Cutting metal lens boards

[psychoanalyst]

Hello,

I hope this is the right place for this question.

I wonder what tools I would need to cut my own lens board holes? I have a 4x5 Speed Graphic and would like to get some barrel lenses (over time), but I find that its not that cheap to get a machine shop to do it for you.

I looked up amazon and saw that the entire cutter kit from Dremel would cost me $60
http://www.amazon.com/Dremel-300-1-24-Variable-Speed-Rotary/dp/B002BAHFBE/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1315311513&sr=1-1

Does it make any sense to purchase or are there simpler ways of cutting holes in the lens boards?

I am currently giving my boards to a local machine shop that waterjets them for me.....and that costs me $35 per board. Add the cost of the board and I am already at $55.

Advice would be appreciated.

Thanks a lot.

Avi

[jp]

I use a drill press. Clamp the lensboard to a piece of scrap wood, put some oil where you're going to drill (if it's a metal lensboard), and use a normal holesaw at slow speed. Lacking that, wear boots and stand on the edges of the lensboard and drill it with a portable drill.

If it's a wooden lensboard, just sandwich it between two pieces of scrap wood and drill.

You're probably looking at $150 for a drill press and hole saw kit, but a drill press is a very handy tool.

[Bob Salomon]

The proper way to make the hole in a lensboard is to have the hole milled. This won't bend or warp the board as drilling or other cutting methods (Greenlee punch) can do.
That is one reason why a machinist charges more. He has the right tools.
Yo might give Quality Camera or KEH a call to see if they have any pre-drilled ones for sale since you are in Atlanta.

[Allen Rumme]

Another "proper way" to cut the hole is on a lathe.

[Jim Jones]

Starting with no tools at all, a reasonably handy person might buy a hand drill and appropriate bit, a hand jig saw and a few fine-tooth blades, a fine cut half round file, and a C-clamp to do it cheaper than having just one cut by a professional machinist. Cutting by hand is neater than using a Dremel tool. Dremel does include a circle cutter in their kit, but it may be for 4" or larger holes. Perhaps one could be improvised for smaller holes in lens boards.

With a drill press, one can clamp the lens board to a layer of wood on the press and use a fly cutter or circle cutter http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&productId=100659792&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=100659792&cm_mmc=shopping-_-googlebase-_-D25X-_-100659792. A really patient craftsman can even use the cited circle cutter by hand. A hole saw kit may include the size you need, and would be better and safer to use than a fly cutter. With care a hole saw can be used iwth a hand drill. For frequent use, I made a jig to hold the flat lens boards from older Speed Graphic and other cameras securely on the drill press. It can be adapted to the later Pacemaker series Graphic boards and Linhof boards.

[Nathan Smith]

The main thing for any of these methods is to make sure the board is clamped down tightly - even more important if you're using a hand drill or Dremel. If you're using the hand drill or Dremel you can also buy inexpensive rigs for these so that they operate like a drill press. I use a fly cutter in a drill press and have had no problems.


Starting with no tools at all, a reasonably handy person might buy a hand drill and appropriate bit, a hand jig saw and a few fine-tooth blades, a fine cut half round file, and a C-clamp to do it cheaper than having just one cut by a professional machinist. Cutting by hand is neater than using a Dremel tool. Dremel does include a circle cutter in their kit, but it may be for 4" or larger holes. Perhaps one could be improvised for smaller holes in lens boards.

With a drill press, one can clamp the lens board to a layer of wood on the press and use a fly cutter or circle cutter http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&productId=100659792&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=100659792&cm_mmc=shopping-_-googlebase-_-D25X-_-100659792. A really patient craftsman can even use the cited circle cutter by hand. A hole saw kit may include the size you need, and would be better and safer to use than a fly cutter. With care a hole saw can be used iwth a hand drill. For frequent use, I made a jig to hold the flat lens boards from older Speed Graphic and other cameras securely on the drill press. It can be adapted to the later Pacemaker series Graphic boards and Linhof boards.

[Scott Walker]

I use a lathe because it is quick, acurate and I have one.
If you don't have a lathe or a milling machine the next best solution is to center punch the board and scribe a circle for the exact size of hole needed and cut it out with a jewellers saw.

[Ivan J. Eberle]

If I recall there was a lens-board-drilling-with-hole-saws-gone-wrong-thread not long ago that might be Googled. I'd steer clear of using one except on a drill press with very sturdy clamping. With the slightest misalignment and/or when they finally break through the piece they tend to get stuck. This will often either fling the piece or torque the drill severely (with damage to whoever/whatever the piece hits, or risking a wrist injury with a hand drill given enough horsepower).

Without that hassle, if you've got a Speed Graphic that takes the later exceedingly common boards, why not first put up a WTB request on the For Sale section here, or scour eBay? With literally millions of these boards in circulation, you're likely to find either an exact match or at least something close enough to the hole size you're looking for that you can slightly enlarge a smaller one with a file or a Dremel to fit. (Dremel sanding drums work great for this, incidentally).

I've fit lenses to boards with a milling machine and boring tool, and I've also done it the hobo way with a Dremel. Bridgeport with a boring tool wins hands down over the Dremel for professionally smooth close-tolerance bores that won't leak light.

[goamules]

I've used both the hole saws for smaller holes and the double fly cutter for larger. Never had a problem with anything getting stuck, but I have only cut wooden boards. By the way, you can easily use masonite or plywood to make your Graflex boards, as the old ones were wooden. I assume their later cameras could use the standard wood graflex boards?

[jp]

I've used both the hole saws for smaller holes and the double fly cutter for larger. Never had a problem with anything getting stuck, but I have only cut wooden boards. By the way, you can easily use masonite or plywood to make your Graflex boards, as the old ones were wooden. I assume their later cameras could use the standard wood graflex boards?

Newer speed graphics (and crowns) use a slightly smaller metal board with curved edges that form part of a light trap.

[Jeffrey Sipress]

You've got to be joking. A jig saw?

If you have the boards already or find them on ebay for a few dollars, just bring them to a local machine shop, and wave a 20 at the man. He'll use either a mill and boring head or a lathe. Any other method is a compromise, risky, and will yield poorer results.




Starting with no tools at all, a reasonably handy person might buy a hand drill and appropriate bit, a hand jig saw and a few fine-tooth blades, a fine cut half round file, and a C-clamp to do it cheaper than having just one cut by a professional machinist. Cutting by hand is neater than using a Dremel tool. Dremel does include a circle cutter in their kit, but it may be for 4" or larger holes. Perhaps one could be improvised for smaller holes in lens boards.

[Jim Jones]

Newer speed graphics (and crowns) use a slightly smaller metal board with curved edges that form part of a light trap.

Flat aluminum works well for these later Graphic boards, especially if backed up with a light trap which can be hobby store foam.

[Leigh]

The bearing surface of a shutter retaining ring is quite narrow. Tthe hole needs to be accurately sized and round in order to prevent light leaks.

The 'professional' way to do it is with a boring bar.

It can be used with a boring head or a rotary table on a vertical mill, or by itself on a lathe with the board mounted on a faceplate. I prefer to use a boring head + bar on a Bridgeport vertical mill, although I have all of the tools and machines I mentioned. The head is easier to set up for correct size.

Boring bars have the advantages of cutting the metal without stressing it, and producing a very accurate and completely round hole, so the shutter fits properly.

You might be able to use a boring head + bar in a drill press, but be sure it's a heavy-duty machine capable of taking some stress.

Hole saws produce very ragged holes. A Dremel or other rotary grinder is even worse.

If you can scribe an accurate circle at the desired diameter, and are willing to invest some time and elbow grease, a satisfactory job can be done with a file.


- Leigh

[BrianShaw]

Does it make any sense to purchase or are there simpler ways of cutting holes in the lens boards?

I am currently giving my boards to a local machine shop that waterjets them for me.....and that costs me $35 per board. Add the cost of the board and I am already at $55.

I suppose there are a number of different right ways and a number of different wrong ways.

My advise to you is to pay the money -- $55 really isn't that much to make sure the hole is cut clean and sized right.

[Jfnphotography]

With a drill press, one can clamp the lens board to a layer of wood on the press and use a fly cutter or circle cutter http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...5X-_-100659792.
This is great for wood, but with metal you can warp the board if your not careful.

[Jim Jones]

This is great for wood, but with metal you can warp the board if your not careful.

True. The bit should be sharp and fed very slowly into the lens board. The lens board should be held tightly down. Any play anywhere is the entire system can aggrevate problems. Be careful, take it slow, and it should work.

[Chauncey Walden]

It's just a hole and it neither has to be especially exact or even smooth. As long as the threaded shank fits through and the flange or retaining ring covers the gaps, you are good to go. This and a file are all you really need:
http://www.amazon.com/Professional-Quality-Adjustable-Jewelers-Frame/dp/B00313Q46M and some patience, of course.

[psychoanalyst]

All,

Thanks for all the great piece of advice. I have a lot to think about. I never thought about the metal warping issue and given that (shamefully I admit) I have no metal working experience, I am going to stick for a pro job right now.

When I have more money to burn (when I finally start my job), I think I will start working on metal cutting since that can come very handy long term for LF work.

thanks.

Avi

[Jerry Bodine]

I'd steer clear of using one except on a drill press with very sturdy clamping. With the slightest misalignment and/or when they finally break through the piece they tend to get stuck. This will often either fling the piece ...

Gotta tell this story. I once called on an expert machinist, who worked for the same large company as I did, and was happy to do work I needed free of charge in the basement of his home. I had an undrilled Sinar aluminum board (small centering hole only) that I needed to have a lens hole cut. He put the board in his lathe and proceeds to cut the hole, then stops cutting just before breakthrough and takes his pinky and taps very lightly on the disk, which falls out with a "plink" leaving a clean edge on the hole. I was flabbergasted and asked how he knew when to stop cutting. He said, "I can tell by the cutting sound. Each kind of metal has its own sound." Talk about the value of experience.

[Leigh]

There is a very good tool designed for exactly this purpose that I should have mentioned, since I have one.

It's called a 'trepanning tool'. It looks much like a fly cutter, but it's a very different design, using a 'drag cut' geometry that avoids the errors and instabilities of the fly cutter.

The origional is Val-Cut, made in Switzerland. It's also sold by SPI under their brand.

These things make beautiful holes in metal. Not designed for wood at all.

- Leigh

[Harold_4074]

The classic method ("classic" meaning as practiced in a farm workshop 50 years ago...) is to scribe a circle just slightly smaller than the required final diameter, drill a series of nearly overlapping holes (1/8 inch or so in diameter) just inside the circle. Nip out the thin webs between the holes with wire cutters, and then use half-round files of increasing fineness to enlarge the hole until the lens just fits through. The resulting hole may not be perfectly on center, and may have a bit of runout in spots, but unless you are off by more than a sixteenth or so, it won't matter.

Over the years, I must have done a dozen or more like this, and still prefer it to a fly cutter if the board is not easily replaceable. I have also dismounted a handful of old lenses, and most of them had been mounted by this method (the wide flanges make the hole size and shape very non-critical).

Of course, when I had access to a numerically controlled milling machine it was a different story :)

[domaz]

You've got to be joking. A jig saw?

If you have the boards already or find them on ebay for a few dollars, just bring them to a local machine shop, and wave a 20 at the man. He'll use either a mill and boring head or a lathe. Any other method is a compromise, risky, and will yield poorer results.

I use a jig saw and a hole saw to cut aluminum boards for my Gowland which uses a non-standard lensboard size. My boards aren't warped and all work fine. I just spray paint them black when I'm done. No problem with the paint coming off and I never used any exotic aircraft grade primers or paints.

This is a case where you can make the job as simple or as complicated as you want IMO. If you are worried about 1/10th of a mm precision go to a machine shop, if you just want it to work hack something up yourself and be happy.

[Michael E]

This is a case where you can make the job as simple or as complicated as you want IMO.

Just for a quick trial or for lenses I hardly ever use, I cut lens boards out of matting board. I use a box cutter and some sand paper to clean the edges. Matting board has the added benefit that lenses without flange can simply be screwed into the rag. If the board has the right thickness and fits well into the camera, it is surprisingly sturdy. I can choose black stock or spraypaint it black. So much for low tec.

Michael

[Chauncey Walden]

There may be some disconnect on terminology re "jig saw". In my youth what we generally called a jig saw is now called a scroll saw and what we called a sabre saw is now a jig saw. I have cut many, many boards with a Dremel "jig saw" now called a scroll saw. Now I cut most of them, including aluminum boards, with one of these in a drill press:
http://www.nextag.com/1-Inch-To-6-524646714/prices-html

[eddie]

i put the lens board on the table. add screws to the outside of the board. two per corner (to keep it from spinning) 8 total. then i drill the hole with a hole saw on my drill. simple as pie.

[matthew blais]

I used a circular (adjustable) hole cutter on my technika boards...Costs about $10 and will adjust up to 4"

[Jeffrey Sipress]

There is a very good tool designed for exactly this purpose that I should have mentioned, since I have one. It's called a 'trepanning tool'. It looks much like a fly cutter, but it's a very different design, using a 'drag cut' geometry that avoids the errors and instabilities of the fly cutter. The origional is Val-Cut, made in Switzerland. It's also sold by SPI under their brand. These things make beautiful holes in metal. Not designed for wood at all.- Leigh

Trepanning tools work well only if you are experienced and have a proper machine to use it on. If not, they are very dangerous and scary! While it's possible to use one on a drill press, you really need a mill or lathe. Knowledge of feed and speed as well as coolant is essential. When the cutting tool (never referred to as a 'bit'!) breaks and flies across the room, you need to keep your belly far away.....

BTW, I've worked in machine shops for nearly 40 years and have owned a high precision CNC shop for 25 years.

[E. von Hoegh]

I use the adjustable circle cutter for wood, and a lathe with 4 jaw chuck for metal.
Trepanning a hole in a lensboard a bit much, I think.

I've scribed, sawed, and filed holes in metal boards, and drilled, carved, and rasped holes in wooden boards, and done it well enough that no-one from the Linhof or Deardorff companies would scoff at the work. But I much prefer to use the correct tools whenever they are available.

[Leigh]

Trepanning tools work well only if you are experienced and have a proper machine to use it on. If not, they are very dangerous and scary!
All tools are dangerous if used improperly.

Anyone who attempts a task for which they're not appropriately trained and equipped deserves what he gets.

I use a Bridgeport or a Monarch 10ee, depending on which is free when I need to do the work.

- Leigh

p.s. T&D Maker for 45 years

[Bob Salomon]

There is a very good tool designed for exactly this purpose that I should have mentioned, since I have one.

It's called a 'trepanning tool'. It looks much like a fly cutter, but it's a very different design, using a 'drag cut' geometry that avoids the errors and instabilities of the fly cutter.

The origional is Val-Cut, made in Switzerland. It's also sold by SPI under their brand.

These things make beautiful holes in metal. Not designed for wood at all.

- Leigh

That thing is $150.00 at SPI. How many holes does he want to make? A machinest is going to probably be cheaper not to mention any ruined boards during the learning curve or medical bills from cuts or impacts.

[E. von Hoegh]

Not to mention a few thou. for the mill to mount the $150 tool on....

[unixrevolution]

Not to mention a few thou. for the mill to mount the $150 tool on....

Not to mention a few tens of thousands for a shop to put it in!

In my one-and-only-one tryst with mounting a lens in a board not designed for it, I opened up the hole with the dremel method. With the board clamped securely, I carefully measured and marked my hole, opened it up with a dremel with a grinding stone, and finished it with a machinist's file, then sanded with some 300-grit just to make sure it was smooth. Worked very well, too. Even though I was decidedly in a hurry to try out my 4x5, I took my time on the actual operation and it came out beautifully.

The only real problem is that the metal for the Omega lens board I had was extremely soft, so my dremel's grinding stone got clogged at points and I had to switch. Eventually the build up got heavy enough to throw itself off the stone, which while exciting isn't exactly what I'd call ideal for safety purposes.

I'll throw this little classic line from Norm Abrams on top of anything else you may get from my story:

"Remember to read, understand, and follow all the instructions that come with your power tools. Knowing how to use your tools properly greatly decreases your risk of personal injury. And remember, there's no more important safety rule than to wear these, safety glasses."

[Scott Walker]

Amazing, the OP was wanting to cut lens boards himself for less than the $35.00 it is currently costing him......and there is a discussion about trepanning tools that are in themselves very costly, non adjustable for different size shutters, and require a very expensive machine to attach them to, and beyond that, not even designed for the job at hand. :confused:

Personally I think a metal cutting laser would be the best option......a few hundred thousand boards down the road he could probably get the per unit cost down to under 5 bucks a board :rolleyes: and be the only one on the block with a laser in the basement. :cool:

[domaz]

"Remember to read, understand, and follow all the instructions that come with your power tools. Knowing how to use your tools properly greatly decreases your risk of personal injury. And remember, there's no more important safety rule than to wear these, safety glasses."

Always always wear safety glasses with a Dremel. Things got flying everywhere all the time with those things. Cutting wheels explode as a matter of rountine. Even carving a pumpkin with one can be dangerous to your eyes.

[Jay DeFehr]

I'm glad I didn't read this thread before I drilled my own lensboards; I'd have been terrified! My method was very lo-tech, but worked perfectly. The first thing I did, lacking a machinist's vice, was to prepare a chunk of MDF by tracing my lensboard and cutting in a recess into which the board fit, so that the rear face of my lensbaord was flush against the surface of the MDF board, and which prevented the lensboard from rotating during cutting. Then I used a cheapo flycutter with a portable drill in one of those cheapo drill press accessories for hand drills. I kept the cutting speed VERY slow, and oiled generously. After I got everything set up, I drilled 4 boards in about 15 minutes- no warping, oblongs, or light leaks. I didn't know it was supposed to be difficult/complicated.

[E. von Hoegh]

I'm glad I didn't read this thread before I drilled my own lensboards; I'd have been terrified! My method was very lo-tech, but worked perfectly. The first thing I did, lacking a machinist's vice, was to prepare a chunk of MDF by tracing my lensboard and cutting in a recess into which the board fit, so that the rear face of my lensbaord was flush against the surface of the MDF board, and which prevented the lensboard from rotating during cutting. Then I used a cheapo flycutter with a portable drill in one of those cheapo drill press accessories for hand drills. I kept the cutting speed VERY slow, and oiled generously. After I got everything set up, I drilled 4 boards in about 15 minutes- no warping, oblongs, or light leaks. I didn't know it was supposed to be difficult/complicated.

And therefore it wasn't.:)

Tetrapyloctomy and potiosection are very popular here.;)

[Jay DeFehr]

And therefore it wasn't.:)

Tetrapyloctomy and potiosection are very popular here.;)

Well, I guess removing a circle from a square could be seen as deconstruction.;)

[Harold_4074]

Well, I guess removing a circle from a square could be seen as deconstruction.

Not to mention irrational :)

Incidentally, to those who use Dremel tools on aluminum lensboards: the little sanding drums work much better than stones (which tend to load up) or burrs (which have too small a radius for good control). Also, keeping the axis of the tool tilted slightly throws the grindings away from the "track" on the drum and helps to prevent loading. Depending on the alloy, a lubricant such as soap, wax, or light oil may help. (Avoid anything readily flammable---Dremel tools have brush-type motors which naturally spark.)

[Roger Thoms]

The classic method ("classic" meaning as practiced in a farm workshop 50 years ago...) is to scribe a circle just slightly smaller than the required final diameter, drill a series of nearly overlapping holes (1/8 inch or so in diameter) just inside the circle. Nip out the thin webs between the holes with wire cutters, and then use half-round files of increasing fineness to enlarge the hole until the lens just fits through. The resulting hole may not be perfectly on center, and may have a bit of runout in spots, but unless you are off by more than a sixteenth or so, it won't matter.

Over the years, I must have done a dozen or more like this, and still prefer it to a fly cutter if the board is not easily replaceable. I have also dismounted a handful of old lenses, and most of them had been mounted by this method (the wide flanges make the hole size and shape very non-critical).

Of course, when I had access to a numerically controlled milling machine it was a different story :)

Yep, this method works great, as I have proved to my self many times. I have also used a jewelers frame saw instead of drilling a series of holes. I also on occasion give boards to a friend to bore on his lathe, then argue over the price. Seems he wants to charge to little and I want to pay to much.

Roger

[E. von Hoegh]

Well, I guess removing a circle from a square could be seen as deconstruction.

Not to mention irrational :)

Incidentally, to those who use Dremel tools on aluminum lensboards: the little sanding drums work much better than stones (which tend to load up) or burrs (which have too small a radius for good control). Also, keeping the axis of the tool tilted slightly throws the grindings away from the "track" on the drum and helps to prevent loading. Depending on the alloy, a lubricant such as soap, wax, or light oil may help. (Avoid anything readily flammable---Dremel tools have brush-type motors which naturally spark.)

And for files that load up, as new ones usually do, rubbing with chalk works wonders.

[DrTang]

There is a very good tool designed for exactly this purpose that I should have mentioned, since I have one.

It's called a 'trepanning tool'. It looks much like a fly cutter, but it's a very different design, using a 'drag cut' geometry that avoids the errors and instabilities of the fly cutter.

The origional is Val-Cut, made in Switzerland. It's also sold by SPI under their brand.

These things make beautiful holes in metal. Not designed for wood at all.

- Leigh


hahahahahah - oh man


and me and my drill some holes in the board, coping saw from one to the other to cut out the center..and then file it like crazy while watching tv



hahahah