5x7 Questions

[ryuichi cooper]

Hi,

First of all I'm a newbie. I've been into 35mm for decades, but now I've seen the light.

I've seen so many great deals using 4x5 format, but the more I read about 5x7 format, especially here in this web site, I feel that's where I need to be. My love is landscape photography. The moment I saw landscape in LF I realized I was using the wrong format, i.e., it ain't in 35mm.
I realize everything is hard to come by in 5x7 and I should be starting out in 4x5 just to learn the 'ropes' but I'm not as young as I used to be so I'm anxious to get started out in the format that I want to develop and print in.
I've read the LF section of 'The Camera' and the one by Simmons, but I still have questions and am hoping you can help.
I've seen camera's such as Ansco, B&J, & Kodak advertised on ebay without film backs, film loaders, or lens board. If I purchase one of these camera's without the film back, lens board, etc, can I purchase any 5x7 film back, film loader or lens board or does it have to be for the specific camera that I purchased?

thx,

rudy

[Ari]

To answer your question: film holders are mostly standardized, so you can get a Fidelity, Lisco or whatever holder, and it will work with your camera.
The same cannot be said of lensboards or bellows, which are generally brand-specific.
There's a 5x7 outfit for sale here on the forum; it has camera, lens and film backs included, and is from one of the better sellers around.
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=78914
It would get you started right away, just get yourself some film.

[Ken Lee]

Based on your question, you might want to take just a little more time: enough to become better acquainted with View Cameras in general. You need to learn about the basics, so that you can find something which suits your way of seeing.

There are many kinds of "landscape" photography. Do you shoot long lenses ? Wide ? Do you trek or walk ?

As with the other Large Format sizes, 5x7 cameras differ in weight, length of bellows draw, range of movements, ease of use, portability, affordability, etc. There are monorails, folders, field cameras, tail cameras. They are made of wood, of metal, and of composite materials. Some fold down small, while others do not. Some will let you use very long lenses (or very short ones) while others will not. Some will also let you shoot with a 4x5 back, while others will not... etc.

That being said, the quality jump from 35mm to 5x7 is breathtaking: over 20 times the film area.

[MIke Sherck]

I'm not sure what you mean by "film backs" and "film loaders". On most view cameras, the rear standard assembly has two components: the rear standard itself, which is the part which moves for movements, focusing, and to which the rear of the camera's bellows is attached, and the film back itself, which hosts the ground glass assembly and into which a film holder slides. In many cameras, this part is removable from the rear standard so you can switch it from landscape to portrait orientation. If this is the "film back" you refer to then be cautious of buying a camera without one: for the most part they are specific to a particular make and model of camera, and even for cameras currently in production can be difficult to find. For older cameras such as the makes you mention, you may have to search long and hard to find a replacement for a missing film back.

I'm guessing that for "film loader" you refer to what most of us call a 'film holder', except for our British cousins who for some odd reason call them "double dark slides" or "double darks" for short. Although not made in large quantities any longer they are common used, easily found on Ebay or forums like this one. You need perhaps three to six to start with and a total inventory of a dozen, accumulated over time, is sensible to many. Older ones are made of wood, modern ones of plastic. The wooden ones are usually lighter in weight than the plastic but may be worn or warped through humidity or moisture and leak light into the back of the camera. Buying more modern plastic ones is safer if you must buy sight unseen and don't have the opportunity to return them if they leak light. For 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10 there are ISO standards for their measurements and except for some very old ones, film holders are interchangeable. There are no standards for larger film holders and you need to do a lot more research before getting into that! An exception for smaller cameras is very old cameras, originally made long ago for glass photographic plates. A modern film holder will not place the film in the correct place for proper focus, as they were made to hold thicker glass plates. You should avoid very old cameras unless you are certain that their film backs are really for film, not glass plates. Note that some cameras are made for the European market and film holders may be sized for films cut to metric measurements. Generally, though, if you buy a camera from a US based seller, made since oh, 1930 or so, and buy plastic film holders, you'll avoid all the 'ifs' and 'buts' and be fine. Otherwise, ask questions. Now you know some of the questions to ask!

There is little standardization on the size or thickness of lens boards. The lensboard for Linhof Technica cameras is the closest you'll likely find: a couple of cameras use a lensboard of the same size and shape and for other cameras an adaptor board which accepts lenses mounted on Technica boards can be purchased, but really you can't count on a lensboard from one brand of camera fitting a camera of another brand. Especially for older cameras, lensboards already bored to fit a specific make and size of shutter may be difficult to come by. On the other hand, for most cameras they are very easy to make; if you're the least bit hand you can make them out of wood and there are folks around who are happy to make one for $30-$50 or so. Personally, my 4x5 camera uses lensboards 4" square (fairly common, I think,) and my 8x10 uses 6" square lensboards. I've made most of my 4" lensboards myself, with hand tools. For the big guy I made an adaptor which takes 4" lensboards. Thus, all of my lenses are mounted in 4" square lensboards, most of which I made myself, and all can be used on either camera. The fact that my lensboards for my mahogany 4x5 camera are all lovingly stained a deep Walnut is merely notice that I am not even remotely a wood worker! :)

Hope this was helpful!

Mike

[ryuichi cooper]

Based on your question, you might want to take just a little more time: enough to become better acquainted with View Cameras in general. You need to learn about the basics, so that you can find something which suits your way of seeing.

There are many kinds of "landscape" photography. Do you shoot long lenses ? Wide ? Do you trek or walk ?

As with the other Large Format sizes, 5x7 cameras differ in weight, length of bellows draw, range of movements, ease of use, portability, affordability, etc. There are monorails, folders, field cameras, rail cameras. They are made of wood, of metal, and of composite materials. Some fold down small, while others do not. Some will let you use very long lenses (or very short ones) while others will not. Some will also let you shoot with a 4x5 back, while others will not... etc.

That being said, the quality jump from 35mm to 5x7 is breathtaking: over 20 times the film area.
Yes I understand that. I've been lurking here and doing as much reading as I can on LF. So I am at the point of actually doing. In fact I was at your web site in the past reading, absorbing as much as I could.

[Ken Lee]

In fact I was at your web site in the past reading, absorbing as much as I could.

Oops :)

Most cameras can handle most shooting conditions.The differences between cameras become important when we reach the extremes: Do we need to set up and shoot in a hurry ? Do we need ultra-light weight ? Extreme movements ? Shooting in high wind ? Low temperatures ? Tropical conditions ? Many of the best-known Large Format photographs of the 20th century were made with ordinary LF cameras and unremarkable lenses.

Even so, many people end up buying a few cameras. Either it takes them a while before they find their one favorite, or they keep a few for different purposes.

In recent years I have used a Tachihara, Wisner, ARCA Swiss, Shen Hao, Kodak, and a Sinar. I kept the Sinar and Kodak - but I've always mounted my lenses on Technika boards. Only the Tachihara and Shen Hao take Technika boards directly: the others require an adapter. Most lenses fit on a Technika board, except those which are quite large, and which would be too heavy for most wooden folding cameras.

For 5x7, the "normal" focal length is around 210mm. It takes a 450mm lens on 5x7, to give the same basic reach as a 100mm lens on 35mm. So if you like to shoot with long lenses, make sure you get a camera that accommodates long lenses (long bellows draw), or plan on getting long lenses of telephoto design. If you shoot with ultra-wide lenses, then be sure to get a camera with interchangeable bellows, so you can use a bag bellows.

[Andrew Plume]

Hi Rudy

as Ken has said this really is a large beast that you need to get your head around and the number of permutations, is well...............

I have an idea, which is more of a hands on and practical one - how about putting a post up on here for anyone in the SoCal area who has a range of different 4x5 and 5x7 cameras that you can go and look at and play with? in that way you'll have a far better idea of the opportunities available

regards

andrew

[Jim Jones]

A brand that is servicable and usually inexpensive is Burke & James. For a few decades almost of my 5x7 and 4x5 photography was done with one B&J flatbed camera, both sizes of backs, and a variety of lenses. Jim Galli's camera mentioned in the first reply is far more elegant, but less versatile. The B&J has nearly unlimited front and back swings, tilts, and rises. With the extension bed (often missing) it has plenty of bellows extension. It is not the delight to use that many other view cameras are, but can capture the same images. It requires a recessed lensboard for a 90mm lens while my pretty little Ikeda takes a 65mm lens on a flat lensboard, and weighs half as much. The 5.5" lensboards for the B&J can easily be made from 3/8" plywood on a table saw or built up from thinner plywood. These accept really huge lenses. One pecularity of at least some B&J flatbed cameras is the slightly recessed tripod socket, which may require a longer 1/4x20 screw than a few tripods provide. B&J also made monorail cameras, more rigid but bulkier than the flatbed models.

[ryuichi cooper]

Thx everyone for comments and suggestions. You've given me a lot to think about and you all have been very helpful.

thx again,

rudy

[John Koehrer]

There are several advantages to the 5X7 not mentioned. You can use a reducing back and shoot 4X5 which is less expensive than 57 and with the 57 you would have more than enough extension for long lenses on 45. And a normal lens on 57 is a long lens on the 45.
Keep in mind that all 45 lenses will not cover a 57 negative but all 57 lenses will cover 45.
In focal length, a 110/120mm is wide on 57 and a short normal on 45.
180/210(240) is normal on 57 and long on 45. On 4X5 135/150 is normal but slightly wide on 57.

Sum total = Coverage is everything, focal length is the same regardless of film size.

The B&J cameras mentioned by Jim are about as inexpensive as you can get. They're simple flat bed cameras with a lot of flexibility. Accessory reducing backs are very common because there were so many B&J's made. If you don't like battleship gray,They're usually maple and refinish very well.

If you think flat bed cameras are limiting, remember Edward Weston? Korona 8X10 and for his small format I believe it was a Graflex 3 1/4 X 4 1/4 his SLR.
He also used a number of lenses that, by todays standard are considered not very good.

[Roger Cole]

Do you have or can you get a 5x7 enlarger, or do you plan to make only contact prints and/or scan and work digitally?

The fact I have a 4x5 enlarger (and others are readily available) is the biggest reason I've not yet looked at going bigger than 4x5. 5x7 enlargers aren't exactly rare or, these days, expensive, but most people won't ship them and it would be expensive anyway. If you can find one locally you'll be set. Or you can contact print and scan and print digitally.

[Two23]

There are three disadvantges to 5x7 to keep in mind. First is very limited film availability, especially color film. If you are content to shoot mostly b&w this isn't as big a deal. Second disadvantage is the weight and bulk of hiking with it. Third disadvantage is the cost of lenses tends to be higher. I suppose another disadvantage is there are fewer places to get 5x7 film processed. Not a problem if you are processing your own. Yes, you can put a 4x5 back on a 5x7, but if you're going to do that routinely why not just buy a smaller 4x5 to start with? There are some good deals out there on older 5x7 and a sharp looking Seneca has often tempted me. Last thing I need is to get started on yet another format, LOL. All in all, 4x5 is the most versatile and easiest to manage.


Kent in SD

[Ole Tjugen]

I find 5x7" to be a perfect format - the smallest format where I can easily look at the ground glass with both eyes, in either orientation. That makes composing so much easier that my "hit rate" with 5x7" is over twice as high as with 4x5", and about equal to 8x10".

Also, I don't find the lack of colour film in 5x7" to be much of a problem since there is a good selection of available films in 13x18cm - thee only drawback is that I have two sets of holders. But that can be a bonus too, as 13x18cm holders always hold colour film and 5x7" always B&W!

5x7" also makes nice contact prints, a much better size (for my pictures, at least) than 4x5". And I have a 5x7" enlarger...

[John Kasaian]

Agfa Ansco made very nice 5x7s. The was even a 5x7 Speed Graphic made! 4x5 Deardorffs (with the exception of the "Baby" Deardorff & Triampro)should accept 5x7 backs. I'd love to find a 5x7 Nagaoka(which is lighter than most 4x5 woodies) or a 5x7 Linhof Technika at a good price. There are lots of 5x7s to choose from.
Lenses that will cover 5x7 aren't especially expensive if you've no objection to used glass (maybe look at a 210 G Claron, for starters) but the price of used film holders seems to be going up.
For an enlarger, if you prefer a wet darkroom, look for an Elwood---they aren't expensive at all---but contact prints are very special(ask anyone who shoots 5x7)
For film, if you're on a tight budget B&W is the way to go(Arista.edu Ultra comes readily to mind) but 5x7 color is absolutely stunning (just take a look at Q.-Tuan Luong's images!)
Most of all, have fun!

[Graybeard]

Ditto on the 5x7 Ansco. A nice, solid tailboard-type camera often available for well under $200 with a good bellows in the (common) battleship gray variant. If your reason for owning a 5x7 is to take pictures, a gray Ansco can serve you very well. If you enjoy owning a pretty camera (no shame in that), that can also earn its living in the field as well as taking pictures, an (otherwise identical) non-painted Ansco 5x7 may be a good choice, albeit at somewhat higher cost.

A simple wooden block under the front standard will add front swings to the camera movements.

The Ansco isn't a lightweight camera and while backpacking it is within reason, it wouldn't be my first choice. (Truth be told, my first choice for backpacking is a 4x5 Tachihara - the 5x7's stay home if I have to cover ground, often vertically in the places that I seem to find myself).

Good luck=


Agfa Ansco made very nice 5x7s. The was even a 5x7 Speed Graphic made! 4x5 Deardorffs (with the exception of the "Baby" Deardorff & Triampro)should accept 5x7 backs. I'd love to find a 5x7 Nagaoka(which is lighter than most 4x5 woodies) or a 5x7 Linhof Technika at a good price. There are lots of 5x7s to choose from.
Lenses that will cover 5x7 aren't especially expensive if you've no objection to used glass (maybe look at a 210 G Claron, for starters) but the price of used film holders seems to be going up.
For an enlarger, if you prefer a wet darkroom, look for an Elwood---they aren't expensive at all---but contact prints are very special(ask anyone who shoots 5x7)
For film, if you're on a tight budget B&W is the way to go(Arista.edu Ultra comes readily to mind) but 5x7 color is absolutely stunning (just take a look at Q.-Tuan Luong's images!)
Most of all, have fun!

[jnantz]

don't forget whatever large format camera you get
you can begin by making paper negatives ( putting photo paper
in your film holders instead of film ) which will save you $$ while
you get acquainted with your camera. your paper can be processed
very quickly with the safelight on, so its pretty easy and quick for feedback.

have fun !
john

[jeroldharter]

A Canham Traditional 5x7 with an additional 4x5 reducing back would be a great setup. The bellows are long, and using the reducing back would enhance the telephoto effect (or crop the 5x7). The Canham is lightweight also.

For me, the main problem with 5x7 is enlarging the film. Not too many 5x7 enlargers out there so you would most likely end up with an 8x10 enlarger and then wonder about shooting 8x10!