Developing problem, bad film, or something else?

[engl]

I'm usually shooting color negative, but recently I took some BW photos. Unfortunately, the negatives came out pretty bad, with black spots scattered over one side of the negative.

They were all ERA PSS 100 film, stand developed in R09 (Rodinal) using a CombiPlan tank. I've used this exact combination in the past without issues like this.

All 6 negatives had the problem in varying amounts, it starts around halfway along the long side of the negative and gets more intensive near the edges. I've included one of the photos together with a crop.

Does anyone know what might be causing this?

[lenser]

Can't say for sure, but this looks suspiciously like air bells....little bubbles that form due to surface tension between the film and the liquid...and which are eliminated by banging the tank on a counter top a few times when the liquid is first poured in or by letting the hangers drop hard against the rim of the open tank several times if you use that method. Either method done vigorously when the developer or pre soak are first introduced, will dislodge the bubbles and allow total film/developer contact.

Using which ever method is appropriate for your gear then needs to be followed by normal agitation at correct intervals.

Air bells keep the devoloper away from the emulsion and result in what appears to be tiny black holes in the film when printed.

A pre soak in clear water is often helpful but the impact method is still needed to be safe.

[Andrew O'Neill]

So the negatives have clear spots on them then, correct? I'm not familiar with this film. I did have this problem sometimes with Kodak 4x5 IR when the stop bath was too strong.

[engl]

Thanks for your replies!


Can't say for sure, but this looks suspiciously like air bells....little bubbles that form due to surface tension between the film and the liquid...and which are eliminated by banging the tank on a counter top a few times when the liquid is first poured in or by letting the hangers drop hard against the rim of the open tank several times if you use that method. Either method done vigorously when the developer or pre soak are first introduced, will dislodge the bubbles and allow total film/developer contact.

Using which ever method is appropriate for your gear then needs to be followed by normal agitation at correct intervals.

Air bells keep the devoloper away from the emulsion and result in what appears to be tiny black holes in the film when printed.

A pre soak in clear water is often helpful but the impact method is still needed to be safe.

I can see how bubbles could lead to spots like this, but I am already giving the film a pre-soak and banging the tank on the table to dislodge bubbles. I've developed many 4x5 sheets (same film) as well as roll films with the same method and never had this problem. I included another photo with crop, this one also shows some kind of lines, and the black spots are very severe.


So the negatives have clear spots on them then, correct? I'm not familiar with this film. I did have this problem sometimes with Kodak 4x5 IR when the stop bath was too strong.

Yes, there are clear spots on the negative. The ERA PSS film is Chinese and now discontinued, but it had a good reputation, and I have been using it before without problems. I have not seen this problem mentioned elsewhere either. I'm only using a water stop bath (the developer is pretty much exhausted).

[Donald Qualls]

The second, larger image you just posted has both the clear spots (which I agree, look very much like the result of air bubbles) and a number of horizontal lines that appear similar to "stops" -- the result of "stopping" partway through film immersion, allowing the immersed portion of the film to develop while the part still dry doesn't. I'm assuming the right side of these last two images was at the top of the tank, so the air problem is worst there. The air you're seeing could be coming out of solution, I suppose, but you note that the developer is almost exhausted -- from that I infer that you're reusing your working solution for multiple film loads; very much not recommended with Rodinal or other similar diluted developers (even the 1:25 dilution shouldn't be kept more than a few hours after dilution). You could be seeing the clear spots forming due to particulates in the developer settling on the film (in that case, they'd likely be in the lower part of the tank rather than the upper -- do you load your film consistently so you can tell which side was up during development?), in which case the horizontal lines may be stratification happening during the standing period.

If by "exhausted" you mean the R09 concentrate is getting old, I wouldn't worry about that; Rodinal and its copies (even my homemade version that starts with acetaminophen tablets) are well known for very long concentrate life, even in an opened bottle, and will still work like new developer even when the concentrate is the color of Coca-Cola. I've heard of opened and resealed bottles of original Rodinal being still good after standing in a closet for ten years or more. If you're concerned about that, use a stirring rod or similar to put a drop of concentrate on a piece of scrap film; it should turn completely black in under fifteen seconds. If it does, it will still work.

[engl]

Thank you for your reply!

The 6 sheets of film were developed together and only that one sheet shows the lines, so I do not think they are the result of "stopping". I did have that problem once when I first tried developing but since then have made sure to pour in all of the developer in one go.

Regarding exhaustion, I only meant that since I'm using 1:100 dilution and stand development, I only need to use a water stop bath. The developer is mixed right before use, and thrown away after use.

I don't trust the shelf life of my Calbe R09 though. They have an updated bottle now that might be better, but the older one was of poor quality and slowly dissolved by the developer. They did not use any inert gas in the bottle to prevent oxidization, I don't know if they do that now. Calbe themselves rated it at 18 months shelf life, and judging by discussions on some German forums, they might have been right...

[Rick A]

The OP states he usually developes color film, leads me to wonder about how well the tank was cleaned before using B&W chems in it.

[Liam:]

I had the same problem with fomapan, increasing agitation got rid off any spots.

[engl]

The OP states he usually developes color film, leads me to wonder about how well the tank was cleaned before using B&W chems in it.

Sorry, I was not clear about this. I do not develop color film myself.

[hka]

Just some thaughts, could it be that the film sheet are separated by a paper layer in the box. I am thinking about moisture, maybe. Because the pattern is so evenly?

[rdenney]

This just doesn't look like air bubbles to me. The problems I've had with air bubbles have shown up as sharp-edged round holes in the emulsion. These artifacts have edge effects that are different than what I've seen, and they are not really round the way bubbles will be. I could see those effects having some relationship to a compensating developer, but Rodinal?

This looks more to me like the negatives were splattered with something while wet, and the drops diffused into the surrounding wetness. Beats me what might do that.

Rick "thinking a clear description of the symptoms comes before a proper diagnosis" Denney

[bob carnie]

I have to agree that this does not look like development problems, or at least one I have ever seen over the years.
For the first time on one of these threads I will say it looks like bad film. Or some kind of stress with heat and the emulsion sticking and releasing creating this pattern.

[rdenney]

A thought just popped into my head: I know what the pattern looks like. It looks like mold. Could fungus have grown on the film while in the box? Maybe it's time to pull out an unused sheet and take a good hard look at it.

Rick "wondering what mold would do to the emulsion" Denney

[Bob Salomon]

The CombiPlan instructions state that you shoud tap the tank on the counter to dislodge air balls after filling the tank. Did you do this?
See step 3 on next to last page of the instructions. If you need the instruction I can email you the pdf of them. Just email me privately.

[Armin Seeholzer]

Now you see the reason why I never again buy cheap film!
I only use Kodak, Ilford, and Fuji.

Cheers Armin

[engl]

Thanks again to all who have contributed ideas!

I took one sheet of film out from the box and inspected it with a loupe. I can not see any defects. The problem on the developed negatives is easily visible with the naked eye. Film from the same box was used less than a month ago without problem, so to me, the problem seems to lie elsewhere.

I did shake and stir the Calbe R09 bottle before use, something I've not done in the past. I assumed it was only liquid so did not think of mentioning it, but now I've read that crystals apparently can form in Rodinal-like developers. I think these might be linked to the spots I'm seeing. I've seen people saying that the crystals are harmless as long as they don't go into the working solution, but that might have happened as I shook and stirred the bottle. Perhaps they ended up on the film?

And to Bob, I do tap the tank, and still have the manual available. Thanks for the offer!

[Bazz8]

Thanks again to all who have contributed ideas!

I took one sheet of film out from the box and inspected it with a loupe. I can not see any defects. The problem on the developed negatives is easily visible with the naked eye. Film from the same box was used less than a month ago without problem, so to me, the problem seems to lie elsewhere.

I did shake and stir the Calbe R09 bottle before use, something I've not done in the past. I assumed it was only liquid so did not think of mentioning it, but now I've read that crystals apparently can form in Rodinal-like developers. I think these might be linked to the spots I'm seeing. I've seen people saying that the crystals are harmless as long as they don't go into the working solution, but that might have happened as I shook and stirred the bottle. Perhaps they ended up on the film?

And to Bob, I do tap the tank, and still have the manual available. Thanks for the offer!

This is a bit like take a guess and see who gets the closest!
I had a similar issue with some pan f and the negs continuely had a pattern of small
dots come blemishes on the clear area of the film,my solution turf the film.
the other one that caught me out was photo flo mixed in a black developing drum
and used each time I developed a film and similar marking that you have showed where all over the neg. It was mould when i emptyed the container the mould was coated on all the surfaces.
As others have already stated check each step of your developing to see where the culprit is hiding.
regards
bazz8:)