Developing Film in Ridged Trays

[tgtaylor]

Don't do it!

When choosing an 8x10 negative to contact print last night I discovered one with faint outlines of the ridges on the tray which surely would appear in the print :(

Thomas

[Jay DeFehr]

Thomas,

I'm not a fan of tray development, in general, though it can't be argued that it's not potentially effective. Do you develop emulsion down, or up? If you develop emulsion down the the culprit must be the local exhaustion of developer in the areas where the film contacts the tray, as opposed to the areas where it does not. Were you using a dilute developer? With infrequent agitation? If you develop emulsion up, the only potential culprit I can think of might be a temperature variation in the ridge/non-ridge areas. My condolences on your negative.

[MIke Sherck]

I use Yankee trays, which are the opposite: they have grooves (depressions) rather than ridges. Still, I think that the problem could be fixed by using more developer solution, enough so that the negative can float a bit when the tray is rocked. I use a quart of D-76 in an 8x10 try for developing up to a dozen 4x5 negatives, or four 8x10 negatives at a time and have never seen this problem.

Mike

[Scott Walker]

I have never had that problem and I tray develop exclusively....any issues I have are usually related to over agitation. If I have the wrong music on I tend to get a bit agressive with the shuffeling of film. I also use the Yanke style trays, emulsion up.

[tgtaylor]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Actually I did make a quick print of it last night. I'm interested in making a "fine art" print of this location and wanted to get a better idea of the "ideal" conditions. Here is a quick scan of it:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6081/6153546305_5d1569b244_z.jpg

You can clearly see the outlines of the ridges of the depressions of the Patterson 8x10tray I was using. Ironically I processed another negative of the same scene landscape orientation that was taken only seconds later in the same tray either immediately before or after processing the above image and it does not have the lines. I used 800mL of D-76 1:1 @ 68F for 12 minutes and, since I was processing 1 sheet at a time, gave both sheets the same agitation which consisted of lifting the sheet and tilting it at a 45 degree angle side-to- side and flipping it over at 1 minute intervals.

I'll admit that I'm a novice at tray developing having only processed maybe 20 sheets of 8x10 in trays but this is the only sheet that picked up the grooves of the Patterson tray.

Thomas

[jtrupiano]

I agree with Jay, the ridges must have had an effect on how much developer made contact with the sheet. Try emulsion-up next time, and just leave it up - no need to flip the sheets.

Don't give up on the trays just yet. I use trays for processing all the time - and trust it more than the hangers/tank method. I'll do up to 10 at a time(4x5), just keep agitating with one hand while rotating the sheets (bottom to top) with the other - emulsion-up the entire time.

[Leigh]

My Cescolite trays have bumps rather than ridges.

I process 8x10 emulsion-down in 11x14 trays using interleave agitation and have no issues at all.

- Leigh

[false_Aesthetic]

i think emulsion up.
more developer.

[D. Bryant]

i think emulsion up.
more developer.

The amount of developer doesn't change if the emulsion is up or down. :)

If you must use trays for film developing use flat bottomed trays and develop emulsion down to minimize emulsion scratches.

Always use trays 1 size larger than the film size to prevent over development at the edges of the film.

Watch out for uneven development when developing with 1 or 2 sheets of film and/or staining developers.

Avoid very short developing times.

Try to develop several sheets at at time and inter-leave the sheets moving the bottom to the top every 30 secs. I prefer to use a programmable process timer that beeps every 30 sec. You may use a different shuffling technique just be consistent but don't over agitate.

However just don't use trays if possible. Drum processing will get you there in style and in the light.

[Greg Blank]

Or just buy an Expert drum and never look back :)

[Doremus Scudder]

I had exactly the same problem when I tried developing emulsion-side-down a few years ago. I had read that developing emulsion-side-down was less prone to negative damage. After seeing the areas of increased density that corresponded to the ridges in the tray, I quickly switched back to emulsion-side-up, as I had been doing already for years, and never looked back.

I also have standardized on Paterson trays that have wide grooves instead of ridges, but never had problems with the ridged trays when developing emulsion-side-up.

Hope this helps.

Doremus Scudder

[cyrus]

Don't do it!

When choosing an 8x10 negative to contact print last night I discovered one with faint outlines of the ridges on the tray which surely would appear in the print :(

Thomas

Shouldn't develop emulsion down, and should agitate more.

[tgtaylor]

Thanks again for the replies everyone :)

I've given this matter some thought and I imagine that in the dark I pushed this sheet down to the bottom where it settled and the ridges of the tray blocked circulation of the developer. A constant agitation pattern may have prevented this but as I was processing each sheet individually I was following Ilford's intermittent agitation recommendation at the given development time for Delta 100. For future tray development of regular B&W film I'm going to process it emulsion up as recommended by several posters. For X-Ray film, which has an emulsion on both sides, I'm will need to be very careful that the film does not settle on the bottom.

Thomas

[false_Aesthetic]

The amount of developer doesn't change if the emulsion is up or down. :)



chuckle. I guess I mean't use more developer.

Nick Nixon teaches his students to do exactly as you describe: flat bottom tray emulsion down. IIRC, he advocates constantly working through the stack.

I could never get it to work well for me.


Back to OP. I got those same lines when I started developing in trays. When I flipped my film emulsion up I got some uneven development. I did a mock developing session with the lights on to see what was going on. It just looked like I needed more developer (4x5s or 5x7s in an 8x10 tray). Now I opt for close to 1.5L.

If there's ever something I'm super worried about I use a slosher tray. They're easy to build especially if you have access to a few power tools.

[cyrus]

Flat bottom trays, emulsion side down = trying too hard with scratchy fingernails to life the neg off the bottom, will be more likely to scratch.

[Michael Kadillak]

I use dimpled bottomed and ridged bottomed trays all the time with sheet film tray development and have never had a problem with using the Michael and Paula techinque of emulsion side UP. Given the fact that common sense would tell you that the emulsion surface is the most susceptible one in the process, why would anyone knowingly put it potentially in surface contact with the bottom of the tray? Emulsion side up works for me just fine.

I find three variables drive these results. The first is ample developer in your trays to support the tray development procedure (pull the sheet from the bottom and slowly push it down from the top). The second is to have the capability of seeing what you are doing with an infrared monocle so you are not fumbling around and unnecessarily creating the scratching by doing you best Hellen Keller imitation in complete darkness and having a panic attack with your fingers. Developing sheet film in a tray like it is broad daylight with the IR monocle is absolutely fool proof. You can see what you are doing so you can be patient and take your time. Lastly it is all about keeping your fingers on the film edges and being gentle. Flat bottom trays can work fine but you need to learn to work the film edges to carefully grasp the sheets to properly and safely shuffle them. Many times the best solution is the easiest solution.