What is the cause of this problem?

[Erik Larsen]

Hi folks,
Any clue what might have caused this problem in the circled area of the neg scan? 8x10 efke 100 Processed on a roller base with pyro m 1+1+100. Presoak with filtered water. Developer poured into a rotating drum (1000ml), water stop, tf3 fix. It kind of ticks me off as I like the drama of the scene except for that hard to retouch spot circled. The streak is in the direction of rotation (2800 print drum) Is it something that was on the film prior to development? I haven't seen this before and hope to not see it again:)
Thanks for any help!
regards
Erik
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6014/6003493944_39f74547be_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jiggerpress/6003493944/)
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[Greg Blank]

Unless you see it again its hard to say. What does the actual film look like? If you formulated that developer the components were not completely mixed perhaps. Crystal components of many developers will produce those sort of issues if they are still crystaline when used. As such a crystal dissolves it can leave a trail.

[DanK]

Whatever it is, it looks like it was stuck to the emulsion prior to development...

Has a nice UFO look to it....sure it wasn't during exposure? :eek:

Dan

[sully75]

what does it look like physically on the neg? Could it be fixer? Is it on the emulsion side or the other side?

[Erik Larsen]

Thanks guys. I'm at a loss. It looks almost like fixer got on the neg in that spot but I can't for the life of me figure out how that could happen in a rotating drum and only in the middle of the negative on the emulsion side etc. Something that stuck to neg prior to development that slowly dissolved away inhibiting development is all I can think of at the moment. Is there any reasonable way to retouch this streak out on the negative for optical printing?
regards
erik

[Bill_1856]

Looks like a scratch to me.

[Ivan J. Eberle]

My WAG is it looks like a scuff. Being that it's close to the center, perhaps the film popped during exposure, and the darkslide caught it upon re-insertion.

[Ken Lee]

If there's a scratch in the emulsion, you should be able to see it with a loupe, especially under oblique illumination.

[Erik Larsen]

Thanks for hints guys,
It definitely is not a scratch or scuff as the emulsion is undamaged looking under a loupe and smooth to the touch on both sides of the neg. It appears as if something soaked into the emulsion somehow. I tried to re fix and wash hoping it was maybe something I could get rid of but no joy there either. I'll just chalk it up to experience and make sure I expose a couple sheets if I think I might really enjoy the scene. Luckily I have another negative exposed near the same time but with a slightly different exposure that I can try to salvage the day.
Thanks again folks!
erik

[sully75]

what kind of drum are you using?

I've had a really hard time with unicolor print drums getting a good wash. No idea why. Hypo clear has helped.

I'd try hypo clear just for the hell of it.

[Erik Larsen]

what kind of drum are you using?

I've had a really hard time with unicolor print drums getting a good wash. No idea why. Hypo clear has helped.

I'd try hypo clear just for the hell of it.

Yeah Sully75 I tried that the second time around with the hca. I was hoping it was gonna wash out but it wouldn't budge. I'm using a a 2800 series drum.
thanks
erik

[Ken Lee]

Perhaps there was some condensation of moisture on the film at the time of exposure, which formed a droplet and then ran down the film an inch or so. The negative is under-exposed in that spot. It can occur whenever the gear is relatively cold, and we bring it out to shoot in relatively warm air.

[Greg Blank]

I wouldn't worry unless it reappears.

[Paul Metcalf]

any other exposures from that film pack have this mark?

[Erik Larsen]

any other exposures from that film pack have this mark?

No Paul, this is the only problem out of 35 or so sheets so far.

I think Ken might be on to something with the moisture. It was drizzling earlier and perhaps a droplet of water was on my film holder and dripped off at the most inopportune time right when I pulled the dark slide. That might explain the location and perfectly straight line it formed. That's as good a guess as I can come up with:)
regards
Erik

[Ken Lee]

Yes, and it's dripping upside-down, which is how the film sits in the camera, so to speak. We could almost estimate how long it took for you to make the shot. How about 10 seconds from the time you put the holder in place ? Make sure the light is good, cock the shutter and go. :)

[Stephane]

My turn!

I dont think moisture or droplets would stop the light completely. Maybe I should try vaporize water on a film, shoot and see. I would see the water as conducting the light, and maybe diffusing it along the edges.

So, you have been waiting for too long, here is the real answer to your problem:

Looks like something was touching the film while developing. This means the development did not happen at the contact. Not too sure how your system works, but think of what could have gone wrong. loaded the film in the wrong way in your tube?
Similar lines appeared when using the paterson orbital with the fins.

And to illustrate: here is a picture with the same defect produced by the fins of the developing tank touching the film while processing.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2548/3920459432_268d6945c5_b.jpg

Convinced?

[Erik Larsen]

My turn!

I dont think moisture or droplets would stop the light completely. Maybe I should try vaporize water on a film, shoot and see. I would see the water as conducting the light, and maybe diffusing it along the edges.

So, you have been waiting for too long, here is the real answer to your problem:

Looks like something was touching the film while developing. This means the development did not happen at the contact. Not too sure how your system works, but think of what could have gone wrong. loaded the film in the wrong way in your tube?
Similar lines appeared when using the paterson orbital with the fins.

And to illustrate: here is a picture with the same defect produced by the fins of the developing tank touching the film while processing.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2548/3920459432_268d6945c5_b.jpg

Convinced?

Thanks for thinking the problem through Stephane but I'm not convinced it was the "fins" in the tank":)

My "fins" are running perpendicular to the line on the negative so it can't be the "fins" but it could be something was touching the film during development and not allowing the developer to contact the film in that spot but I can't for the life of me know what that might have been that would have stayed stuck to the film during a 5 minute pre wash before development?
regards
erik

[Paul Metcalf]

Eirk - I finally looked real close at your negative scan, looks like there's another similar mark to the right in darker area of the negative?

Your ribs in your drum run perpendicular to the image? I have had issues in the past with uneven pyro development along the ridges with the film loaded emulsion side in. The only conclusion I was able to come to was the back of the film contacted the ridges, which resulted in a different heat transfer than other places in the film, and these areas resulted in different development densities. IIRC I extended my pre-wash time and also let the drum rotate in the water bath for a bit prior to adding the pre-wash, in an attempt to even out the temp across the drum. All subjective of course.

[IanG]

Iron is used in water purification, if a minute particle got thpough to your water supply and onto the film emulsion it can form a bleach with fixer. That's what it typically looks like when it occurs.

Ian

[Ken Lee]

http://www.kenleegallery.com/images/forum/canyon.jpg

Looking closely at the location you circled, I see that it is composed of 2 small spots.

I have pointed to 2 other areas - probably one of which was described by Paul.

You might want to photograph a uniform gray subject and see what appears on your negatives. I'm not familiar with your rotary device, but if it has more than one chamber, it might be that only one of them is causing a problem.

[Erik Larsen]

Eirk - I finally looked real close at your negative scan, looks like there's another similar mark to the right in darker area of the negative?

Your ribs in your drum run perpendicular to the image? I have had issues in the past with uneven pyro development along the ridges with the film loaded emulsion side in. The only conclusion I was able to come to was the back of the film contacted the ridges, which resulted in a different heat transfer than other places in the film, and these areas resulted in different development densities. IIRC I extended my pre-wash time and also let the drum rotate in the water bath for a bit prior to adding the pre-wash, in an attempt to even out the temp across the drum. All subjective of course.

Thanks Paul for the info. I know what the rib marks look like as I have seen them before. My solution was to to use the max amount of developer my drum would hold in the horizontal position. This has eliminated any surge marks around the ribs location as I believe (maybe mistakenly) that the marks were formed by a little "wave" action when not using sufficient quantity of developer. Whether it is coincidence or not, by using much more developer I think the "wave" pattern around the ribs is eliminated. I haven't seen uneven development along the ribs since I started this practice but I could just be getting lucky as well and it has nothing to do with amount of developer:)
regards
erik

[Erik Larsen]

http://www.kenleegallery.com/images/forum/canyon.jpg

Looking closely at the location you circled, I see that it is composed of 2 small spots.

I have pointed to 2 other areas - probably one of which was described by Paul.

You might want to photograph a uniform gray subject and see what appears on your negatives. I'm not familiar with your rotary device, but if it has more than one chamber, it might be that only one of them is causing a problem.

Thanks Ken,
I use a print drum to do 2 8x10's at a time on either a roller base or a Jobo cpe2+. I'm coming to the conclusion that it was something that I hope was an anomaly and was caused by careless handling and loading by myself (water on film holder, something on my hands while loading into print drum etc) and was just a fluke that happened. If it happens again, then I will begin to tear my hair out and begin to question my methods of development.
regards
erik

[Jay DeFehr]

It looks like particle contamination, to me. What that particle might be is anyone's guess, and Ian's is as likely as not. It might also be particles precipitated in the developer. I think staining developers are more susceptible to these kinds of problems than non-staining developers are, so fastidiousness is critical. Then again, these things happen, it seems, regardless of the care we take to ensure they don't. Nice image, by the way.

[Rick A]

I've had something similar happen, I accidentally dripped water on a dry negative and it showed similar to yours. Have you tried rewashing and rinse in photoflo(or similar) to clear it, worked for me.