The price of paper is UP!

[SamReeves]

I just peed my pants.

Even the cheapo Arista papers have been jacked up in price. 8x10 Glossy fiber base is up to $72 per box, and the Ilford is over $100 per box at Freestyle.

I think I'm going to be printing lots of RC semi-matte for now on. Damn you digital.

[Oren Grad]

At both B&H and Adorama, Ilford MGIVFB is $80.70 for a box of 100 8x10 glossy. At B&H, if you go for the box of 250 sheets for $194, you get free shipping too. Adorama also offers its own private label variable contrast FB paper at $48.95 for a box of 100 8x10.

Freestyle provides an important service in making available many products that are otherwise hard to find and more generally in keeping a large stock of traditional materials. But they're not competing on price.

[Greg Blank]

High prices should encourage two things:
Becoming a bettter printer.
& Learning not to waste Paper.
Digital influence aside , How much paper and chemicals do you
think are wasted each year? Probably tractor trailer loads.

[Kirk Gittings]

IMHO how much paper you "waste" has nothing to do with "becoming a better printer". Perhaps it has something to do with becoming a more efficient printer.;)

[Roger Cole]

The best printers I know "waste" a lot of paper.

This is somewhat old news, but some may not have checked prices in a while. I try to support Freestyle if the difference is not too great, but will go elsewhere when the difference crosses some ill defined but "I know it when I see it" level of difference.

This has much more to do with the price of silver than it does with digital. It's true that prices would increase from lower demand in this case, the reverse of classic supply and demand but the demand being so much lower than it used to be many economies of scale disappear. But in this case, the demand can't have really gone down that much in the past year. The price of silver, on the other hand, HAS gone up that much in the past year.

My "issue" with B&H is that I can't figure out their shipping. Generally I am not available to sign for shipments. My fiance works days and I work most nights and sleep all day most days (today is an exception.) They list a "super saver" in the information that is not signature required but they don't list that in the shipping choices! UPS ground is the cheapest but not if I can't get my package - I don't even know where the pickup location is. The info lists stuff about UPS Mail Inovations but it isn't clear which, if any, of the UPS choices use that. I've just chosen US Mail on the one recent occasion I've ordered from them because the post office is close in any event (but no signature was required.) But US Mail costs more than the UPS Ground and isn't listed in their information.

Their shipping info is an impenetrable mess to try to sort out, IMNSHO.

[Donald Miller]

I wonder if this is truly the result of digital. Good digital papers are just as expensive as silver papers...in some cases far more expensive than silver papers.

The price of silver is up markedly in the last year as a result of a flight to safety away from fiat currencies. That is a result of world economic conditions.

[Roger Cole]

I wonder if this is truly the result of digital. Good digital papers are just as expensive as silver papers...in some cases far more expensive than silver papers.

The price of silver is up markedly in the last year as a result of a flight to safety away from fiat currencies. That is a result of world economic conditions.

Not only are the papers for digital printing often as expensive or more so, the ink is far more expensive.

This is only somewhat compensated for by the fact that, once a good calibration and workflow are established, a good digital printer should be able to waste little, not printing test images and such until the image is right. This seems to rarely work quite that well in practice.

[SamReeves]

At both B&H and Adorama, Ilford MGIVFB is $80.70 for a box of 100 8x10 glossy. At B&H, if you go for the box of 250 sheets for $194, you get free shipping too. Adorama also offers its own private label variable contrast FB paper at $48.95 for a box of 100 8x10.

Freestyle provides an important service in making available many products that are otherwise hard to find and more generally in keeping a large stock of traditional materials. But they're not competing on price.

Forgot about Adorama's own private label. They look like the winner for now.

I do agree on Freestyle. They got the cheapest film that I know of, and I'll still support them on that.


The best printers I know "waste" a lot of paper.

Yup, in the real world it takes usually two to four sheets before you call it a final print.


This has much more to do with the price of silver than it does with digital. It's true that prices would increase from lower demand in this case, the reverse of classic supply and demand but the demand being so much lower than it used to be many economies of scale disappear. But in this case, the demand can't have really gone down that much in the past year. The price of silver, on the other hand, HAS gone up that much in the past year..

My issue is it just the price of silver, or is it overall inflation? Just in the last week, I've noticed increases in orange juice, cookies, and of course gasoline. The incomes aren't keeping up either.

I think we're all going to have to be "efficient" printers in the near future. :(

[Roger Cole]

My issue is it just the price of silver, or is it overall inflation? Just in the last week, I've noticed increases in orange juice, cookies, and of course gasoline. The incomes aren't keeping up either.

I think we're all going to have to be "efficient" printers in the near future. :(

This is OT, but food inflation right now is mainly a fallout from energy prices and energy policy. As long as we don't go anywhere and don't eat, and don't use silver based photo materials, we should be fine. :rolleyes:

[Ole Tjugen]

The economy has crashed, which drives the price of silver up and the value of the dollar down. Which again leads to an even larger increase in the price of international commodities priced on USD, like e.g. oil. One way to say that is that the trust in the US economy is at an all-time low, at least until the election. After that it could get a little worse, or alternatively much much worse.

Anyway, international prices are going up, US domestic prices are going a little more up, and (US) wages are not increasing enough to compensate. For those who HAVE jobs.

[al olson]

. . .
I think we're all going to have to be "efficient" printers in the near future. :(

I believe it was in his autobiography where Adams said that it took him four or five prints before he got it right. I have been trying to better that mark, but seldom succeed.

[Roger Cole]

For a FIRST good print from a negative, I most often do worse than that too. When I do equal or "better" it from the point of view of paper used, I'm sure I'm running into limitations in my printing ability. Adams had so many tools in his toobox, as it were, he could keep trying things, not to mention seeing variations that escape the rest of us.

OTOH, once I've made that print, I can make more without much waste. Going to a different print size usually scales in between - it will take more than one sheet, but not as many as the initial print.

[Greg Blank]

Note: I said "encouraged" :) It will certainly prod one to be more efficient!


IMHO how much paper you "waste" has nothing to do with "becoming a better printer". Perhaps it has something to do with becoming a more efficient printer.;)

[Greg Blank]

I don't feel wasteful technique as being especially good, though one can have the skills to make beautiful work regardless. It usually takes me two prints to make a good one, but maybe a "few" exposure strips. If I use a full three sheets, I feel wasteful.


The best printers I know "waste" a lot of paper.

[Greg Blank]

I think the price is slimly related to the enonomy, now that Kodak does not make paper Ilford and the others can raise the price how they see fit. Importation costs and customs fees have an effect, but this time of year school is in and is this the first year that Kodak has not offered B&W papers and the demand is higher? Silver is not that important as a stable currency, Gold and Platinum yes, silver and copper no. By waste I was refering to prints that are fixed but then discarded. A lot of that silver most likely is never sorted out for refining and simply goes to the landfill. I have been watching the jobs market, there are more availbale than meets the eye, however they are technical positions and the expectation is that you have a multitude of experience and schooling and then they want you to accept some ridiculous low ball pay amount stated upfront in the employment ad.

[Greg Blank]

If you can get them, using the same emulsion for all sizes, really is the way to go. When I tested Forte and had access to the stock of Forte Paper I could buy the same emulsion for all my sizes rather easily.


For a FIRST good print from a negative, I most often do worse than that too. When I do equal or "better" it from the point of view of paper used, I'm sure I'm running into limitations in my printing ability. Adams had so many tools in his toobox, as it were, he could keep trying things, not to mention seeing variations that escape the rest of us.

OTOH, once I've made that print, I can make more without much waste. Going to a different print size usually scales in between - it will take more than one sheet, but not as many as the initial print.

[Math]

About wasting paper and being a good printer; The best printer I've seen at work does the prints for Klein, Koudelka, new Cartier-Bresson prints, and I've seen him make spot-on, perfectly dodged and burned prints in two or three sheets. :o Makes you feel incompetent.

[bob carnie]

I print professionally silver gelatin prints using enlarger.

Negatives that I have never printed before usually takes me approx 8 sheets, give or take two or three.
After I have printed the negative once or twice it takes me approx 5 sheets, give or take one or two.
I usually have two variations to choose from.

with 20 x24 Ilford warmtone around $8.00 a sheet = $64 per image hard costs plus chemistry, I am lucky if I can print 4 - 6 in a good day with an assistant.

Inkjet prints , basically all the work is done on screen with one test print and maybe one or two adjustments.. IMO Silver Gelatin wet prints are much more expensive to make than inkjet.

[Jim Noel]

Not only is the price of silver up, the dollar is in the tank. Look up the value of the dollar against the euro or British pound. Te last time I looked 1 euro = $1.485!

[Robert Brummitt]

Back in the 80's, I remember the two Brothers who were buy all the silver in the market. Which jacked up the stock market selling price for silver, which jacked up the price for silver related products like photo paper. It even effected color paper where I worked.
But, I'm thinking that this is somewhat the same and costs of producing and shipping and the lowering of the dollar all plays into the prices today. The lab that I worked for then had us printers to work very carefully. We made 5x7 tests prints before enlarging to the bigger print and we had one person QC the work before we made the final print.
When the silver strike finally came down (the two brothers were arrested for trying to cornering the market) the price of papers came down.
But, my bosses Liked the small test print work idea and they got two large silver reclaiming machine for our blix.
We got small silver bars for atta-boys when jobs were done right. I stll have mine. Hmmm, what's the price of silver now? :) :) :)

[Robert Brummitt]

I had to look up the name of the two brother's. Here is what I found.

"Wealthy brothers Nelson and William Hunt acquired a massive position in silver in an attempt to corner the market. Prices skyrocketed on the news and silver went from $11 per ounce in late 1979 to $48.70 in early 1980. Regulators did not take kindly to market manipulation and margin requirements on commodities were dramatically raised. The Hunt brothers' ill conceived attempt to drive silver prices higher collapsed along with their net worth. Silver prices plunged to less than $11 per ounce within two months. The last great silver "bull market" lasted less than six months, driven not by fundamental demand but rather by heavily leveraged speculators."

I figure this time around it's the general populace that is buy and hoarding metals. What is the price of gold these days?

[jeroldharter]

I understand the point about becoming a more efficient printer to reduce personal costs.

But generally speaking, using less of a product does not drive its cost down. Using less paper will increase its price.

[Oren Grad]

FWIW, in August 1980 B&H was advertising 100 sheets of Ilford 8x10 doubleweight FB paper for $38.00. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics' CPI calculator, this is approximately equivalent to $104.19 today. So by that measure at least, even after recent increases, paper is still cheaper than it used to be in the early days of my own darkroom experience.

[Greg Blank]

Varies from day to day. Very unpredictable. I have seen it swing between 1.25 to this 1.48 it will fall again back to 1.30 something. I look at it almost everyday now.


Not only is the price of silver up, the dollar is in the tank. Look up the value of the dollar against the euro or British pound. Te last time I looked 1 euro = $1.485!

[Greg Blank]

Until the silver,gasoline,oxygen,drinkable water etc,etc,etc runs out.


I understand the point about becoming a more efficient printer to reduce personal costs.

But generally speaking, using less of a product does not drive its cost down. Using less paper will increase its price.

[Roger Cole]

Until the silver,gasoline,oxygen,drinkable water etc,etc,etc runs out.

Gee Greg, bundle of joy, aren't we? ;)

Anyway, using less paper might drive up the price, opposite to usual supply and demand and in this case due to reducing economy of scale for the suppliers, but it will save money for the individual printer.

I sympathize totally. When the Hunt Brothers drove the price up I was a junior in high school and it impacted my new photography hobby greatly. I made test strips on tiny, narrow strips and did everything I could to use less paper and find the cheapest paper. Doing things like this may save paper but often wastes time. A larger test strip/sheet will tell you more than a smaller one. Whether time or money is more important to you depends on circumstances. The amount of each available often seem to be in inverse proportion to the other. :(

[Robert Brummitt]

Gee Greg, bundle of joy, aren't we? ;)

I sympathize totally. When the Hunt Brothers drove the price up I was a junior in high school and it impacted my new photography hobby greatly. :(

Junior in High School! Egads, am I showing my age here!!

How about the cost of film? Has it gone up as well? I have a fridge fill with my film so I haven't bought any B&W for years. Color film that goes up at the drop of a hat.

A Junior in High School?! Really!

[Roger Cole]

Junior in High School! Egads, am I showing my age here!!

How about the cost of film? Has it gone up as well? I have a fridge fill with my film so I haven't bought any B&W for years. Color film that goes up at the drop of a hat.

A Junior in High School?! Really!

Well I'm 48 now (as of last week) - not exactly a youngster or oldster I guess.

SOME black and white film has gone up a lot, Ilford in particular. The variation from type to type seems to be a lot higher in 120 and 35mm than in 4x5, all of which seems comparably priced (about $1.20-$1.30 a sheet for 4x5 right now.)

8x10 is getting ridiculous. Tri-X is $6 a sheet ($59.99 for ten sheets) from Freestyle, though probably available for less elsewhere. Most Ilford is about $4.50 a sheet for 8x10. This is one reason Freestyle's rebranded Foma is popular - in 8x10 Arista brand Foma 100 is $2.80 a sheet right now.

Prices taken from Freestyle's web site during posting.

[Donald Miller]

I had to look up the name of the two brother's. Here is what I found...

I figure this time around it's the general populace that is buy and hoarding metals. What is the price of gold these days?


The price of gold is in some part due to individuals buying and holding gold but that is not the entire picture. Central banks are increasing their holdings in the precious metal for obvious reasons. India and China are also large purchasers of gold for jewelry...even at today's prices.

I bought my gold in the form of pure (99.9% ) gold coinage (Vienna Philharmonics and Canadian Maple Leafs) at $1,000 per ounce. These same coins closed this week at $1950 per ounce. Silver has almost tripled from the time that I bought my coins (2 years - silver Maple Leafs). The outlook is for a continuation of the eleven year bull market.

[Greg Blank]

Holy crap! the Euro lost half its value today.

[Greg Blank]

Oops looked at that wrong :D

[Donald Miller]

Holy crap! the Euro lost half its value today.

No surprise there. They are having some major economic problems in the EU. Greece may default this weekend...Greek bond's dividends increased which is an indication of a rush for the exits.

[gevalia]

The best printers I know "waste" a lot of paper.

This is somewhat old news, but some may not have checked prices in a while. I try to support Freestyle if the difference is not too great, but will go elsewhere when the difference crosses some ill defined but "I know it when I see it" level of difference.

This has much more to do with the price of silver than it does with digital. It's true that prices would increase from lower demand in this case, the reverse of classic supply and demand but the demand being so much lower than it used to be many economies of scale disappear. But in this case, the demand can't have really gone down that much in the past year. The price of silver, on the other hand, HAS gone up that much in the past year.

My "issue" with B&H is that I can't figure out their shipping. Generally I am not available to sign for shipments. My fiance works days and I work most nights and sleep all day most days (today is an exception.) They list a "super saver" in the information that is not signature required but they don't list that in the shipping choices! UPS ground is the cheapest but not if I can't get my package - I don't even know where the pickup location is. The info lists stuff about UPS Mail Inovations but it isn't clear which, if any, of the UPS choices use that. I've just chosen US Mail on the one recent occasion I've ordered from them because the post office is close in any event (but no signature was required.) But US Mail costs more than the UPS Ground and isn't listed in their information.

Their shipping info is an impenetrable mess to try to sort out, IMNSHO.

Roger,
Have a talk with your mailroom guys. In the past UPS never left boxes at the door (which has changed now because of a cool UPS driver) so the guys at work allowed me to ship there. Without that, it was a major hassle and caused me to not use UPS for a few years. Now FexEx is my problem so I actually prefer UPS.

FYI: From what the UPS driver told me, there is a rule against leaving boxes in an apartment complex. It isn't discretionary, it's a rule so they could not. Now the usual driver is provided access to secure building.

Ron