On Carbon Transfer Printing

[mat4226]

Hey there guys! Hopefully this isn't OT, but just wanted to say that after a long day of first attempting the carbon transfer process, I have considerably more respect for those here on the forums that regularly print this way. Though I mainly spent the day getting myself acquainted with the process, practicing the techniques, and making a few test strips, I'm starting to realize this is a deep, deep hole to get into.

Now onto the Q&A:

1. The minimum temp I'm getting from my darkroom sinks is 72 degrees Fahrenheit. When pre-soaking my final support (single transfer), should I adjust the recommended 15 min time? How about with the 1.5 min tissue soak prior to transfer?

2. What's the best way to get rid of excess grey streaks of tissue after warm water development?

Big thanks in advance for your input, I hope to have some decent images to show this forum by Christmas. ^__^

[Andrew O'Neill]

1. 72F lets see... that about 22 Celcius. I've never mated at that temperature but it should be okay. I mate at around 13 to 15C. I always keep "dead water" or rather water that has gassed out (no micro-bubble issues when transferring) in the fridge to get those temps.
15 minutes is too long to soak your final support, me thinks. What are you transfering onto? I transfer onto art paper sized with acrylic medium. My soak time for the support is 15 secs. The tissue gets a longer soak. 2:30 minutes.
2. Describe what the grey streaks look like. Do they go in the direction of the pull when you separate tissue from substrate? I used to get these until I increased the amount of sugar in the glop. For an 8% gelatin solution, I use 50g of sugar. 10% gelatin solution, 70g. What temperature do you develop at?

Please provide details of your glop recipe and what you transfer onto. A lot of experimentation must take place to make it work for you. Everything that I suggested are only things that you can try and may not solve your problems.

Are you aware of the carbon group on yahoo started by Sandy King a couple of years ago?
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarbronTransfer/messages?o=1

Or Bostick & Sullivans carbon forum?
http://bostick-sullivan.invisionzone.com/

I put together a video a month or so ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmpTgDlsr3o

Cheers!

andy

[John Jarosz]

Hi Mat,

Yes, it's a very deep hole. The practitioners all have their way of doing things. I can assure you that no two printers do things exactly alike.

1. Final support soak. Most people do this with cold water. I hope you mean that this is also the bath where you mate the exposed tissue to the final support (underwater). I usually have mine very cold - in the 50's (F). The other point on this water is that it should be still water. That is, water that has stood in a tank or tray overnight so it can outgas all the air dissolved in it. Doing this seems to eliminate microbubbles that can show up during development. I'd chill the water with ice.

2. People that make their own tissue call the emulsion glop only when it's in the glop stage. After you make tissue, then it's called tissue, or pigment. If you are referring how to get uniform middle grey areas in your print, well, that's one of the challenges. I'd avoid images with large areas of featureless middle grey until you get up to speed.

Since you are referring to glop, I assume you are making your own tissue?

Bostick & Sullivan has a Carbon Printing Forum (http://bostick-sullivan.invisionzone.com/). You might check in there to get more information as most of the carbon printers hang out there.

You'll also get a LOT of conflicting opinions about how to do things. That's because people tend to report techniques that work for them in their darkroom with their materials.

Your results will also be linked to the phase of the moon, the orbit of Jupiter and a couple of other factors which I forget. Someone will mention them.

Good luck.

John

[mat4226]

Thanks for the quick replies guys, I think I'm starting to see what my issue was here.

I'm not making my own tissues, I'm using some B&S premade sheets that seem to work quite well thus far considering my awfully sloppy technique. Right now I'm seeing the the mating bath should probably be a lower temp, with a significantly less pre-soak of final support, AND it needs to be dead water.

@Andrew I am aware of this group, just haven't invested too much time over there yet. The streaks I'm getting ARE in the direction of the final peel, but they're settling 1/2-1" outside the print area.

@John thanks for the nomenclature tips, I'll be sure to call a tissue a tissue from now on. :)

Thanks again guys!

[Andrew O'Neill]

The streaks are outside the print area? Not at all in the print area? If they are outside the print area, have you tried rubbing them off?

andy

[mat4226]

Yes, it's working for the most part, I've also tried a wet sponge. Just double-checking.

Also, I love the video you posted! It's a great overview for the steps, and I didn't even notice the no gloves thing until I saw people jumping you over on APUG about it.

At this point, I'm just happy that I got one good test strip exposed, developed, and staying on the paper. Speaking of which, I'm using fixed out 11x14 Agfa RC paper from the 80's. Works great and I have a HUGE supply from the old photo lab down the street.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Glad you liked the video. Thank you! Yes, I thought that was a bit overboard about the gloves. I always wear gloves, but going back and forth from carbon stuff to video camera to carbon and so on... I forgot to put them on, me thinks. I didn't even realize until someone on youtube mentioned it.
I made some nice prints on RC paper a year or so ago. If I recall, the soak time for that paper was only a few seconds. Just enough time to mate with the tissue.
The area outside the image, is it getting slightly exposed? How are you masking off your negs?

andy

[Dcohio]

I start to reply then put my daughter to bed when I come back its been said for me. I do warn you though it is addicting. I'm wallowing around in this hole with you. 1 thing I recommend is to keep good notes, I'm finding it very important when need to back track. This is something I'm forcing my self to do and it has helped. Now if I can get the right contrast I want in my prints then get massive relief I will be happy. If I don't get it soon my wife might divorce me!
Doug

[Jay DeFehr]

My setup is very primitive, I don't have a thermometer, or level or anything fancy, and it works pretty well. I had some problems with my first few prints because the red sheet protector I was using as rubylith wasn't effective, and I had some frilling. I switched to the black plastic that paper comes in and the problem was solved. I also printed a neg before my tissue was completely dry and ruined a negative. Impatience tax. I keep my transfer water in the refrigerator and use it right out of the refrigerator for my transfers. I'm making my own tissue and using fixed out photo paper for my final support. I soak my paper for about 2 min, and my tissue for about 1 min, then mate and transfer. I don't use glass or weight on my transfer, and I allow 15-30 minutes, then develop in hot tap water. I know it's primitive, and I'm probably very lucky to get any results at all, but it actually works pretty well. I've restricted myself to small formats, and I think that helps. I'm doing mostly 3x4, and a few 4x5s, but even these small prints are beautiful.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Hey Jay, for masking off negative borders, I've heard of some people using electrical tape and even masking tape. I use rubylith tape, and it can be used over and over again.




Now if I can get the right contrast I want in my prints then get massive relief I will be happy

I have never used B&S tissue, but I hear that it is thin. If you want max relief, make sure you choose an appropriate negative with appropriate density range and one that has lots of contrast with black tones next to white. Eventually try pouring your own tissue, then you can really play around with relief then.

[John Jarosz]

Yes, standard B&S tissue is thin and does not exhibit much relief when it's dry. They do sell a high relief tissue.

I've always felt that making one's own tissue should be done after you can make prints consistently. That way you'll have a better idea if any problems are related to making the tissue or making the print.

Yes, keep good notes and try to only change one parameter at a time so you can conclusively decide cause/effect of the change.

Some people feel it's better to allow some of your border to become grey as it helps prevent edge frilling. I use ruby litho tape to make my safe edge.

[Jay DeFehr]

Andrew,

We used rubylith at the workshop, but I don't have any at home, and couldn't find any locally. Instead I'm using the black plastic bag that photo paper is packed in. I just cut a section from it, cut a window out of it, and use/ re-use it just like I would rubylith.

John,

I understand your point about beginning with B&S tissue, but I think there are two sides to the issue. Making emulsion and coating tissue are important parts of the process, and take practice, so there's an argument to be made for getting started with it as soon as possible. I think the decisive factor could be attending a workshop, which gives one a huge head start with a proven process, much like using B&S tissue, but with the advantage of a comprehensive process. By duplicating (as closely as possible) Vaughn's process, I was able to get good (not great) prints from my first home made tissue. I was very lucky to have the opportunity to follow Vaughn's workshop with a visit to Tod Gangler's studio and darkroom for an intensive demonstration of his process. Comparing and contrasting Vaughn's and Tod's processes was incredibly educational and inspiring. I feel I have a solid theoretical foundation on which to build a process to meet my goals. Now I need to make a few thousand prints.:)

[D. Bryant]

I would encourage those with interest in printing carbon transfer to join Sandy King's carbon printing forum (link posted formerly in this thread).

I think some of his friends have nicknamed him, 'Carbon King'. :)

He is an excellent photographer, printer, and researcher. I've found his advice to be invaluable.

[mdm]

Mostly though because no one will try and sell you anything and because if you are going to ask useful questions or share knowledge it may as well be somewhere where they will last for a long time. The Yahoo forums are not perfect but but they have been around some time. Its better than invading LFPF.

[Jay DeFehr]

invading LFPF? I don't understand. Who is trying to sell me something? Is LFPF going away? Why should I believe this forum won't outlast the yahoo group? Your post makes no sense to me.

[D. Bryant]

Andrew,

We used rubylith at the workshop, but I don't have any at home, and couldn't find any locally. Instead I'm using the black plastic bag that photo paper is packed in. I just cut a section from it, cut a window out of it, and use/ re-use it just like I would rubylith.

John,

I understand your point about beginning with B&S tissue, but I think there are two sides to the issue. Making emulsion and coating tissue are important parts of the process, and take practice, so there's an argument to be made for getting started with it as soon as possible. I think the decisive factor could be attending a workshop, which gives one a huge head start with a proven process, much like using B&S tissue, but with the advantage of a comprehensive process. By duplicating (as closely as possible) Vaughn's process, I was able to get good (not great) prints from my first home made tissue. I was very lucky to have the opportunity to follow Vaughn's workshop with a visit to Tod Gangler's studio and darkroom for an intensive demonstration of his process. Comparing and contrasting Vaughn's and Tod's processes was incredibly educational and inspiring. I feel I have a solid theoretical foundation on which to build a process to meet my goals. Now I need to make a few thousand prints.:)

I agree that taking a workshop with carbon experts like Vaughn Hutchins, Sandy King, Jim Fitzgerald, Andrew O'Neil and so on is probably the optimum way to jump start ones journey into carbon pigment printing.

But access to these folks isn't necessarily easy or affordable for all, so going the B&S tissue route to make the plunge is a reasonable alternative. Carbon forums make the process accessible and if the neophyte carbon printer is smitten by the process using factory made tissue will more than likely help them to press on and learn to make their own.

Seasoned thrill seekers with prior experience in other alt. processes will have a leg up getting started but the rank beginner is sure to struggle mightily which will require a lot of determination to become self taught.

[sanking]

Hey Jay, for masking off negative borders, I've heard of some people using electrical tape and even masking tape. I use rubylith tape, and it can be used over and over again.




Be very careful in using electrical tape when printing with a plateburner or another light source that puts out a lot of heat. The heat can melt the adhesvie part of the tape and this can stick to the glass of your printing unit, or contact printing frame. This happened in a recent workshop I taught and it was quite a mess cleaning up the glass. The worst part of this is that you might ruin a few prints befoe noticing the spot on the glass.


Sandy

[Tri Tran]

Sandy is so right about this especially when you have a thick tissue for high relief that you've made according to the density of the neg and exposed it to the bone of the tissue. 1000 w with 30 min exposure is not fun . For safety purpose, I always have the fire extinguisher hang it next to my plate burner .

[CP Goerz]

You may want to try switching to the double transfer method as its easier. They grey areas if they are at the edge are from light exposure given to the film edge of the film so masking helps but a matt over the edge of the final print will be even better ;-)

If you get that light grey in the double transfer method all you do is wipe it off with your finger and give the final emulsion a quick wash in a photoflo solution to remove any tiny grains of pigment floating about.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

I do not feel there are many experts in carbon, certainly not me. If someone has a question about the process there are many qualified printers to ask. I prefer to take questions off of the forums and answer them via e-mails and do so on a regular basis. This does not clog up the boards. Carbon printing is all about just that, Printing. Experience unlocks the mystery. For me and the way I work I could never use tissue made by someone else. You have to think about this and you will understand why. Even if you are just learning, making tissue is the key.
Taking a workshop is very important step to understanding the process. I have always felt that a person need take one workshop with a printer they feel understands the process and has seen some of their work. You have to be committed to whatever process you choose in order to become a competent printer. Follow what you have been shown in a workshop setting and do not change a thing until you have made many, many prints and things become clear. Once you have done this you will never go back to anything else. At least this is true for me.

[Vaughn]

I do not feel there are many experts in carbon, certainly not me.

Right on! I am still learning...

[Andrew O'Neill]

I do not feel there are many experts in carbon, certainly not me. If someone has a question about the process there are many qualified printers to ask. I prefer to take questions off of the forums and answer them via e-mails and do so on a regular basis. This does not clog up the boards. Carbon printing is all about just that, Printing. Experience unlocks the mystery. For me and the way I work I could never use tissue made by someone else. You have to think about this and you will understand why. Even if you are just learning, making tissue is the key.
Taking a workshop is very important step to understanding the process. I have always felt that a person need take one workshop with a printer they feel understands the process and has seen some of their work. You have to be committed to whatever process you choose in order to become a competent printer. Follow what you have been shown in a workshop setting and do not change a thing until you have made many, many prints and things become clear. Once you have done this you will never go back to anything else. At least this is true for me.

Totally agree with you Jim, but there was no one around where I live who had experience in carbon transfer printing when I first got into it. So, I had to teach myself from what I could from the internet and from you guys. Thank God for the internet! Some people are just not able to make it to workshops. BUT, if one ever has the chance, grab it!
Maybe a carbon transfer print exchange would be a nice thing to do...:)

[Jim Fitzgerald]

I don't know about an exchange. A lot of work goes into the process. I'm thinking of a west coast meet up of some kind. I'll let everyone know when I get it more formalized.That way we can get together and show prints, discuss the process etc. Not real formal just a round table discussion or something. I'm going to be looking for a central spot. I think it would be a good thing. Just a weekend thing at first and then see where it goes. It can be hard for some of us to get to New Mexico so just a possibility. Kind of thinking out loud.

[Erik Larsen]

I don't know about an exchange. A lot of work goes into the process. I'm thinking of a west coast meet up of some kind. I'll let everyone know when I get it more formalized.That way we can get together and show prints, discuss the process etc. Not real formal just a round table discussion or something. I'm going to be looking for a central spot. I think it would be a good thing. Just a weekend thing at first and then see where it goes. It can be hard for some of us to get to New Mexico so just a possibility. Kind of thinking out loud.

Good idea Jim, but I think you should have it in my neck of the woods!:)
Erik

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Kicking around ideas. PM me some if you wish.

[mdm]

I thought of an excahnge too but making 10 nice prints predictably and in a reasonable time frame is something best left to master printers and those with time on their hands.

[Vaughn]

I don't know about an exchange. A lot of work goes into the process. I'm thinking of a west coast meet up of some kind...

There is always here in Humboldt County -- equally far from everyone!LOL!

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Vaughn, I was king of thinking about that. I mean classrooms, Darkroom etc. A good place to hang out and discuss what we do. Great shooting close by. Not that far for the people in Western Canada, Seattle area, Oregon. East we have as far as Colorado. Maybe a three or four day event. Long weekend on both ends? I'll give you a call and we can talk about it.

[Vaughn]

This part of the county lost internet and most cell phone coverage yesterday -- kind of nice to be communicatively isolated as well as geographically!

The classroom and darkroom time would have to be worked around our students -- best when they are on a week break. Let's talk.

Vaughn

[Curt]

There is always here in Humboldt County -- equally far from everyone!LOL!

A double triple vote yes on that!

Curt

[Andrew O'Neill]

Where's Humboldt County? I know of Humboldt, Saskatchewan...

[Jim Fitzgerald]

We will let everyone know. Andrew it is in Northern California close to the Oregon Border.

[Asher Kelman]

We will let everyone know. Andrew it is in Northern California close to the Oregon Border.
Jim,

I hope I can get to observe printing well before that! Per and I were arranging to meet right now! He had promised to get me going! Still his work has inspired me. Cannot believe how fast he slipped away!

Asher

[imagedowser]

Ah, Humboldt County... Part of the Emerald Triangle.