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Leigh
8-Sep-2011, 16:54
Hi All,

Been shooting LF for many decades, but just got my first Sinar, a "late" F2, whatever "late" means.

I would like to buy a copy of the Sinar System Handbook, but I need to know which edition to get. I would like the one that covers this camera, before they got heavily into digital.

Any suggestions, or can someone tell me the years of production for the F2?

TIA

- Leigh

Caroline Matthews
8-Sep-2011, 19:26
I'm pretty sure the F2 cameras were unchanged throughout their life, but I'm no expert. You might try joining the Sinar group on APUG and post the question there.

Frank Petronio
8-Sep-2011, 22:17
Since you can build a Sinar from a variety of parts, unless you're getting something mint in the original kit box, you could have a mix of parts spread over 25 years or whenever they started making rails black....

sanchi heuser
8-Sep-2011, 23:52
Hi Leigh,

some days ago I purchased a rear standard of the "latest" Sinar F2
and I still have the rear standard of the former model.
I'll make a photo of both and post it here, so one has a direct comparison
(give me some hours time).

The handling of the Sinar F, F2, or improved F2 is easy.
There's a newer book from the eighties:

http://www.amazon.de/Basics-Applications-Creative-Large-Format/dp/3723100309/ref=sr_1_1?s=books-intl-de&ie=UTF8&qid=1315548891&sr=1-1
I would not really recommend it, it's more like a pimped up advertising brochure IMHO:rolleyes:


This manual is a bit older but more helpful if one wants to know about the practical handling of the Sinar view cameras:

http://www.webster.edu/acadaffairs/asp/mediacenter/Photo/equipment%20manuals/sinar_introduction_manual.pdf
I would recommend this:)

From the Sinar website:
http://www.sinar.ch/en/infos

There are also catalogue of the components, complete part lists (every little screw listed), repair manuals...


BTW, the serial number of the Sinar is engraved in the rear clamp AFAIK.
But the rear clamp can be exchanged and so it's useless to say how old the other
components are.
There's a good chance that every component has
a different manufacturing date if one gets a used Sinar (what Frank said above).
Important IMHO is just that everything is in good function, and the
ground glass and spirit levels are aligned.
Then it 'll be a real joy to photograph with it.

Cheers Andi

sanchi heuser
9-Sep-2011, 06:23
The "late" F2:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6186/6129497423_2e5e62bc3e_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/58013730@N08/6129497423/)
Sinar F2 Rear Standard (newer model) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/58013730@N08/6129497423/)

The functions:
1. course-focus clamping knob
2. fine-focussing drive with depth of field scale
3. clamping lever for tilt (horizontal axis)
4. spirit level and angle meter for tilt (horizontal axis)
5. clamping wheel for vertical shift
6. scale in mm for vertical shift
7. clamping lever for lateral shift
8. scale in mm for lateral shift
9. clamping lever for swing (vertical axis)
10. angle scale for swing (vertical axis)
11. spirit level for the horizon
12. angle-metering scale for tilt and swing angles (used for locating the plane of sharpness,
horizontal and/or vertical axis)



The older F2:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6197/6130125332_ab587171a2_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/58013730@N08/6130125332/)
Sinar F2 Rear Standard (older model) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/58013730@N08/6130125332/)




and the "late" F2 front standard

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6210/6130184850_086eb8d72f_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/58013730@N08/6130184850/)
Sinar F2 Front Standard (newer model) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/58013730@N08/6130184850/)

rdenney
9-Sep-2011, 06:49
I have a copy of Sinar product line descriptions from 1987 (from Mike Butkus's Orphan Cameras site). They show all-black components, and the F2 is described as the "newest" entry in the Sinar modular system. That doesn't say when the F2 was introduced, but it does say it was introduced at least 24 years ago, and that Sinar had changed to the all-black color scheme by then. These cameras also had the round knobs with the knurled rubber grips, versus the four-lobed bakelite knobs used on the early chrome-rail F and P.

My Sinar has an F rear standard and an F2 front standard. I also have a Norma-era multipurpose standard that works with the system. Mixing and matching is normal, but not always done correctly.

Rick "who can't see any difference at all in Sanchi's 'early' and 'late' F2 rear standards" Denney

sanchi heuser
9-Sep-2011, 07:28
Hi Rick,

there's only very slight difference.
The 'late' one has the additional clamping lever for lateral shift (#7 in the first pic).
The 'early' F2 has not that lever, the lateral shift is fixed with the
clamping lever for swing #9.
Both versions are very good IMHO.



http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6085/6129803847_2e793b70f6_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/58013730@N08/6129803847/)
More Details Sinar F2 Rear Standard (newer model) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/58013730@N08/6129803847/)


http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6193/6129804413_f117acd2e4_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/58013730@N08/6129804413/)
More Details Sinar F2 Rear Standard (older model) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/58013730@N08/6129804413/)

Sevo
9-Sep-2011, 08:43
I have a copy of Sinar product line descriptions from 1987 (from Mike Butkus's Orphan Cameras site). They show all-black components, and the F2 is described as the "newest" entry in the Sinar modular system. That doesn't say when the F2 was introduced, but it does say it was introduced at least 24 years ago,

24 years before 1987 would be 1963, deep in Norma time - sinars weren't even black/silver, but grey/olive at that time. I.e. two full generations off all black. The black/silver scheme did not appear until the f/p were released in 1970 - all black came in the mid eighties with the f2/p2.

I bought a new silver f in 1985, then still a current model but getting long in the tooth and discounted, as the p2 was already out. I added a (then very new) black f2 less than two years later when I next did a job that required a light travel kit (the f had by that time ended up as parts in my studio rig).

The release of the colour scheme change and model introduction (there never was a black base rail f) must have been in September 1986 - at that time, it would have been very odd to make such a change out of sync with the bi-annual Photokina, which was in even years.

Sevo

Sevo
9-Sep-2011, 08:44
I have a copy of Sinar product line descriptions from 1987 (from Mike Butkus's Orphan Cameras site). They show all-black components, and the F2 is described as the "newest" entry in the Sinar modular system. That doesn't say when the F2 was introduced, but it does say it was introduced at least 24 years ago,

24 years before 1987 would be 1963, deep in Norma time - sinars weren't even black/silver, but grey/olive at that time. I.e. two full generations off all black. The black/silver scheme did not appear until the f/p were released in 1970 - all black came in the mid eighties with the f2/p2.

I bought a new black/silver f in 1985, then still a current model but getting long in the tooth and discounted, as the p2 was already out. I added a (then very new) all black f2 less than two years later when I next did a job that required a light travel kit (the f had by that time ended up as parts in my studio rig).

The release of the colour scheme change and model introduction (there never was a black base rail f) must have been in September 1986 - at that time, it would have been very odd to make such a change out of sync with the bi-annual Photokina, which was in even years.

Sevo

rdenney
9-Sep-2011, 08:56
That's a new one for me. I was convinced prior to now that all F2 standards had separate locks for swing and shift, just as F standards had only one lock for both.

My F2 front standard certainly has separate locks. It's the main reason I wanted it. I'm glad I didn't know this when I bought it or I might have been filled with doubt. That useful feature is important on the front standard, but for me less so on the rear since I generally put the rear vertical and use it for rise and fall, and do focus-plane and shift adjustments with the front.

You've made me go look at my books again. Sure enough, the picture of the F2 in those 1987 issues of "Sinar--The Camera" and "Sinar Code" showed the front standard without a separate shift lock. The picture of the F2 in my 2000/2001 System Catalogue has the shift lock on the front standard, but the F1 does not. Sinar didn't make it easy to tell: The front standard without the separate shift lock has the same part number (in the 1987 catalog) as the front standard with the separate lock in the 2001 catalog: 431.61. Go figure.

Rick "now wondering when Sinar added that important feature" Denney

Sevo
9-Sep-2011, 09:16
The f2 has a dedicated front standard with enhanced controls, while the F and f1 (and C, as well as the lighter cheaper variants of the Norma) used the regular multi-purpose standard (bellows support) for its front standard.

Leigh
9-Sep-2011, 14:11
The main difference between the F2 tront standard and that of the F is the former has 'micrometer' focus adjustment, while the latter has no adjustment other than moving the entire assembly along the rail.

Comparing your early and late rear standard photos, the early one has +3/-7cm of marked shift, while the later one is +3/-5cm.

BTW, my F2 is definitely all-original and pristine, purchased from the original owner. He only had one Sinar, so I know it wasn't put together.
It has the shift lock and micrometer focus on the front. The description mentioned those but I didn't understand the significance.

Thanks for all the info.

- Leigh

rdenney
10-Sep-2011, 09:33
The main difference between the F2 tront standard and that of the F is the former has 'micrometer' focus adjustment, while the latter has no adjustment other than moving the entire assembly along the rail.

Yes, that was the main feature of the F2. The weakness of the F front standard was the clip, which could break if overtightened. But that is an advantage as a multipurpose standard--it can be installed between two standards (as a bellows joint) without removing either.

There are subtle differences as well. The detent for the swing zero position in an F standard is a spring-loaded ball riding in an aluminum channel. On the F2, the ball sits in a steel wear plate, which is a more durable design.

I have service manuals somewhere. I think I'll did around and see if I can find a date for the addition of the separate shift lock. The service manuals show variations not visible in the product numbers.

Rick "who learned that trying repair a broken tilt head" Denney

Mark Sampson
10-Sep-2011, 10:18
In about 1992, the company I worked for bought a new 4x5 Sinar F2. It was the 'later' model as shown in the post above, and a fine camera.

sanchi heuser
10-Sep-2011, 15:29
The main difference between the F2 tront standard and that of the F is the former has 'micrometer' focus adjustment, while the latter has no adjustment other than moving the entire assembly along the rail.

Comparing your early and late rear standard photos, the early one has +3/-7cm of marked shift, while the later one is +3/-5cm.

BTW, my F2 is definitely all-original and pristine, purchased from the original owner. He only had one Sinar, so I know it wasn't put together.
It has the shift lock and micrometer focus on the front. The description mentioned those but I didn't understand the significance.

Thanks for all the info.

- Leigh

Leigh
you're right there's a difference in the lateral shift, I didn't see that.

Hmm, no big deal IMO.
If I need more I just shift both standards in opposite direction.
I rarely need so much and there's also the possibility
to turn the camera e.g. 45 to the left and swing both standards 45 to the right
so they are paralell.
Together with maximum lateral shift it would end with extreme much shift.
I don't know in the moment for what I could use that, maybe with longer
focal length?


I hope you'll enjoy photographing with your Sinar F2.

Cheers Andi

Leigh
10-Sep-2011, 16:39
Hi Andi,

I mentioned the difference only as a simple means of identification. I can't see it making an operational difference.

Haven't taken the camera out yet due to the rainy weather, but hope to soon.

Thanks.

- Leigh

rdenney
10-Sep-2011, 16:58
Okay, I've looked in the Sinar service manual for the F series, and they changed to the separate shift lock in October 31, 1990, which is the date on the sheet that shows the parts for that mechanism. The diagrams showing the standards with the separate lock are called "F2 mod."

Many of the pages in the manual show later editions, in which case the date on the sheet isn't relevant. But the sheets with the F2 special front standard (which has more rise for use with 5x7 and 8x10 rear standards) is still Edition 1, and it is dated November, 1986. That would suggest to me pretty strongly that the F2 first came out that year.

So, if the F2 first appeared in 1986, and the separate shift lock appeared in 1990, then that is consistent with my catalogs, which show an F2 with no lock in 1987 and with the lock in 2001. An F2 standard without the lock is therefore dated between 1986 and 1990, while any F2 standard with the separate lock is newer than 1990.

Both versions show the improved detent mechanism I described above. There are a few other changes, none of which are on parts that are visible externally. Not all the changes are notated in a way that makes it easy to date them, but the level of detail for each variation is astounding.

Rick "who owns few things as well documented as Sinar cameras" Denney

Leigh
10-Sep-2011, 17:05
Thanks very much for the research, Rick.

That means I really want an edition of the book from 1990 or later.

Thanks again.

- Leigh

rdenney
10-Sep-2011, 17:52
That means I really want an edition of the book from 1990 or later.

Actually, the change may have appeared after their 1990 manual was written (if there is a 1990 manual). Look for one from 1991 or later.

Rick "unless you can look at it first" Denney

Leigh
10-Sep-2011, 17:55
Roger that. Thanks.

- Leigh