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Lenrick
17-Aug-2011, 02:50
Hey

I read the post "I'm building a LF SCANNER camera (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=59800&highlight=Scan+Camera+System)" by Project ESE from 5-Mar-2010, and got inspired.

I thought that one article (http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~heidrich/Papers/EG.04.pdf) [1] mentioned in that thread was very good. But in the article they have used scanners with LIDE (LED Indirect Exposure) technology and more or less say that the 'normal' scanner technology used by most manufacturers is not recommended.

The Fujustu fi60-F scanner (http://www.fujitsu.com/global/services/computing/peripheral/scanners/product/fi60f/) seem to be well suited for 4x5" cameras. But I guess it does not use LIDE technology, though I cannot find any information on their homepage.

If I understand the article correct, one of the problems with scanners that don't use LIDE is that the sensor is not 'full width' and uses lenses and mirrors to cover the entire width of the scan area.

But in my case I'm not after extreme high resolution, but more a fun project and a working affordable digital back for my 4x5" camera. I think it would be possible to modify the Fujustu fi60-F scanner to work with a 4x5" camera without too many modifications. I guess the scanner light and glass plate should be removed.

Does anyone have any good advise or comments before I start?


[1]S Wang and W Heidrich. The Design of an Inexpensive Very High Resolution Scan Camera System. Computer Graphics Forum, Volume 23, Issue 3, pages 441–450, September 2004

ramon
17-Aug-2011, 08:17
Hi,

Good luck in your project! Please, keep us informed.

LIDE technology means using a CIS sensor (contact image sensor).

Alternative scanner for 8x10 cameras: IRIScan Book 2

- Contact Image Sensor with 5136 dots / 8.27" (600 dpi)
- Scan WITHOUT computer
- MicroSD card up to 32Gb
- 2xAA batteries
- 149 g
- Suggested retail price: 129 Euros

http://www.irislink.com/Documents/Image/aa-products/iriscanbook/IRIScanBook2-IDcard-us.pdf

Ramiro Elena
17-Aug-2011, 08:52
The Canon LIDE are very cheap second hand. I've gotten a couple for 10€ each. The one Ramon mentions sounds interesting too.

I went and did the modifications explained but couldn't get it to cover 8x10 without vigneting. Might have something to do with the lens... don't know for sure. There's a guy on Flickr doing amazing work called Brana Vojnovic.

jon.oman
17-Aug-2011, 10:52
I bought a Canon LIDE scanner to try this, but it is still sitting in the box........

Lenrick
18-Aug-2011, 03:04
Alternative scanner for 8x10 cameras: IRIScan Book 2

- Contact Image Sensor with 5136 dots / 8.27" (600 dpi)
- Scan WITHOUT computer
- MicroSD card up to 32Gb
- 2xAA batteries
- 149 g
- Suggested retail price: 129 Euros


Thanks for this suggestion Ramon. I just got a crazy idea about how to use this IRIScan scanner. If this idea is sound, it would basically turn my 4x5" camera into a 8x10" (or rather a 7x25") camera. And it would not cost a fortune.

Main advantage:
I would probably not have any problems with vignetting, since the light always comes straight at the scanner.
I can use my 4x5" camera.
I can use almost the entire sensor on the scanner.
I don't have to build some sort of complicated motor and sleigh, since I will use a motorized tripod head witch is available of the shelf (I saw one that cost about €400).

Main disadvantage:
I have to buy a somewhat expensive motorized tripod head.
I have to set up the tripod with high accuracy, it needs to be level.
I have to tilt the camera 45 degrees, which will feel awkward.
And probably a few other disadvantages I haven thought of yet...

Please see the attached pdf (the thumbnail seem a bit strage in my preview, but I could open it and it was fine, I hope it will work for you to).

So, what do you think?

ramon
18-Aug-2011, 09:54
Great Idea !

Your lens will need a bigger image circle (180 mm, instead of just 154mm for 4x5").

If you want to do some cheap first tests: instead of motorized tripod you can buy a low rpm "synchronous AC geared motor".

Do some google searches. Electronic suppliers (farnell, rs-components, digikey) have them in stock at about $25 USD.

You can put your camera in a motorized base and do a panoramic of your house.

You don't need a motorized tripod, you can just buy a low cost tripod head and with some practice to do smooth movements.

I think that you do not need the camera either: lens, black trash bag, IRIScan Book 2, and two hands :)

Improved version: lens, black trash bag, IRIScan Book 2, and a U shaped aluminium with central hole (1/4 or 3/8) to allow tripod mount of both lens an scanner. :eek:

Lenrick
19-Aug-2011, 00:22
Have you Ramon, or anyone else, any experience with the IRIScan? Either normal use, or as a 'scan camera' scanner?

Things I wounder about is stuff like:
Does it scan in mid air so to say, or is there any sensor telling the scanner if it is placed on a surface or not? If it has such a sensor, is it easily 'tricked' to make it think there is a surface underneath?
Is there any way of getting the RAW-data or at least a better format than jpg?
Will it be difficult to remove the lighting and the lens array?

Any thoughts?

Lenrick
19-Aug-2011, 03:12
By the way, I have a "Rodenstock 72 Deg. APO-Sironar-N 5,6/150mm" lens. And if I understand the table on Rodenstock's homepage (http://www.prograf.ru/rodenstock/largeformat_en.html#image%20circles) correct the image circle at infinity at aperture 16-22 is 214 mm. Which should cover the entire sensor.

ramon
19-Aug-2011, 11:04
I have no experience with this scanner.

CIS sensors are intended for low resolution scan of paper (or book) scanning. So they directs light to the scan area.

This could cause light reflection problems inside bellows. And this light, in some sensors, cannot be disabled.

The best DIY scan project I have seen to date is from Project ESE that you comment in your first post. Scanner-Camera v3.0 videos are great.

The reason I talked about the IRIScan is because their cost is 3x lower than FUJI FI-60F scanner being the same technology (CIS sensor) and resolution (600 dpi). IRIScan also has the advantage of lower weigth, size, and portability. With 2xAA Batteries can scan the image an store into microSD card. No need to carry PC into the field.

You can also take a look at Mustek ScanExpress H610 Scanner. Almost same specs than Iriscan book 2.

I do not believe that you can obtain raw data with this type of scanners.

Lenrick
21-Aug-2011, 22:42
For anyone who is thinking of building a scanner camera like the ones Michael Golembewski from The Scanner Photography Project (http://golembewski.awardspace.com/index.html) is building. I found a instructive blog which I haven't seen anyone link to before: Duckie's Blog (http://mosesblah.wordpress.com/2010/03/03/the-scanner-camera/)

Peter De Smidt
22-Aug-2011, 12:04
Take a look at the images Duckie produced with his system. http://mosesblah.wordpress.com/2010/03/23/scanner-camera-images/

papah
22-Aug-2011, 20:29
Here are some similar projects:
http://golembewski.awardspace.com/index.html
http://johnvanhornphoto.com/lgformatdigitalphotography/camera2007/Camera2007.html
http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~heidrich/Papers/EI.04.pdf

I've attached a scan I did with a Canon LiDE 20 duct-taped to an 8x10...:)

Lenrick
25-Aug-2011, 00:53
The IRIScanner arrived yesterday.

Now I understand how the scanner knows how fast it is being moved over a surface. Wheels underneath the scanner are connected to a gearwheel that sits between a LED and a photo detector (please see attached pdf). In order to trick the scanner so that it thinks it is being moved over a surface I have to spin the wheels or in some other way turn the gearwheel, it could also work if I get the LED to blink.

(It might have been better to buy one of those scanners that pulls the paper by themselves, and remove the bottom part of the scanner.)

I have done some calculations and concluded that the gearwheel in the IRIScan should turn with approximately 40-150 rpm (depending on resolution and the speed of the motorized tripod head). My idea is to connect it to a small DC motor. I found this motor: http://www.micromotorssrl.com/motor_l149/l149_pg.html
what do you think?

At the moment I cannot get to the illumination light source (which must be a LED), but it doesn't seem to be any problem to block the light. The sensor and light source are hidden in a casing which I cannot open at the moment. The lens array is glued to the casing, I might be able to get to the light source when I have removed the glue and the lens array. But first I want to concentrate on the gear wheel problem.

I took a quick normal scan of a picture on a book page, see attached file.

I also, quickly, tried to do a 'proof of concept image' with the scanner mounted on the camera. I tried to turn the wheels with one hand and turn the camera with the other hand. See attached file. With some practice I think I could get a decent image. With a smooth wheel turning and smooth camera turning even better. And finally with lens array and light source removed even better.

Any comments?

Lenrick
25-Aug-2011, 01:41
Silly me. The simplest way to trick the scanner must be to mask or remove the gearwheel LED and use an external blinking LED. I just need to figure out at what frequencies it should blink and how to build that type of circuit.

-edit: A rough estimate puts the blinking LED frequency in the range of 20-200 Hz (depending on resolution and the speed of the motorized tripod head).

Lenrick
25-Aug-2011, 10:03
The gearwheel LED is not a visible light LED, it is a IR LED.

I tried to block it an use the strobe function on my iPhone LED but nothing happened. But when I, with fast movements, removed the blocker and put it back a few times the scanner seemed to start scanning. And when I didn't see the LED shine I thought of IR LED.

I then tried, with the gearwheel LED blocked, to point a TV remote controller towards the photo detector and try to scan in mid air. Worked perfectly.

I need to build or buy a small thing that runs on batteries and flashed a IR LED at about 50 Hz. If the frequency could be adjustable between roughly 10-200 Hz it would be even better. Is it a good idea to try to rebuild an old TV remote controller, do you think?

ramon
25-Aug-2011, 12:09
Do a search about "led flasher" or "led blinking"

Maybe the simplest way is using NE555 IC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/555_timer_IC
http://wild-bohemian.com/electronics/flasher.html
http://www.satcure-focus.com/tutor/page11.htm
http://www.bowdenshobbycircuits.info/page5.htm
http://www.qrp.pops.net/LED-2008.asp

pound
1-Sep-2011, 21:22
For anyone who is thinking of building a scanner camera like the ones Michael Golembewski from The Scanner Photography Project (http://golembewski.awardspace.com/index.html) is building. I found a instructive blog which I haven't seen anyone link to before: Duckie's Blog (http://mosesblah.wordpress.com/2010/03/03/the-scanner-camera/)

here is another instructive blog post (http://gatohaus.wordpress.com/2011/06/15/canon-lide-20-scanner-disassembly/)on disassembing the LIDE 20 with more and clearer photos

Ramiro Elena
2-Sep-2011, 00:31
That's nice pound. I'd like to see something like this on the modification of the black strip. I've never understood what exactly needs to be done to it. The one I modded only got me a worse image.

Math
2-Sep-2011, 00:47
How about getting a very fine groundglass and sweeping the IRISCAN over it? I've been looking into finding a more traditional A5 sized scanner, but they're not easy to find.

Steve Smith
2-Sep-2011, 02:36
I need to build or buy a small thing that runs on batteries and flashed a IR LED at about 50 Hz.

Use the 555 circuit already suggested but instead of an LED, connect the output (pin 3) via a 10K resistor to the base of a transistor. Connect the rest of the transistor in place of the IR receiver. Run it from the scanner power supply.


Steve.

Lenrick
3-Sep-2011, 07:50
Use the 555 circuit already suggested but instead of an LED, connect the output (pin 3) via a 10K resistor to the base of a transistor. Connect the rest of the transistor in place of the IR receiver. Run it from the scanner power supply.

Great idea! I have just stated to play around with 555 IC (actually 556 but at the moment I'm only using one of the 555 halves).

I'll post as soon as I have a new scan image, but at the moment I have a lot to do at work so things a progressing slowly. I managed to remove the lens array and lighting though.

Keep all the good ideas coming.

Thanks!

Lenrick
4-Sep-2011, 01:14
Here you can see the first sample image of the IRIScan back. I hope I can improve on this.

I just built a solder free test setup with flashing IR LED. I can adjust the frequency with the potentiometer. If I can figure out how to improve the image, it could be worth trying to get a more permanent setup with a transistor instead of IR LED, and using the batteries in the scanner.

I need to try different combinations of IR LED frequency and camera turning speed. Also try with "high" or "low" resolution with color mode or black and white mode.

rakkir
21-Nov-2015, 09:50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNEyIt0yqUU
http://cdn.makezine.com/make/scannercamera.pdf

Abe c
6-Jun-2018, 08:19
I have been building/using scanner cameras for a long time. There is a trick to make the work almos as a digital camera. Right now I have a 9x12 and 2 5x7 and a brownie 4x5 with scanners.

EdSawyer
6-Jun-2018, 10:25
post pics!

Abe c
7-Jun-2018, 16:21
post pics!
179079

Abe c
7-Jun-2018, 16:22
here, an other pic of one of my ultra 179080large format scan cameras

lawsonpix
11-Jun-2018, 06:21
This looks incredible! Post pics of the results :)

Abe c
11-Jun-2018, 20:45
179306179304179307

Abe c
11-Jun-2018, 20:46
More179305

Abe c
11-Jun-2018, 20:49
I manage to control depth of field, apply the SUNY 16 rule. Lots cool effects that you can’t get with regular cameras. U used all types of scanners, there is a trick it took me years to discover.

Abe c
11-Jun-2018, 21:03
179308

Abe c
11-Jun-2018, 21:04
179309
My 9x12 without the bellows.

Abe c
11-Jun-2018, 21:07
You can see my profile in google. Search Abraham Chaidez. I’m going to have a free tutorial in Hollywood soon and maybe a trip to my shop in Palmdale,ca

lawsonpix
13-Jun-2018, 10:22
I manage to control depth of field, apply the SUNY 16 rule. Lots cool effects that you can’t get with regular cameras. U used all types of scanners, there is a trick it took me years to discover.

Wow, these look great. What's the trick?

Abe c
13-Jun-2018, 22:19
Nothing, people think too much about it. All you need: buy or make a 5x7 camera and Dixie flip scanner, glue it with double tape on to the back (rear) standard and us a dslr focussing hood as a loupe. You won’t need the gg, you will need to find an old lcd tv,brake it and save the gg sheet. A ground glass will give you a bright spot in the picture, ( no good)unless you use borosilicate glass. ($$)
LCD tv’s, (not plasmas) have 4 sheets, one black,one white, one fresnel and one gg. You need the last one. Install the price of that sheet on to the Doxie’s glass with the coarse fecing the back of the scanner,(facing the sensor).Bingo! Tell your model not to breath for 10 secs. Enjoy, play with it, don’t listen to the opinions here about: beignet I g on stuff like that. If you want sharpness, buy a dslr. Don’t waste money buying other equipment or experimenting, I already did for you. :).

lawsonpix
14-Jun-2018, 19:13
Well that is very impressive. I've been looking for a scanner back idea. I've been shooting the ground glass and have enjoyed the experiment. I found that shooting wide open aperture reduces the bright spot in the middle enough to make it a useful image. Here's a sample: 179396 Or my Flicker: https://www.flickr.com/photos/lawsonpix/41490070085/