal bellows compared to the standard Toyo ones. I'd highly recommend it.

Brian Ellis
11-Dec-2011, 07:38
Haven't read the entire thread, sorry if this is a duplicate of what others have said. But I'd be very careful about using a 3rd party bellows with a TK. You'll notice that your 20+ inches of bellows are compressed into about an inch or two when the camera is folded. The material has to be very thin and the bellows made to fairly exact specs in order for that to work. If it's too thick or heavy you won't be able to fold the camera. I learned that the hard way when I had a 3rd-party bellows made for my TK.

speedfreak
11-Dec-2011, 10:07
All you've got to do is store the TK with the bag bellows attached. It's a little easier to fold up as you've don't have to be super careful not to pinch a fold. Plus, I would typically leave a 150mm attached to the camera, although turned backwards, and would be ready to shoot in a matter of seconds. If I needed my 210mm, 360mm or found myself with a close up subject I'd pop off the bag bellows, attach the standard bellows and was ready to shoot in a minute. All very easy when it comes down to real life shooting.