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ghe67
30-Aug-2011, 04:28
HI all,
I'm looking for a very good quality lens, 250mm focal to use for portraits.
I will mount the lens on a 250mm cone/helical mount for a 4x5 camera (Dayi), which are your suggestion for a very sharp lens?
Not too expensive, Rodenstock, Scheneider, Fuji, or what?
Thanks for your help.
Giorgio

Michael Graves
30-Aug-2011, 04:59
Since this lens is primarily targeted for portraiture, then a huge image circle is not critical. Any of the aforementioned would be suitable. Personally, I'd go with a 10" Commercial Ektar for that purpose. Very nice lens with creamy tones.

ghe67
30-Aug-2011, 05:18
HI Michael,
thanks for your advice.
I'm interested in this lens, but the conditions seems not so good from the pics, what do you think about it?
http://www.ebay.it/itm/220841549245?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
Thanks.

redu
30-Aug-2011, 05:40
Dear Giorgio,

Not knowing whether you already own a Dayi 4x5 or not, I would like comment a little bit on your plans.

Regarding portrait work i would always love to have tilts on my camera. Assuming a slanted angle of view, (which is mostly the case if you are not shooting for passport etc) it is really difficult to place both eyes in the same focus plane especially when shooting wide apertures to emphasise background bokeh. So being able to tilt the lens a little bit helps a lot.

Regarding the lens you are interested, I don't think it is one of the sharpest lenses of that focal length. It is not coated, a tele design (shorter bellows draw but big rear cell compared to non tele design) so you should check the rear cell dimension to see if it fits the helical cone that you mention.

ghe67
30-Aug-2011, 05:49
HI Redu,
thanks.
I know what you are saying but I have another 4x5 camera with bellow and tilt&shift movement so no problem.
My interest is primary in point&shoot camera, I'm building one and the Dayi is a good compromise.
Yes, the rear cell dimension needs to check carefully, so I think I will choose the lens once bought the helical mount.
Other advices about good lenses?
Thanks
Giorgio

Ari
30-Aug-2011, 06:01
The Fuji 250mm f6.3 is smaller, lighter than its f6.7 counterpart, and is a modern multi-coated lens in a Copal 1 shutter.
They're selling for cheap these days, because everyone wants the f6.7 and its gigantic image circle.

Michael Graves
30-Aug-2011, 06:47
HI Michael,
thanks for your advice.
I'm interested in this lens, but the conditions seems not so good from the pics, what do you think about it?
http://www.ebay.it/itm/220841549245?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
Thanks.

I agree with Redu that this is not a prime choice if maximum sharpness is the goal. I, on the other hand question sharpness as the defining quality for a lens used for portraiture. Seeing every hair growing out of each mole on Cousin Izzy's face is not how I want to remember him by. Still, diffusion techniques can make a sharp lens fuzzy. Nothing can make a fuzzy lens sharp. I happen to have one of those Tele-Xenar lenses in my Speed Graphic collection. It isn't bad, but it doesn't yeild as sharp an image as several of my other lenses. For 4x5 portraiture, I nearly always pull out my 10" Ektar.

Scott Davis
30-Aug-2011, 07:08
Another vote for the 10" Commercial Ektar. It's also small enough to fit in a Copal 3, I think, so you could have it re-mounted in a modern shutter with a PC flash connection instead of the bipost flash. You could also look around for a 240mm Heliar, although those are pretty big and when you can find them in a shutter it's a Compound #4.

BrianShaw
30-Aug-2011, 07:10
I concur with the Commercial Ektar advise (although I prefer a 12 inch).

Also consider a soft focus lens, like the Fujinon SF 250. Capable of producing both sharp and soft (in varying degrees of softness) images. Can be found relatively affordably too.

Ken Lee
30-Aug-2011, 08:30
I agree with you that 250 is a great length for portraits on 4x5 film.

I use a 250mm Carl Zeiss Jena Tessar. It opens to f/4.5, and gets real sharp by f/8, where it still manages to give lovely blur in the distance. It has an almost circular diaphragm. For whatever reason, it has a "creamy" rendition of tones (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/chey2011.html). It's my favorite lens for taking photos of people (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/29.html).

drew.saunders
30-Aug-2011, 09:32
I'd also suggest the 250/6.3 Fuji. Here's a portrait I made with it wide open:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/drew_saunders/5048608803
And here, stopped down to f/11: http://www.flickr.com/photos/drew_saunders/5049228416

For a "point-n-shoot," you might consider a 240 f/9, such as the Fuji or G-claron if you can get one. Although f/9 might not be considered an ideal portrait aperture, if you do the dof calculations, at 48" working distance (a reasonably tight head shot), according to http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html, you have 1.47" total DOF. For a "half body" shot of 96" distance, you get 6.59" of DOF, which is more or less tip of the nose to back of the ear for a straight-on shot.

ashlee52
30-Aug-2011, 10:32
The Tele Xenar is a telephoto which means that it comes into focus when it is closer to the film than a regular lens. A typical 250mm lens is focused on infinity when it is 250mm from the film plane. A telephoto might only need to be 150mm from the film. The downside of this is that the focusing cones used for a normal 250mm lens would not be calibrated properly for a telephoto design.

Incidently, another alternative for simplified shooting would be to use a Crown Graphic with its coupled rangefinder and easily available viewer inserts.

I love my Ektars.

E. von Hoegh
30-Aug-2011, 10:43
How about a 9 1/2" Artar? It fits the criterion of very sharp, and can be front mounted on a shutter. I've seen them pretty cheap.

A 240 convertable Symmar is plenty sharp, and pretty cheap.

Michael E
30-Aug-2011, 10:58
I use a 250mm Carl Zeiss Jena Tessar. It opens to f/4.5, and gets real sharp by f/8, where it still manages to give lovely blur in the distance. It has an almost circular diaphragm. For whatever reason, it has a "creamy" rendition of tones (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/chey2011.html). It's my favorite lens for taking photos of people (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/29.html).

If you are interested, I have one of those for sale. Like all GDR era Zeiss lenses, it is mounted in a barrel.

Michael

redu
30-Aug-2011, 11:17
Hey look at this one (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Voigtlander-Apo-Lanthar-4-5-300mm-lens-Ilex-5-/110733923630?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item19c841952e#ht_4640wt_1396) or this one (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Voigtlander-Apo-Lanthar-4-5-300-759200-/160559771108?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item25621bade4#ht_3376wt_1396). What is so good about APO lanthars costing as much as gold in their weight? Or let me put it this way what other 300 4.5 lenses can be put in shutter (probably #5..?)

ghe67
30-Aug-2011, 11:28
Hey guys, what a response!
A lot of choice here, also what about this:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/270807722113?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

not a 250mm but very cheap even if the Fotoman helical mount for this focal will be not easy to get.
BY the way, as I'm not interested to focus to infinity, can I use any helical mount with these lenses?
Thanks
Giorgio

Oren Grad
30-Aug-2011, 11:29
I will mount the lens on a 250mm cone/helical mount for a 4x5 camera (Dayi)

What is the maximum extension of the helical mount that you intend to use? Will it allow you to focus close enough for the kinds of portraits you have in mind?

ghe67
30-Aug-2011, 11:37
I don't know the max extension. the Dayi guy told me that the cone for the 250mm lenses it's already fitted with the proper helical mount.
(I can't see how this would be good for all the 250mm lenses with different FPD...)

E. von Hoegh
30-Aug-2011, 11:47
Hey guys, what a response!
A lot of choice here, also what about this:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/270807722113?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

not a 250mm but very cheap even if the Fotoman helical mount for this focal will be not easy to get.
BY the way, as I'm not interested to focus to infinity, can I use any helical mount with these lenses?
Thanks
Giorgio

You'll need a shutter with that one.

Bob Salomon
30-Aug-2011, 11:48
I don't know the max extension. the Dayi guy told me that the cone for the 250mm lenses it's already fitted with the proper helical mount.
(I can't see how this would be good for all the 250mm lenses with different FPD...)

Do you mean FFL? that is the distance from the rear mount surface of the lens to the image plane at infinity.

ghe67
30-Aug-2011, 14:47
Yes, sorry for the mistake, I mean FFL.

Oren Grad
30-Aug-2011, 15:15
I don't know the max extension.

You need to ask. It won't do you much good to end up with a camera that will focus only as close as 4 or 5 meters, which is what I would usually expect for such a long lens on these cameras.

ashlee52
30-Aug-2011, 20:29
By general definition all normal focus 250 mm lenses will have the same 250mm distance from the lens to film plane at infinity focus. In practice because of different designs it will be off by just a bit. The problem is that this distance will be very different for a telephoto design. Thus it is indeed possible that a focusing helical can work for "any normal design 250mm lens", which is not to say that it will work for a telephoto.

Lachlan 717
30-Aug-2011, 20:54
I don't know the max extension. the Dayi guy told me that the cone for the 250mm lenses it's already fitted with the proper helical mount.
(I can't see how this would be good for all the 250mm lenses with different FPD...)

Some of these come with a lockable thread mount. As such, you unscrew a retaining ring and either tread the helical mount further in or further out before locking it I. Place when you tighten the ring back down. This allows variable FFLs as well as calibration of the helical mount.

johnielvis
30-Aug-2011, 20:59
I'd go with a tele arton--get the 270...the tele artons give you the biggest bellows draw bang of any tele I've seen....theres a bunch of 270s on ebay right now I see....I personally use a 360 tele arton---love that lens....such a short back focus distance.

note--helical focus up close will not do anything...when you get a 250 or 270 lens up close...the tiny bit of helical movement will not do much to change the point of focus or the magnification....the closer you get the more bellows draw you will need to "get closer"....helical focus is only good near infinity---don't waste your money with a helical if you're up close---you can verify what I say with calculations....you'll see --just use the lensmakers equation 1/s + 1/d = 1/f......that's all....

oh---tele lenses...if it's 250mm focal length, then the place where the light "comes from" to hit the film plane is 250mm away at infinity---so with a tele lens, this point, instead of being inside the lens, is in FRONT of the lens......it behaves exactly like any other 250mm lens if you consider this point to be the distance to the film...confusingly, a different point, even farther from the camera is where the light seems to "enter" the lens.....long story short, you can use the lensmakers equation with tele lenses if you know where the distances should be measured from.

Struan Gray
30-Aug-2011, 23:40
If you use a tele lens the cone will be too long but the focussing helicoid should be fine. If you don't want infinity focus, the too-long cone may even turn out to be exactly what you need to get a usable range of close focus, but you need to do the math (or test) to make sure.

Cambo made a fixed-length portrait camera for 240 mm lenses. It was designed to work with polaroid film, but has an international (Graflok) back, so will accommodate accessories like Graphmatics. You could fit a helicoid focusser on the front if you wanted to adjust the focal distance. There's one on eBay.de just now:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/4x5-Polaroid-CAMBO-portrait-camera-with-ground-glass-/220843302053

I like the look of the old convertible Symmars for being kind to subjects. The 240 is in an obselete No. 2 shutter though, so it might be too large for modern components from DaYi and the like. It's a compact way of getting f5.6 in a shutter though.

I also like the look of APO-ronars as portrait lenses. I know they are supposed to be too sharp and clinical, but at wider apertures the older single-coated barrel lenses look very pleasing. They're dirt cheap too. You could rig a front shutter, or use a lenscap, low ambient and strobes in a studio. The later, multicoated APO-ronars in shutter are sharper wide open, but still have pleasing bokeh.

I can't get excited about tessars. But that's just me.

johnielvis
31-Aug-2011, 05:07
I've built a few of these things. Best for you if you want to vary the mangnification is to get an old speed or crown or other press camera---this will give you all focus from infinity on down to very close with a tele lens.....play with that...when you find the magnification that you like THEN find out how long of a snoot you'll need...also..then check the back/forth bellows draw equal to what a helical will give you at that magnification--you'll see that it likely does nothing significant....tele lenses are best because they give you the smallest bellows draw= more rigid--best to mock it up first using a press camera or a mono-rail camera...get something adjustable to see what you like first....or get a polaroid bigshot---I love them cameras---they are exactly set up for just what you want to do and can be rigged for electronic flash--already with a polaroid back on it---and CHEAP.

ashlee52
31-Aug-2011, 07:22
Basically you want a large format camera where you don't need much in the way of "moves" but you value the ability to shoot using a viewfinder rather than groundglass. And you need to be able to quickly focus at all reasonable portrait distances. Hard to beat a Crown Graflex for that. (Lest I get thrown off these pages, a Mamiya RB 67 could be a fairly good solution as well).

rdenney
31-Aug-2011, 08:09
About the longest non-telephoto lens that will work on a Crown at portrait distances is a 210 at or 8-1/2", unless you mount the lens on a top-hat board.

But back to lenses and lens design. For portraits that are sharp in the middle, but that have a nice transition to the out-of-focus areas and a reasonably nice rendering in those areas, I prefer a simple tessar design. There are a lot of these in this focal range. The advantage is that their rear cells are usually no wider than the board opening, making them more flexible for mounting in a helical, especially one of those general-purpose helical focus mounts sold on ebay (and I think these are the same as the mounts on the DaYi).

The Kodak Commercial Ektar is probably the king of tessar designs at this focal length, for lenses new enough to be coated. But it mounts in an Ilex or Kodak shutter and might be a challenge to make work for a project like this. The Ilex-Caltar was the replacement in Calumet's branding for the Commercial Ektar when Kodak stopped making them, but it will also be mounted in an Ilex shutter. If that isn't a problem for you, then consider an Ilex Paragon, though I would suggest the 8-1/2" lens, which is larger because of the max aperture (f/4.5) but will still fit in an Ilex No. 4 shutter.

The Fujis will mount in a standard shutter, but I forget which model is based on the tessar.

One option is a 240mm Caltar Type Y, which is a Rodenstock Ysarex. That is a tessar design that is just slow enough (f/6.8, I think) to be mounted in a Copal No. 1 shutter. If you can find one, it will be cheap and I think quite effective in this application, in addition to being probably the easiest to mount of all these except perhaps the appropriate Fuji.

I have an Ilex Paragon at 8-1/2", a Caltar Type Y at 240mm, and an Ilex-Caltar at 12". Obviously, I'm biased to the tessar designs for portrait-length lenses for 4x5.

Tessars perform very well in terms of contrast without being multicoated, by the way. Their fewer elements and air surfaces are an advantage here. But they still provide a vintage look that I like in many situations.

Rick "noting that tessars sharpen up nicely when stopped down" Denney

drew.saunders
31-Aug-2011, 10:06
The Fujis will mount in a standard shutter, but I forget which model is based on the tessar.


Fujinar is Fuji's Tessar. I have the 250/4.7 in Copal 3S. The 250/4.5 is in a different, larger shutter, but is the same lens. It's pretty heavy for a hand-held camera.

Rick A
1-Sep-2011, 04:29
I think the most underrated 255mm lens is the Ilex 10" portronic paragon. These were made for Beatty for their roll film portrait cameras, used for school portraits and such. I have one that, like most, is in barrel. They fit on an Ilex #4 shutter, I use the front cap for a "tophat" shutter. They can be found for under a $100.

Neal Chaves
1-Sep-2011, 07:27
I have made good use of a 250mm 6.7 Fujinon on a 4X5 Crown Graphic set up as a "Big Shot" camera. I use this particular lens on 8X10 as well, but there are many choices already mentioned for 4X5.

Any camera that focuses from the front is difficult to use close up with a long lens because the act of trying to focus changes the lens to subject distance. The press photographers of the 4X5 era worked around this by setting up the Speed or Crown Graphic with a long lens that could be range finder or range light focused accurately in a head and shoulders composition. This set up was later used by Polaroid in the famous "Big Shot" camera. Here are the basics for any Top or Kalart range finder Graphic.

1. Mount the camera on a tripod in front of a head and shoulders sized target.
2. Extend the focus track until the range finder mechanism just disengages. Lock down the track. This is your closest possible range finder focusing distance, about five feet from the back of the camera, and just right for head and shoulders compositions with 150mm to 250mm lenses. Place a witness mark on the track and a corresponding one on the camera bed or focus scale so that you can always set up the same way. With TRF Crowns, you can take the cam right out, or "nose off" the cam with a file at the end of its range.
3. Focus on the target with the RF by moving the camera in and out as with the Polaroid Big Shot.
4. Focus and compose the target on the ground glass with your lens and lock it down on the track at the optimum point. Set infinity stops there, or place witness marks on the track. So now you have tack-sharp focus at head and shoulders distance, but of course your viewfinder will not be accurate.
5. Pull up the front frame finder completely, then push it down in the open mode until it is flush with the top of the front standard. Then set the rear peep sight finder to 15 ft. and... WaLa! see if you're not right in the ball park for a H&S composition.

I have my camera set up for both my 150mm and 250 mm lens with nosed off cams I cut myself. The 150mm gives a nice look and doesn't pull too much bellows. I have used it a lot because it takes only moments to set up from the standard configuration. When I use the 250mm, I add a +0.5 B&W diopter which shortens the bellows and delivers commercially sharp results. A 250mm tele lens would be a good fit.

One nice thing about the Big Shot camera is that on-camera flash to subject distance is always the same, so exposure is always the same with flash. I use a Vivitar 285 on manual with a bounce card that gives me between F8 and F11 with ISO 100 film.

You will be off to the side a bit looking through the open frame finder, so ask you subject to look right into the lens, not at you, when you expose. Have fun!