Why I'm not worried about the demise of film

[cyrus]

Or i should say the supposed demise of film. Because not only do we have many alt processes like wet plate, we also have people coating their own film! http://www.lightfarm.com/

[Ed Kelsey]

You can always ride a horse if cars are too fancy for you.

[darr]

http://www.thelightfarm.com/

[cyrus]

In this case some people were predicted that there would be no more horses(film); horses(film) going extinct. But creative people have a way to get things done! They find way to make horses(film) at home in homes! That is sooo cool.

[Robert Hughes]

Hold on, that doesn't make sense. You can't put a horse in a film holder.

[Drew Wiley]

Lots of people still choose to ride horses. Saddles and cowboy boots are still readily available. The fact that it's technically an obsolete way of getting around didn't extinguish it at all. There is still plenty of film variety to be had, even in large format.
As long as there are enough people who WANT to use film, it will still be available.
But if you want to make your own, fine.

[GPS]

.. There is still plenty of film variety to be had, even in large format.
As long as there are enough people who WANT to use film, it will still be available.
...

Wish it were so... Tried to get 100 rolls of Provia 100 F in 120 format (!) from B&H - they had just a few rolls left. They don't even know when they can re-stock it... So much for their film business. :)

[adam satushek]

I understand why one wouldn't be concerned about the "demise" of film if they shoot b&w, I on the other hand, shoot 4x5 and 8x10 color neg film.....and I have to admit I am concerned

[Drew Wiley]

Had a friend who walked into B&H not long ago to discuss the situation. They've drastically cut back their inventories of film and are pushing all kinds of electronics
more heavily than ever. I still consider them a good source, but temporary shortages
are inevitable. The are numerous other suppliers with better inventories. Except for
my favorite 8X10 film sizes, I can simply walk into our local "camera store" here in town
and buy just about every film I need either color of b&w up through 4x5. They have
three or four freezers chock full of color film, plus black and white on the shelves.
Still seems to be quite a demand around here.

[Lachlan 717]

I would think that digital photography is a better similarly to a horse.

Seems so much that comes out of the back end of the digital horse looks like what comes out if the back of the analogue horse. Just not quite as smelly.

[Drew Wiley]

As far as stench is concerned, it's largely a matter of quantity... Therefore, with digital being so prevalent nowadays, it's logical to say it stinks the most! Likewise,
cars put out a lot more smog nowadays than horses, though they aren't entirely
innocent either (nor am I).

[jayabbas]

Had a friend who walked into B&H not long ago to discuss the situation. They've drastically cut back their inventories of film and are pushing all kinds of electronics
more heavily than ever. I still consider them a good source, but temporary shortages
are inevitable. The are numerous other suppliers with better inventories. Except for
my favorite 8X10 film sizes, I can simply walk into our local "camera store" here in town
and buy just about every film I need either color of b&w up through 4x5. They have
three or four freezers chock full of color film, plus black and white on the shelves.
Still seems to be quite a demand around here.

Indeed you are lucky to have such a "camera store" nearby with an ample stock of film.

[Roger Cole]

Sturgeon's law - 90% of EVERYTHING is crap. There's a lot more digital than film photography these days, and 90% of both is crap.

Actually with film only being used by the relatively serious these days, for the most part, the percentage of crap in film is probably lower (but then you get the crowd who think light leaks and fuzzy plastic lenses are art just because they're unpredictable..) and that has some effect. But the biggest reason most crap is digital is because most imaging is digital now. There's plenty of good digital work too, even if the signal to noise ration (crap to not crap, as it were) is a bit higher than with film - but if it is, it's only a bit.

[cyrus]

I dont diss digital. I just think of it as apples and oranges. No digital photo will ever replace a silver gelatin print or a calotype or an ambrotype precisely because theyre silver gelatin, calotype or ambrotype. That quality alone makes the unique, not better or worse, than a digital print. Similarly an oil painting cannot be replaced by a digital print precisely because it is a fundamentally different medium.

[D. Bryant]

Actually with film only being used by the relatively serious these days, for the most part, the percentage of crap in film is probably lower

Ah no. Just using film doesn't distinguish the shooter as a serious photographer. Just go look at some of the film only forum galleries. Actually I think the percentage of crap is higher there.

[Roger Cole]

Ah no. Just using film doesn't distinguish the shooter as a serious photographer. Just go look at some of the film only forum galleries. Actually I think the percentage of crap is higher there.

No, it doesn't necessarily mean they're much better. But aside from old people using the film camera they've had since the Nixon administration because that's all they know, film is more of a specific choice whereas digital is sort of the default. I'm not sure if the % of crap is any lower, but I thought it might be a tiny bit, like say 88% versus 90% crap to not-crap (ctnc ratio!)

[E. von Hoegh]

Last week I saw a young girl, say 20, on the sidewalk with a Canon AE1 in as new condition. She told me she prefers film to digital, and likes to work in the darkroom.

The more youg'uns that get bitten by the film/darkroom bug, the better.:)

[Robert Hughes]

I tried to get my 15 yo daughter to come to the darkroom last evening to make a couple paper negatives, but she begged out. "I'm just not interested". She loves digital, but she also liked the image I got from the paper neg.

[E. von Hoegh]

I don't think that, as a general thing, young people are learning to be patient. Everything that is marketed to them is instant gratification, it seems. Doing things in the darkroom takes time, downloading a bunch of digital images is instant, or near enough.

[Drew Wiley]

Well, I know a number of younger people who are giving up on digital and using film
cameras, whatever size they can afford. Maybe just the grass is green on the other side syndrome. But what's holding them up is more related to real estate - where do
you put a darkroom? And there are just a handful of rental darkrooms around, which
ain't as convenient. Or maybe each generation just rebels against their elders. You
know, back in our day it was left-wing lunatics and "revolution"; now it's right-wing
wackos and "jihad". Back then it was long hair and Kirk-style bellbottoms; now it's
baggy pants and skinheads. I know a guy my age still going around in 60's hippie attire
and lamenting how his son wears a suit and doesn't even smoke pot with him. So it is
inevitable that when this digital generation itself grows up, their own children will be
coating glass plates and mixing albumen emulsion.

[dwross]

... So it is inevitable that when this digital generation itself grows up, their own children will be coating glass plates and mixing albumen emulsion.

I believe this is spot-on, but maybe coming sooner than the next generation. From my viewpoint, I see a momentum building within the GenY's to have handicrafts in their lives. The GenY's I know were all about computers growing up -- totally part of their lives. Lately, I've been hearing my young friends and relatives talk enviously about things that were part of the lives of my parents (the Y's grandparents). Gardening, canning, sewing, woodworking, and the other '4H' stuff, including, of course, chemical photography. The handmade is going to have value in their lives and I think it's going to be a beautiful thing to watch evolve.

d

[Brian Ellis]

I believe this is spot-on, but maybe coming sooner than the next generation. From my viewpoint, I see a momentum building within the GenY's to have handicrafts in their lives. The GenY's I know were all about computers growing up -- totally part of their lives. Lately, I've been hearing my young friends and relatives talk enviously about things that were part of the lives of my parents (the Y's grandparents). Gardening, canning, sewing, woodworking, and the other '4H' stuff, including, of course, chemical photography. The handmade is going to have value in their lives and I think it's going to be a beautiful thing to watch evolve.

d

Just wait until they actually do some gardening - preferably in Florida in the summer like my father used to make me do - and some canning like my grandmother used to do. That will quickly cure them of any envy they have about those two miserable tasks.

[Jim Burk]

There is a twenty year old girl in my photo classes who is very skilled with a 4x5. Takes it to England in the summer, and will have her own display at the school this year. Last semester she took her FIRST digital shot for a class. She didn't like using it at all!

[D. Bryant]

I believe this is spot-on, but maybe coming sooner than the next generation. From my viewpoint, I see a momentum building within the GenY's to have handicrafts in their lives. The GenY's I know were all about computers growing up -- totally part of their lives. Lately, I've been hearing my young friends and relatives talk enviously about things that were part of the lives of my parents (the Y's grandparents). Gardening, canning, sewing, woodworking, and the other '4H' stuff, including, of course, chemical photography. The handmade is going to have value in their lives and I think it's going to be a beautiful thing to watch evolve.

d

Denise,

You should make a video showing everyone how easy it is, (not the gardening, canning, sewing, woodworking) just the chemical photography stuff.

You to Drew, show us some Cibachrome stuff in a YouTube video.

Don

[Corran]

But what's holding them up is more related to real estate - where do
you put a darkroom

Yep.

In my 2-bedroom apartment I do developing in the half-bathroom. I put an enlarger in one bedroom that I really can't use except at night unless I tape the edges of the blackout curtains I bought.

What a mess!

[Drew Wiley]

Don - I don't even know how to text or take a picture with my cell phone. I have no
idea what "Facebook" is, and don't give a damn if I ever do. I wouldn't have a clue
how to put something on YouTube either, because I rarely use it. My wife is much
younger than I; but she went out and bought an old record player so she can play real phonograph records, and she uses I-Tunes all the time too. At work it is mandatory for our vendors to communicate with us with FAX because it's a lot more
reliable than e-mail, and frankly, less work. Heck, our parents wanted ticky-tacky
homes and convenient jobs after WWII, so all us Baby Boomers rebelled and went
off to live in a cabin in the woods, grow our own tomatoes and *#%, and listened
to Creedence Clearwater albums using a generator and oil lantern (except for me,
because I grew up in the woods anyway and didn't have a phone or TV - so I guess
I didn't need to rebel).

[dwross]

Hi Don,

I suspect your suggestion about making a darkroom video was meant to be a tad ironic. Seems like a simple search comes up with an avalanche of material already available. I couldn't make one showing "how easy it is" anyway. Never have thought it was 'easy'. For me, that's the point. Where's the fun in easy? I think that will be the point, also, for many photographers coming into the field today. Even if digital photography is an aspect of their work, the niche value of analog will be a compelling reason to try analog. Some will find a market for their work. Some will do it for the same reasons any hobby artist works with a given medium -- because the materials and workflow speak to them and speak for them.

And mess? Yes!! Gloriously so. http://www.redbubble.com/people/redbubble/journal/6713297-inspiration-capturing-the-last-of-londons-darkrooms

Denise Ross
www.thelightfarm.com (i.e. probably the wrong person to talk about 'easy' :) )

[Vascilli]

Well, I know a number of younger people who are giving up on digital and using film
cameras, whatever size they can afford. Maybe just the grass is green on the other side syndrome. But what's holding them up is more related to real estate - where do
you put a darkroom? And there are just a handful of rental darkrooms around, which
ain't as convenient. Or maybe each generation just rebels against their elders. You
know, back in our day it was left-wing lunatics and "revolution"; now it's right-wing
wackos and "jihad". Back then it was long hair and Kirk-style bellbottoms; now it's
baggy pants and skinheads. I know a guy my age still going around in 60's hippie attire
and lamenting how his son wears a suit and doesn't even smoke pot with him. So it is
inevitable that when this digital generation itself grows up, their own children will be
coating glass plates and mixing albumen emulsion.

Ding ding ding! At least for me. My 4x5 equipment takes enough space as it is (according to my parents), I wouldn't be allowed an enlarger. Now that I'm off to university I'll have their resources to use, which should include equipment for print-making.

[Drew Wiley]

I've got a backpacking buddy about half my age who has a pretty nice DLSR. After
asking to look through my 4X5 and 8X10 groundglasses, he went and bought a very
nice used 6X6 film camera and a 35mm film rangefinder. He said he'd keep the DLSR
for family snapshots. Their first baby arrived two months ago, but everything he's
recorded so far has been on black-and-white film. He has to spool his developing reels in a film changing bag because of no darkroom; but they're trying to buy their first house, so an enlarger will probably come next. Then a couple days ago the prime
time local TV news showed a brief segment on some dude over in SF who built his own
14" X 3ft wide view camera and holders for use with X-ray film scenic panoramas.
They apparently thought that film doesn't even exist anymore, much less big funny
looking cameras. And yesterday some older guy saw me over on the trail shooting
the Sinar and asked to look through it. He asked me if film is still really made. When
I said yes, he replied that he had an old 35mm camera in a drawer and wants to dig
it out and start shooting a "real camera" again. There's just something real and tactile
about all this, versus ethereal and virtual. You can't get your hands on pixels.

[cyrus]

You don't really need an enlager/darkroom if you're willing to scan negatives. Not the full experience, of course, but halfway there.

[D. Bryant]

Hi Don,

I suspect your suggestion about making a darkroom video was meant to be a tad ironic.

Denise Ross


Irony? Ironic? Ah, I don't think so.

Perhaps this video will inspire:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/08/20/living/film-not-dead-yet/index.html?hpt=hp_bn8

Simple and direct videos posted on YouTube are helpful to a lot of people such as the recent ones on color carbon by/about Tod Gangler.

And videos like that might help promote your message. A little 21st century technology used to promote 20th century technology might not hurt your cause.

[Drew Wiley]

Cyrus - my friend scans his b&w negs just to he can invert and view them on the screen to see if he's in the ballpark with exposure. But quality digital printing requires
higher quality scans and printers, and that's not what he wants to do anyway. A real
darkroom, even if its just a closet with a basic enlarger and a tray ladder would probably fit this particular personality a lot better. He like the look of "real"photographs,
i.e., darkroom prints. It's like the difference between fresh wild salmon and farmed
salmon as far as I'm concerned, but to each his own.

[Helcio J Tagliolatto]

It's like the difference between fresh wild salmon and farmed
salmon as far as I'm concerned, but to each his own.

Interesting comparison!
After many years of farmed salmon eating only, I could taste wild salmon. There is a big difference for the better with the later....

[cyrus]

Cyrus - my friend scans his b&w negs just to he can invert and view them on the screen to see if he's in the ballpark with exposure. But quality digital printing requires
higher quality scans and printers, and that's not what he wants to do anyway. A real
darkroom, even if its just a closet with a basic enlarger and a tray ladder would probably fit this particular personality a lot better. He like the look of "real"photographs,
i.e., darkroom prints. It's like the difference between fresh wild salmon and farmed
salmon as far as I'm concerned, but to each his own.

Believe me, I understand but Ive noticed that once beginners understand that they can develop at home with a simple daylite tank, and are not thereby committed to creating a darkroom whether in a closet or bathroom even on a temporary basis but can instead scan their negs, they are more likely to "dip their toe" --- and once you got them that far, the rest follows. It is the old story of how to boil a frog.

[dwross]

The food/photography analogy is perfect -- right down to Steve Anchell's 'Darkroom Cookbook'. Sometime last decade, I read that the average size kitchen in a new up-scale American house was larger and more elaborate than the kitchen of an average 5-star Parisian restaurant. At the time, I thought the same mentality had gotten a hold on the ideas about what a darkroom had to be. It's unfortunate that those images of huge, shiny, 'ideal' darkrooms are probably the ones in the minds of many darkroom wanna-try's today.

(In my opinion) Cyrus is exactly right. And, the nice thing about negatives is that they keep really well. One that is scanned today can be enlarged tomorrow -- or in 2045. Yesterday, I printed a negative I had made in 1977.

Cyrus, I hope you get an opportunity to try emulsion making. I suspect you'd make a real contribution and have a great time in the process.

d

[cyrus]

Cyrus, I hope you get an opportunity to try emulsion making. I suspect you'd make a real contribution and have a great time in the process.

d

Thank you - I'm actually very interested in making handcoated dryplates. I understand that they can be reverse-processed and used even for making enlargements.

[Alan Gales]

My stepson, Eric, who lives in Chicago shoots a 35mm Contax 167MT. His girlfriend, Molly, uses an Olympus OM1. Eric is in his early 30's and Molly is in her 20's.

Besides their cell phones neither one owns or even wants a digital camera.

[dwross]

Hooray, Eric and Molly! Maybe they're onto the real trend in their demographic. Let's face it. Cell phone cameras are getting so good, stand-alone digital cameras may be going the dinosaur route (except perhaps for the obscenely expensive MF and LF varieties.) I've been having a great time making a silvergum print portfolio from cell phone jpegs my son sends me from his travels.

Cyrus: Absolutely. Silver gelatin dry plates are just negatives on glass. They're actually easier to print than film negatives -- no sagging in the negative carrier; no Newton rings :) . And, of course, they are ideally suited for contact printing. The negative itself is the glass in the frame.