Bag Bellows V Recessed Lens Board

[Geoffsco]

I've just picked up a 90mm lens, which is my first wide lens. I generally stick to normal focal lengths but have become interested in architecture recently.

With the standard bellows, I've got fairly limited front rise when focused at infinity. A bag bellows would I assume give me the full range of movements, but is quite expensive. So I was wondering, how much difference would a recessed lens board make with the standard bellows?

[Jim Noel]

The camera you are using will make a difference in the answers.

[Gem Singer]

It is difficult to operate the controls on a shutter that is mounted in a recessed lens board due to the cramped quarters inside of the recess.

If your camera is capable of interchangeable bellows, a bag bellows is preferred for wide angle lenses.

If not, a recessed lens board is your only option.

[Bob Salomon]

"It is difficult to operate the controls on a shutter that is mounted in a recessed lens board due to the cramped quarters inside of the recess."

Not necessarily. It depends on the board and its design. Some small boards are very tight, true. But others, like the Linhof 001015 Comfort board have all the operating controls on the front surface of the board, including the aperture scale, aperture selector, press focus control.

Larger boards like a Karda or a M679 recessed board are large enough that they work just like a flat board. They just get the lens closer to the image plane.

The answer really depends on the design of the camera, how close together the standards can get. If they can not get close enough together then you may need both a bag bellows and a recessed board. The other consideration is what kind of movements does the camera have and how much of them you want to use. That can also make either a bag bellows and/or a recessed board necessary.

These are the reasons why manufacturers make both choices available on those cameras that can use them.

[Gem Singer]

Geoffsco,

If you would state the make of the camera that you are using and/or the type of lens board it takes, it would be easier to give you an informed answer to your question.

From experience, recessed lens boards are usually meant to be used with smaller size Copal 0 shutters. A Copal 0 shutter mounted in a standard size Linhof Tech recessed lens board doesn't leave much room for your fingers to operate the controls.

The larger size Toyo field and Toyo View recessed lens boards allow more room to use your finger to operate the shutter controls. However, even with the larger recess it is difficult to see the aperture settings on a Copal 0 shutter behind the flared front element of a wide angle lens.

Having used recessed lens boards, bag bellows, and combinations of recessed lens board and bag bellows, on various makes and sizes of cameras, I prefer using a bag bellows and a flat lens board with wide angle lenses.

[Bob Salomon]

"A Copal 0 shutter mounted in a standard size Linhof Tech recessed lens board doesn't leave much room for your fingers to operate the controls. "

That is why Linhof makes the 001015 Comfort board. There is the same amount of maneuvering space as a flat board since all the controls are on the flat part of the board. Not in the recess.

[GPS]

I've just picked up a 90mm lens, which is my first wide lens. I generally stick to normal focal lengths but have become interested in architecture recently.

With the standard bellows, I've got fairly limited front rise when focused at infinity. A bag bellows would I assume give me the full range of movements, but is quite expensive. So I was wondering, how much difference would a recessed lens board make with the standard bellows?

It seems to me that you could answer your own question with just a simple test on your own. Free your lens from its lens board, hold it pushed back with the same amount that a recessed lens board gives and see how it would behave with movements. If you need you could improvise the flat part of the recessed lens board with a piece of cardboard.

[Gem Singer]

Bob,

Are you sure the camera that the OP is inquiring about takes a Linhof Tech type lens board?

[Bob Salomon]

Bob,

Are you sure the camera that the OP is inquiring about takes a Linhof Tech type lens board?

I don't think he is yet to specify what type of camera or board he needs. But the Technika 45 board is the most commonly used by the most camera manufacturers.

[Gem Singer]

Bob,

I understand your desire to plug the products that HP Marketing sells. However, aren't you making an assumption here?

Wisner, Zone VI, Cambo, Deardorf, Sinar, Horseman, Canham, Toyo View, Toyo Field, to mention only a few, do not use Linhof Tech type lens boards.

[Bob Salomon]

Bob,

I understand your desire to plug the products that HP Marketing sells. However, aren't you making an assumption here?

Wisner, Zone VI, Cambo, Deardorf, Sinar, Horseman, Canham, Toyo View, Toyo Field, to mention only a few, do not use Linhof Tech type lens boards.

Unless you have an adapter board. Wista and many other wooden and technical cameras do use the Technika board.

[Gem Singer]

Bob,

Let's not do this.

My enlarged prostate puts me at a distinct disadvantage in a pissing contest.

[GPS]

Bob,

Let's not do this.

My enlarged prostate puts me at a distinct disadvantage in a pissing contest.

You definitely need the Comfort board... :)

[Geoffsco]

Thanks for the answers so far.


If you would state the make of the camera that you are using and/or the type of lens board it takes, it would be easier to give you an informed answer to your question.

The camera is an Arca Swiss F monorail, I'm using the standard synthetic bellows and it takes the 141x141mm lens boards, so I have quite a bit of space there. The standards will sit right next to each other, I have no problem focussing the lens, but I only have about 10-15mm rise at infinity due to the bellows.

The lens I have bought it a Rodenstock 4.5/90 Grandagon N, in copal 1. The front element is quite large

[Gem Singer]

Arca swiss makes an excellent wide angle bellows. It's spendy, but well worth the investment.

See: "Large Format Nature Photography", by Jack Dykinga.

[rdenney]

If you are going to use your short lens much, and especially if there is a chance you'll get an even shorter lens at some point, get the bag bellows.

I had a 90/5.6 Super Angulon (similar to your lens) mounted in a fairly roomy Cambo recessed board, and it was a pain in the rear. I made it work--bag bellows even for Cambos were very expensive in those days--but I had to find the right cable release and really needed much smaller hands. My fingers are long and fat, and I despise recessed boards. My eyes are no good any more and seeing the controls on small shutters is bad enough without having to sight them down in the recess. But I also like short lenses. I ended up with both types of bag bellows for my Sinar. One of them cost half as much as I paid for the camera and it was worth it.

Rick "who replaced the Cambo system primarily to support short lenses on flat boards" Denney

[Ivan J. Eberle]

"
That is why Linhof makes the 001015 Comfort board.

Yes-- and they're a mere $485.95 from B&H:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/31360-REG/Linhof_001015_Recessed_Lensboard_with_Quicksocket.html

Whole used perfectly good cameras with bag bellows can be found for a similar amount of money.


Wisner, Zone VI, Cambo, Deardorf, Sinar, Horseman, Canham, Toyo View, Toyo Field, to mention only a few, do not use Linhof Tech type lens boards.

Awhile back, I picked up a really nice Sinar Norma for slightly under $500, with a bag bellows and a Techika-style to Sinar board adapter. This camera very comfortably and easily accommodated all the moves that could be used the widest lenses--and did so using any old flat Technika-style board.

Put me in the camp of those finding monorails infinitely easier to use with wide angles and moves. (Might mention I also have a couple of Meridians which themselves are among the most wide-angle friendly of all technical cameras).

[Bob Salomon]

Yes-- and they're a mere $485.95 from B&H:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/31360-REG/Linhof_001015_Recessed_Lensboard_with_Quicksocket.html

Whole used perfectly good cameras with bag bellows can be found for a similar amount of money."

Is that the point? The statement was that all recessed boards are difficult to use. The answer is that they all are not. Not even this Technika 45 board. But the cost is the cost for the solution.

"Awhile back, I picked up a really nice Sinar Norma for slightly under $500, with a bag bellows and a Techika-style to Sinar board adapter. This camera very comfortably and easily accommodated all the moves that could be used the widest lenses--and did so using any old flat Technika-style board.

Put me in the camp of those finding monorails infinitely easier to use with wide angles and moves. (Might mention I also have a couple of Meridians which themselves are among the most wide-angle friendly of all technical cameras).

No, only the widest you use. They do make lenses as wide as 23mm for view cameras (no it does not cover 45 but it is still used on a view camera) Then there are 24mm, 28mm, 32mm, 35,, 45mm, 40mm, 47mm, 50mm, 55mm, 58mm as well as 65, 72, 75, 80, 90mm. Have you tried to get all of these on your camera or only the lenses that you use? Someone else may have different needs in lenses.

[Ivan J. Eberle]

I was writing my post before I noticed that the OP had clarified he's an Arca guy and the nature of his problem.

Nevertheless, my point was that better bang for the buck goes to the a camera that'll accomodate the same lens on a bag bellows and flat board versus a spendy recessed board.

Bob, are you suggesting that a recessed board is superior to a flat board regime when it comes to moves? First thing that comes to mind with a recessed board is that the axis of movement no longer coincides with the nodal point.

[Bob Salomon]

I was writing my post before I saw that the OP had made clear he's an Arca guy.

Nevertheless, my point was that better bang for the buck goes to the a camera that'll accomodate the same lens on a bag bellows and flat board versus a spendy recessed board.

Bob, are you suggesting that a recessed board is superior to a flat board regime when it comes to moves? First thing that comes to mind with a recessed board is that the axis of movement no longer coincides with the nodal point.

No, I am suggesting that not all recessed boards are difficult to use. That was the comment originally. Sometimes they are mandatory. Depends on the camera and the lens.

For example.
On the Linhof Techno field camera a 23mm Rodenstock HR Digaron-S requires a 001143 flat lensboard and a 24mm Schneider Apo-Digitar XL Integral requires a 001035 21mm recessed board.
The flange focal lengths of the lenses are what make the difference as well as how close the front standard can get to the image plane.

[tgtaylor]

I have the Rodenstock 90mm Grandagon f4.5 and it's definetly too large to mount on a Toyo 110mm square board. However the Toyo field and view camera's don't require a recessed board for the 90mm to obtain full movements but the 75mm Rodenstock f4.5 does so I have the 75mm mounted on a recessed 110mm board to use with the fields and both the regular and recessed field to view (156mm) adaptor boards. The 90mm sits in the view recessed adaptor with plenty of room to operate the controls but you need L-shapped adaptor for the cable release. I bought a leather bag bellows in perfect condition on ebay some time back for $50.

Thomas

[Geoffsco]

Arca swiss makes an excellent wide angle bellows. It's spendy, but well worth the investment.

I have no doubt, Arca stuff is not cheap, but they make no short cuts either.


If you are going to use your short lens much, and especially if there is a chance you'll get an even shorter lens at some point, get the bag bellows.

I can see myself using the 90mm quite a bit, not sure at this stage if I would go shorter, but certainly is possible.

I have now done a bit of a guesstimation of how much an 18mm recessed board would free up my movements (perhaps should have thought of this earlier), and it did help, but probably not as much as I would like. The bag bellows appear to be the way to go, with time, I will forget about the blown budget!

[GPS]

...
The bag bellows appear to be the way to go, with time, I will forget about the blown budget!

Kudos, that's the right approach. Once you have a camera of this quality (Arca, Linhof etc.) then enjoy also accessories of that quality. There is no joy to have an Arca on crutches...;)
I have 3 bellows for my Arca and the most used one I have is the speciality one made on order from them.

[Frank Petronio]

I used the 90/4.5 on an 171mm Arca Discovery and was very pleased to have the bag bellows, which was useful with my 150mm lens as well. Over 180mm I think it would be too short. Not sure of the specs of the current 141 bag bellows.

The idea bellows to me would have been one of the deeply pleated leather ones they used on the field versions of the 171-110 cameras - I think they handled 90 to 210mm lenses nicely. Might be worth discussing with a good dealer to see if there is a potential "all-arounder" on their product list if you are buying new?

FWIW the Gepe flexible extension cable makes tighter recessed lensboards usable, although flashlights, dental mirrors, and toothpicks are still sometimes drafted to help.