Jamin Darlot Convertible "Can Type" vs Cone Centralisateur

[goamules]

To me, one of the joys of shooting old glass is the research. This thread is to discuss a type of early Jamin Petzval convertibles that I believe are less common than the Cone Centralisateur, which is itself fairly uncommon.

I call these lenses "Can Type" because instead of a cone shape in the back that holds the rear element, there is a cylinder or "can." It is quite different than other petzvals of the period that had the rear glass mounted within the inner tube. In these, the can fixture is a larger diameter than the inner lens tube. In fact, the rear glass is a fair amount larger than the front element, which again is unusual in Petzvals.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6134/5987838517_f35092bf10_z.jpg
Cone (left) and "Can Type" Jamin Convertible Petzvals (right).

I'd like to know how many people have a "Can Type" Jamin or Darlot? I've seen many, many lenses in my travels, but not many of these. If you have one please post a picture and a photograph you've taken with it, if available.

[goamules]

Here is a closeup of the rear of two of mine. Each is slightly different. (no, they're not bent, it's a wide angle shot!)

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6140/5987838789_d27d78c0a9_z.jpg

And here is the only documentation I've ever been able to find:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6020/5988402092_8e55781168_b.jpg
(Traité encyclopédique de photographie de Charles Fabre 1889)

[CCHarrison]

Jamin made a number of lenses that could be used in combination. Here's an excerpt from A Manual of Photography By Mathew Carey Lea 1868:

"Jamin makes portrait lenses of which one lens unscrews, and may be used as a single view lens. This is a good arrangement, and the lenses, though not always first-rate, can be well recommended, and are very inexpensive. The same maker now makes a so-called " universal" lens, in which a number of separate lenses can be variously combined."

Also see http://classicshowcasecorp.com/2011/05/daguerreiantransitional-sliding-box-french-camera/

Dan

[goamules]

Thanks for the good quote Dan. Yeah, of all the companies in the early days, say 1840 through 1870, Jamin and Darlot seemed to branch out and try more things with their lenses. They weren't revolutionary changes, just alterations no one else seemed to bother with. Like the Cone or this "Can" type.

On your link, that lens looks a little suspect to me, doesn't it to you? Like a put together? The large, but simple engraving looks exactly like the later style on Magic Lantern lenses. It actually looks like a barrel from a ML, put together with a lot of other parts. I have seen this type before too, with the locking barrel knob. But not with this type of large, knurled knob. I'll look for a pic I have of one.

But back to the Cans, have you ever seen one of them?

[CCHarrison]

On your link, that lens looks a little suspect to me, doesn't it to you?.....

dont think so, I just think its a later Darlot version.... having said that see my other answer below

But back to the Cans, have you ever seen one of them?[/QUOTE]

In 20 years, I have held one and seen one other.....

Dan

[goamules]

I've heard from two other people that have one, here is one of them:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6122/5987838347_4c5055b0cf_z.jpg

[eddie]

I have a few Most look like the ones in dan's link.

I have two early jamin lenses that even have the "third" glass in the middle under the pill box. This allows u to use several combinations to get different FL.

I am at coffers jamboree now but will try to upload photos later( I can not do it with my I phone for some reason. )

Eddie

[Geoffrey_5995]

Just thought I would add to this thread. I have a "Can" type Jamin Darlot similar to the one pictured by itself above. The serial # of mine is 22,874. I can see the entire serial # of the one above but it looks like 22,XXX, so not far off from mine. This lens is cut for Waterhouse stops and still has one of it's stops. It also has the slip in stop insert that fits into the lens shade. Still has its original lens cap. Will try to get photos.

Geoff

[Emil Schildt]

I've been thinking about this one...

Is that one of those?

http://www.antiq-photo.com/spip.php?article1656

[goamules]

I see a couple knobs for converting on that one, but it doesn't have the wider diameter "can" in the rear. Darlot seemed to make a LOT of different configuration lenses. However, that also makes it easy for you to find mismatched lenses. I.E. pieces of one lens put on another. So you have to be careful and look closely at what you are buying.

[andrewch59]

I see a couple knobs for converting on that one, but it doesn't have the wider diameter "can" in the rear. Darlot seemed to make a LOT of different configuration lenses. However, that also makes it easy for you to find mismatched lenses. I.E. pieces of one lens put on another. So you have to be careful and look closely at what you are buying.

I have just purchased a Petzval type lens through ebay and have been scouring the net ever since, It is a Albion Albumenizing Co lens, made in France by Jamin. It measures 138mm tall, 110mm across the top and 90mm across the bottom. It has a waterhouse slot and has rack and pinion focus.
Seems to be a rare oddity!
regards

[Steven Tribe]

This must be ebay 181203274009.
"Quick acting Cabinet Portrait" "Made in France" for the company you mentioned in Glasgow.
From the dimension and the "focal length" he worked out, it sounds like a Cabinet size 2. Probably around 9 or 10".
How do you know it's a Jamin? Remember that most of Jamin lenses were made in the simple days before Waterhouse stops (pre 1858 ca.). There was a french company (not Jamin) who did import these into the UK and with a faster version for children (like Dallmeyer C series) but can't recall the name at the moment.
Making/selling plates and printed blanks for CdV and Cabinets was quite a business at this time, but like Rochester, many shops/shed producers were under-capitalised and mergers/closures were common.

[Geoffrey_5995]

Thought I'd add this to the thread.101273101274101275101276

[Geoffrey_5995]

More pics:101277101278101279101280

[Geoffrey_5995]

Last pic showing the Waterhouse stop that came with this lens. There is also a mount for disc stops that slips into the lens shade for use with the achromat. I purchased this lens a while back and the reemergence of this thread reminded me that I had a lens similar to the101281 can lenses discussed and shown here.

Geoff

[andrewch59]

This must be ebay 181203274009.
"Quick acting Cabinet Portrait" "Made in France" for the company you mentioned in Glasgow.
From the dimension and the "focal length" he worked out, it sounds like a Cabinet size 2. Probably around 9 or 10".
How do you know it's a Jamin? Remember that most of Jamin lenses were made in the simple days before Waterhouse stops (pre 1858 ca.). There was a french company (not Jamin) who did import these into the UK and with a faster version for children (like Dallmeyer C series) but can't recall the name at the moment.
Making/selling plates and printed blanks for CdV and Cabinets was quite a business at this time, but like Rochester, many shops/shed producers were under-capitalised and mergers/closures were common.
,
Will get back to you on the Jamin connection, I spent hours on the net trying to make a connection from Albion Albumenizing company and came across a small extract somewhere that mentioned Jamin. will check when I've got it, I think they worked out the focal length was 13 inch, will check that too, I am very much a novice as you might tell.

[Steven Tribe]

Here is some data:
It cannot be a Jamin agent as they first established in 1864!


Albion Albumenizing Company

THE ALBION ALBUMENIZING CO., 96, Bath Street, Glasgow.

Practitioners of the “dark art”, who, in these days, are not alchemists but photographers, are under great obligations to the Albion Albumenizing Company, Glasgow, for the improvements wrought by that Company in the manufacture of photographic requisites, and the fact that the Company supply everything incidental to photography.

The Company referred to was established in 1864. Photography then was in its infancy, for, though the art of securing sun pictures had been discovered, the methods in vogue then were exceedingly crude, and the results obtained, judged by existing standards, defective. Photographers, of course, were sorely handicapped at first by lack of knowledge concerning the best processes ; secondly by their lack of the best apparatus and best chemical aids. The business of photographic supply was, however, revolutionised when the Albion Albumenizing Company entered the field, and, during the twenty-seven years of the Company’s existence, it has kept pace with every new discovery, thus enabling its clients to procure every requisite whereby the most recent developments may be adopted, and the enterprising photographer finds himself up to date. To professional photographers this is a matter of vital importance, considering the pressure of competition and the exacting requirements of the public now-a-days. But there has come into existence during recent years a great army of amateur photographers, and they, also, are desirous not to be eclipsed by rivals ; they do not care to adhere to methods which have been superseded by better ones. The advantage of obtaining everything incidental to photography from one firm instead of getting one article here and another there must be obvious, and the numerous customers of the Albion Albumenizing Company appreciate the facilities placed at their disposal by it.

The Company under consideration is practically that of F. W. Verel & Co., and the manager is Mr. W. A. Verel, junior, a gentleman thoroughly conversant with the business and an able administrator. The premises in Bath Street, Glasgow, consist of warehouse and showroom, a dark room for the use of amateur photographers, offices, and workshop. The manufacturing part of the business is not situated here but at Cathcart, near Glasgow, where there are extensive works covering a large area of ground and employing numerous hands, manufacturing their well-known “Dry Plates” and “Ready Sensitized Paper”. It would be impossible, within reasonable limits, to describe or even to mention the numerous useful and ingenious contrivances made and supplied by the Company under notice, considering that the illustrated catalogue it issues, extends to seventy-six pages, including an index which itself occupies two pages.

Briefly speaking, however, it may be stated that they deal in all kinds of photographic apparatus, materials, and chemicals. A speciality is made of the Albion Long Focus Camera, with reversing back, for horizontal and vertical negatives, fitted with new double swing back arrangement which adds nothing to the weight and is easily adjusted. This camera is likewise fitted with rack and pinion focus, best leather bellows, rising front, and is very light and compact. Photographers, whether professional or amateur, will understand the value and practical utility of such an invention. A speciality is also made of the Albion Combination Long and Short Focus Camera, which will work with a three-inch focus lens, the body of the camera, following up the front, thus removing the drawback common to long focus cameras when using short focus lenses, the tail board cutting oft part of the picture. Both the appliances described are characterised by the best quality, workmanship, and finish, and as their merits become known, the demand for them persistently increases.

The firm’s connection, as may be inferred from the character of the trade and the completeness of their stock, is a very important one. It extends all over the United Kingdom, and by a no inconsiderable number orders are executed for customers abroad. The telegraphic address of the Glasgow establishment is “Albumen, Glasgow”, and of the works at Cathcart, “Matchless, Cathcart”.

Back to Index of Firms (1891)

They are mentioned in earlyphotography's list of UK companies on that website. They give also the various Glasgow addresses.
You may find pencil marks on the lenses which will give a clue as to maker.

[andrewch59]

Here is some data:
It cannot be a Jamin agent as they first established in 1864!



They are mentioned in earlyphotography's list of UK companies on that website. They give also the various Glasgow addresses.
You may find pencil marks on the lenses which will give a clue as to maker.

Thankyou for that Steve. I have been searching for the last couple of days for info, including going thru hundreds of pages from archives, but cant find a great deal, only that it seems to be a decent portrait lens for "children and nervous types" said to be great at 8 x 10 stopped down?
Will keep searching for answers,

[alex from holland]

Garrett,

I found myself one.
I was wondering if these versions are older than the "normal" cones?
Now i have a normal and a straight version in identical size. If it take out the back part the whole contruction is almost identical.
The straight one had no jamin or Darlot info on it but was owned by J. Wothly (a German photographer) who invented the Wothlytypie....
name is engraved. But the typical jamin "Vis a paysage and vis a portrait are engraved.

[goamules]

I don't know which came first, Alex, or if they both were made at the same time. Maybe the author of that book on French lenses, the guy in France, knows.

[andrewch59]

Quote from the book...According to Kingslake, it is a modified Petzval, since in the basic positon the design reoccurs with the separatable rear group. Fabre on the other hand, places it in the category of multiple focus lenses, together with Chevalier's Verres Combine's and Porro's Anallatic, pointing out its versatility. The versatility of the cone is also underscored by the inscription on the barrel "Paysage" and "portrait". Similar to the later lens "Objectif a foyer multiple et lentils additionelles di Derogy" from 1858, a divergent lens could be mounted at the center of the barrel on the appropriate threads. unquote.

from: Photographic Lenses of the 1800's in France by Corrado D'Agostini.

Looking at the Petzvals of Jamin in the book. He did make normal barrel Petzvals and I still maintain my Albion Albumenizing lens is a Jamin. It has been chromed methinks by a very enthusiastic collector.

[Steven Tribe]

I have checked D'Agostini's book this morning.

I quote -

"By the mid 1860's, cones were made in different shapes. Menchini reports that Darlot also adopted the cylinderical form for the centralising cone after 1865."
There is an example on page 133 with the "loose signature" engraving which was also used late in the Century, and with no serial number.

[andrewch59]

Hi Steven, I was particularly looking for paysage and portrait to link Alex's lens to Jamin/Darlot, does this engraving appear on other makers too?
The last paragraph was a quip thrown in about my chrome lens, I have searched the web for months to find the quote that states that the quick acting cdv portrait lens sold by the Albion Albumenizing company Glasgow was in fact made by Jamin. Cannot find the quote to substantiate the claim.
I have asked Corrado who cannot confirm. Its just a thorn in my side until I find that quote!

[brandon13]

140714 Not sure if anyone is interested in the visual qualities of this lens, but here is a 7.25" by 9.25" wet plate I made with the 13 inch f4.5 can type lens in the Original Post. It looks French.

[Steven Tribe]

Here is a new one - very heavily disguised. Described by a frequent lister (who should know better, as he has listed early lenses as projection lenses a few times before!) as a "reverse Petzval design". Obvious a can version - minus the short sleeve and hood!

Disregard the reported sale price!

I have had this lens in my hands now. It is clearly marked Jamin Darlot on the the rear lens and traces on the front achromat (Very faint due to much rebalsaming!) say the same.
There is no trace og paysage/portrait markings, the the barrel splits to reveal a mounting ring with an B mark. Which means there must have been a A ring! This ring B cannot support an extra lens. It is more like a base for mounting central stops for the Petzval function. The A ring might have been similar - but with a lens mounted. Or the A ring may have had the full barrel diameter and been a support for washer stops when the front part was used in Paysage mode. Darlot was still using black paper tape at this stage to blackout the mounted rack.

[Steven Tribe]

Will be adding some new info/photos during the next few hours - a lot to source but will just add on to this skeleton reply gradually. As this is most comprehensive thread on Jamin/Darlot innovations in the middle late 1850’s there is one other important relevant thread ... here.
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?154104-Adjustable-Spacing-in-Jamin-Darlot-Petzval-Lenses.
This includes,perhaps the best YouTube video from Eddie Gunks with a rare complete convertible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfFHw4mEkbs

I have “read” the section in the Booklet on Jamin and Darlot a number of times. I feel that not everything is made clear, perhaps due to my very imperfect French! There were a lot of patents/registered designs made between 1854 and 1860 which apply to the Convertible model (splits into two distinct halves), the Cone model (originally also with convertible status and which continued as a “prestige” model well into the Darlot alone era. Finally, there was the “Can” version (described in French as the “Cylindrique” version) They appeared in the period 54/60 and it is likely that all 3 versions were available at the same time.

Summing up the innovations (claims) were:

1 Reduction of “divergent” light rays compared with normal Petzval constructions (only applied to the can and cone models).

2 Reduction of aberrations through adjustment of the distance between the front and rear lens cell ( this applies to the non can/cone version as well).

Then there is the question of the 3rd lens and the central stop system. Fortunately I have 3 examples of the of the same lens and size from 3 different periods /engravings - early Jamin, Jamin Darlot and an anon. version (UK market).

The first figure shows the patent figures. The figure to the left shows the complete lens with the back looking like a usual Petzval. The front have contains the achromat and a extra simple meniscus (+,+) (called “C”) fixed at a distance in the front cell. The right hand figure shows how the front part can be pulled out and used as a landscape meniscus lens with lens “C” reducing the focal length.
The crude diagrams were obviously made at a very early stage in connection with the patent application - the final production brass mounting design is very complex and provides central stops with screwed mounting.

Eddie Gunks’ video shows the final mounting system developed by Jamin.

Unfortunately, this convertible early Darlot, along with the later Universal, must be about the most the frequent lenses found in very incomplete state with no photographic use whatsoever!