The most sensitive spot meter? (For night shots)

[l2oBiN]

I am interesting in a spot light meter capable of metering in the night, under moonlight. Any suggestions?

[GPS]

Google

[Vaughn]

Gossen Luna Pro/SBC

I have used it for such. But actually, a few test shots and you may no longer need a light meter at night.

[timparkin]

I am interesting in a spot light meter capable of metering in the night, under moonlight. Any suggestions?

I've bought the Calculight XP which has a 10 degree spot meter and will meter down to -4EV. The spot meter is a simple lens over the sensor that you aim with a twin ring viewfinder.

[John NYC]

Experience is better than a light meter at night. At f22 with E100G it really becomes at civil twilight a decision between two or four minutes.

[Steve M Hostetter]

or 45 sec. @f8 :)

[BrianShaw]

Gossen Luna Pro/SBC

I have used it for such. But actually, a few test shots and you may no longer need a light meter at night.

X2. The Luna Pro is not a spot meter, but is very good for general coverage metering of dim lighting.

[Tim Povlick]

Not a spot meter either:

http://unihedron.com/projects/darksky/

but the most sensitive hands down.

_ .. --
TiM

[Frank Petronio]

It's kind of silly to try to measure it really, the errors are usually off by several stops... a few rounds of bracketing will give you the experience you need.

[ki6mf]

Read The Nocturnes web site. It basically says take notes, remember what the ambient light is for a given shot, bracket your shots in terms of time of shutter exposure, and shoot in similar light. For black and white there are times when you will be doing very very long exposure times for those hour long exposures on pitch black nights. Most important 2nd piece of equipment is a folding beach chair. Also for Black and White compensating developer is required. For both B&W and Color there be prepared for lots of experimentation. http://www.thenocturnes.com/

[Vaughn]

X2. The Luna Pro is not a spot meter, but is very good for general coverage metering of dim lighting.

Missed the part about the OP wanting a spot meter (there are spot attachments for them, though.) But like I said, and others also, a little experience and no light meter would be needed.

[toyotadesigner]

No spot meter, but a very reliable meter:

http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm

[John NYC]

, and shoot in similar light. http://www.thenocturnes.com/

This is probably THE most important thing to do to get good night shots. For the cityscapes that I do, it is imperative to shoot at civil twilight to get a good balance between lights from windows and ambient light and still have it look like night.

The tables for civil twilight throughout the year are listed on numerous Internet weather sites.

[John NYC]

There is one other good trick for learning how to guess... Bring along a DSLR with a good histogram. Set it on f1.4 and 3200 or 6400 ISO and then find a good exposure by changing the shutter. After that convert to whatever you are going to shoot at on your LF camera and figure in your reciprocity.

But like I said, once you do this a few dozen times, you will realize you are making the same choices all the time if you are shooting in similar times of the evening.

[Sevo]

Missed the part about the OP wanting a spot meter (there are spot attachments for them, though.)

The spot attachment ranges from -4EV@10° to 1EV@1° - many of the dedicated 1° meters achieve the latter or even 0EV as well, so it is not really at an advantage in true spot mode. But one the other hand, no 1° spot meters that I am aware of go down to -4EV at whatever coverage - if you need higher sensitivity, the Profisix/Profispot combination or the Calculight XP can do at least semi-spot in extremely low light.

[Brian K]

As mentioned by others the Calculight XP, is the most sensitive meter overall. I have the Pocket Spot, the Pentax Zone VI model, The gossen spot, they're all about the same, but most often I use sunny 16 or just rely on experience. Using a good digicam can work as well.

[Kirk Gittings]

For twilight shots of buildings I have to disagree with some of the methods presented here. Timing of the shot (not exposure) is relative to the brightness of the building exterior or visible interior spaces and there is no standard for such lighting. It must be metered. Also an overcast sky or a sky with broken clouds will need a different time (usually earlier) than a clear sky. So here is my method

I measure the bright interior lit areas and place them on ZVII or a lit exterior and place the exterior on about ZVII. I then wait for the sky light to drop to about one stop lower meter reading than the meter reading of the lit part of the building that I am basing the exposure on. I shoot 4 transparencies. 2 right where I think the proper exposure is (including reciprocity adjustments) and one 1/2 stop over and one 1/2 stop under. I have one of the "proper exposure" sheets processed and adjust the processing on the rest based on what I see on the first sheet. If it is a super important shot, I may shoot six sheets at 1/2 stop increments. i hope that makes some sense.

I still use a separate meter with Digital so that I don't have to do a zillion test exposures which can heat up the sensor on long exposures and can result in increased noise.

[John NYC]

For twilight shots of buildings I have to disagree with some of the methods presented here.


Here are the results of my method. Please critique?

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6200/6145439437_d3d01defbb_o.jpg

[toyotadesigner]

John,

The tables for civil twilight throughout the year are listed on numerous Internet weather sites.

If you have a Mac there is a nice little widget for you:
http://code.google.com/p/solwidget/

You can select the civil, nautical or astronomical light. Not sure if it's available for an iPhone as well.

Your NYC image: I would have waited a tad longer to render the sky darker. Incredible detail!

[BrianShaw]

No spot meter, but a very reliable meter:

http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm

There is also a night exposure calculator available called the "Black Cat". It is a useful and easy-to-use tool but the FredParker has the same data. The BlackCat, in my opinion, is packaged nicely to fit in the bag and be used in the field. Definitely worth checking out to establish starting points for exposure.

http://www.blackcatphotoproducts.com/guide.html

[John NYC]

John,


If you have a Mac there is a nice little widget for you:
http://code.google.com/p/solwidget/

You can select the civil, nautical or astronomical light. Not sure if it's available for an iPhone as well.

Your NYC image: I would have waited a tad longer to render the sky darker. Incredible detail!

Cool, I will check that out.

Wondering if you are viewing my image on a Mac that is pre-leopard OS?

[Kirk Gittings]

Here are the results of my method. Please critique?

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6200/6145439437_d3d01defbb_o.jpg

I was not referring to cityscapes so much so that image does not really directly relate to my to statement.

That image looks fine as an average of all the lights out there and the sky, but within that image is an example of the problem (I would have waited later too for more drama-but that is my taste. If the final result was a file I would have taken out the green of the fluorescents too). Suppose that bright building on the left was your subject? It is blown out. If that was the subject of a photograph it would have to be shot much earlier. Reducing exposure would just render the sky too dark-so it has to be shot earlier. Any method that does not take into account the actually brightness of a given building is going to run into problems.

I don't base my exposure on the sky. I base exposure on the lights in or on (or both) the building and then wait for the sky light level to dim to my target balance. The constant is the building lights so IME that is what an exposure should be based on.

The other issue is the shooting direction at twilight. If one is shooting towards where the sun set, the sky is considerably brighter than if you are shooting away from it. The difference is about 1/2 hour for that sweet balance. Many times this allows us to do two or even three perfectly balanced twilight shots of the same building in the same night if we move fast, one looking east, one looking north or south and finally then one looking west (this assumes a building with even lighting on the sides we are photographing).

Another issue is clouds. I know from experience that when clouds are present (covering a large part of the sky or overcast) the right balance is going to happen earlier and we need to setup earlier. Again the constant is the building lights we control that by our exposure. The sky light changes-we control that by when we shoot.

I make my living doing these shots. It is my bread and butter. I oftentimes have flown halfway acros the country and only have one night to pull these off so I can't rely on any method that is not rock solid. Sorry Frank, bracketing like a madman will not help you if you are there at the wrong time. I guess you could do a series of brakets around the exposure every ten minutes over say an hour. Sounds like a plan Frank.

The biggest problem we face these days are sensored lights in offices-some are motion and some are thermally triggered. On few buildings is there a central over-ride. This means we have to have someone periodically moving through these spaces to keep the lights on. On one shoot recently in Reno we had something like 64 offices in two adjacent building over three floors with motion sensors. The lights would stay on from 2-3 minutes and there was no over-ride. We figured we needed 4-6 people running around just to keep these on. We couldn't do it. Our client was in Vegas and did not have personel to contribute in Reno. Fortunately it was a secondary twilight and not the important one of the front. Here is the project: DPS (http://www.dpsdesign.org/unr-center-molecular-medicine) (I'm not happy with how tight some of these shots have been cropped but..........). Images number 1 and 6 show the problem side. You can't really see it because of the angles, but that is actually two buildings connected by a catwalk.

[John NYC]

I was not referring to cityscapes so that image does not really directly relate so much to my to statement.

That image looks fine as an average of all the lights out there,

Yes, I thought you might have been referring to more building specific shots with the technique you gave. And although I don't have the years of experience you do, I would have used the zone system in some way, as I do during the day, to cobble together something if I were in that situation. In fact, I have tried using zone system techniques on these broad city scapes, but given that you do have to make all these compromises for wildly differently lit structures across the expanse, the resulting decisions come out just like my experiential guesses these days.



but within that image is an example of the problem (I would have waited later too-but that is my taste). Suppose that bright building on the left was your subject? It is blown out. If that was the subject of a photograph it would have to be shot much earlier. Reducing exposure would render the sky too dark-so it has to be shot earlier. Any method that does not take into account the actually brightness of a given building is going to run into problems.

I did take that building into account in my choice to shoot earlier, that along with really wanting to keep the detail in the clouds and the purple streak in the sky made me go when I did. I knew when shooting it with my guess that that building was not going to be perfect, but I would argue with this scene, there is no perfect. Less exposure and I would have lost all detail with the buildings in the lower left.

What you say about shooting into or away from twilight is definitely a factor as well. This shot was shooting almost 90 degrees azimuth from sunset.

[Kirk Gittings]

I would like to see more of your cityscapes. Are they all in New York?

[John NYC]

I make my living doing these shots. It is my bread and butter. I oftentimes have flown halfway acros the country and only have one night to pull these off so I can't rely on any method that is not rock solid.

Should have mentioned that I definitely appreciate this fact. No one should hire me to do the gigs you do!

My aims are actually quite different. With this project, I am trying to create a specific mood about how New York makes me feel. I am not necessarily interested in perfection in the way architects would judge these photos (though I have received some positive general encouragement from a couple).

I looked at the art prints of cityscapes from the famous Chicago firm you mention. While very, very well done, they are quite cold to me. I used to write commercial music for a living, and I ran into something like that in my own work there. It wasn't artistic at some point, it was just well done stuff that really really worked for the task at hand.

[Kirk Gittings]

It is architectural photography as a subset of advertising photography-much of what I do for clients. If it weren't for my personal work I would feel like a total whore sometimes.

[John NYC]

I would like to see more of your cityscapes. Are they all in New York?

Yes, here is a sampling of what I have taken. My goal is to eventually get 20 shots I am happy with. So far, I probably only have about three that might make the cut. It has been very difficult to find private locations (which is what I am interested in) to get access to, especially with my own busy regular worklife and life. Couple that with the crazy weather for the past year especially, and I have been making little progress. But when I do get to make one of these, I really enjoy doing it. That really is part of the goal as well. I find shooting 8x10 to be my most enjoyable shooting experience of all the film and digital cameras I use.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/33946021@N04/sets/72157627404701782/

[Kirk Gittings]

That is a really nice body of work. Keep at it. I suppose that getting access to shooting platforms is a bit of a nightmare.

[John NYC]

That is a really nice body of work. Keep at it. I suppose that getting access to shooting platforms is a bit of a nightmare.

Thanks for the encouragement. Much appreciated.

Yep, access is the tough thing. Sometimes someone I have lined up will say, "I am free tonight, come over!" But then I tell them I can't because the wind is blowing 20mph gusts or the sky is completely dark with thick, uninteresting clouds... Or that I am not free that day. After once or twice of this type of thing, they sometimes understandably lose interest in helping. I suspect that while this project started on 8x10, it will be so long before I am done that I will finish it with a 120MP back that by that time will cost only several thousand dollars!

[Brian C. Miller]

I am interesting in a spot light meter capable of metering in the night, under moonlight. Any suggestions?

Out at night, under real moonlight? Forget the meters, it will depend on the film.

Reciprocity failure may (or may not) be interesting. I found, using Fuji 100/1000 E6, that a scene by full moonlight may look almost exactly like it had been photographed in the daylight. A 15 minute exposure looked like it was shot at high noon, and the only giveaway that it had been shot at night were some lights reflected on the water. But with Agfa film I could get excellent reciprocity failure effects all the time.

Meters are OK for light sources like street lamps, etc. But for moonlight, your film will decide what the exposure should really be, and you can only determine that through experimentation.

[toyotadesigner]

Wondering if you are viewing my image on a Mac that is pre-leopard OS?

Nope, Snow Leopard on an iMac.

[John NYC]

Nope, Snow Leopard on an iMac.

Just wondering as that is when they switched from Gamma 1.8.

Even though they all have the same Gamma now, this photo, on my iPad, my MacBook, my iMac and my windows machine looks totally different on each in terms of brightness and contrast.

[John NYC]

John,


If you have a Mac there is a nice little widget for you:
http://code.google.com/p/solwidget/

You can select the civil, nautical or astronomical light. Not sure if it's available for an iPhone as well.


While looking for this on the iPad (not avail), I found a really cool app called LunaSolCal.

[Frank Petronio]

I make my living doing these shots. It is my bread and butter. I oftentimes have flown halfway acros the country and only have one night to pull these off so I can't rely on any method that is not rock solid. Sorry Frank, bracketing like a madman will not help you if you are there at the wrong time. I guess you could do a series of brakets around the exposure every ten minutes over say an hour. Sounds like a plan Frank.

OK! You caught me bullshitting. But it was just that one time, I swear!

Granted shooting chromes and balancing lights would get me to use a meter, instant film, a digital, and everything else possible at my disposal, probably multiple tripods and cameras for a money shot. For negatives at night of general cityscapes I can get by with crude guessing...

But listen to Kirk, he knows the right way.

[Joe O'Hara]

--snip--
I measure the bright interior lit areas and place them on ZVII or a lit exterior and place the exterior on about ZVII. I then wait for the sky light to drop to about one stop lower meter reading than the meter reading of the lit part of the building that I am basing the exposure on. -- snip-- .

Kirk, if I'm reading this right, you are placing bright interiors on zone 7 and you wait for the sky to be on zone 6 relative to that. When I look at the examples you showed of the Reno job, the skies looked more line zone 4 or 5 to me on at least some of the images. Am I misunderstanding something?

Also, is all of this using color negative film? In my experience zone 7 is almost featureless using Fujichrome, moreso than your interiors look. (If it is transparency film I'd like to know what kind!)

Thanks.

[l2oBiN]

Hmmm seems like the thread has gone off the rail a bit. Let me be a bit more clear. What is the most sensitive 1 degree spotmeter available? Someone mentioned there are ones measuring at EV 0 ??

[Bill Burk]

Here are a few EV at 100 ...
Sekonic L-758DR ... Spot mode EV 1 {Incident mode EV -2}
Pentax Spotmeter V analog ... EV 1
SEI Photometer ... EV -2 {If I set it right - hard to tell because it doesn't have a real gray-mark}

[altec2]

Thanks for the encouragement. Much appreciated.

Yep, access is the tough thing. Sometimes someone I have lined up will say, "I am free tonight, come over!" But then I tell them I can't because the wind is blowing 20mph gusts or the sky is completely dark with thick, uninteresting clouds... Or that I am not free that day. After once or twice of this type of thing, they sometimes understandably lose interest in helping. I suspect that while this project started on 8x10, it will be so long before I am done that I will finish it with a 120MP back that by that time will cost only several thousand dollars!

Do you mind if I ask how you even find these places to shoot from?

Do they have the ability to open windows in a tall building or do you ever shoot through a window?

[John NYC]

Do you mind if I ask how you even find these places to shoot from?

Do they have the ability to open windows in a tall building or do you ever shoot through a window?

Finding locations is the hardest part of this project and the most frustrating. Most of my shots are off of roofs. A couple are out of open windows. I won't shoot through a closed window or a pane glass. Basically, friends and people I meet.

I would do this project every weekend (and go broke doing it!) if I could just get the access I need.