Pre wet Delta 100 or not?

[Jehu]

I've been assured that Ilford films don't require any presoaking. I've also heard that it's best to break that rule. Judging from my results without any presoaking, I probably ought to try it. Does anyone that has been down this road care to share an opinion?

[ic-racer]

Why do you want to pre-soak?

The picture posted looks like it needs to be printed on a higher contrast paper with less exposure. Pre-soaking slows development and will make the negatives even thinner. How do your negatives look?

[dsphotog]

Looks like a lot of uneveness on the image.
Short developing time can cause that... What processing method, developer & dev time did you use?
I always presoak & have never had that problem.

[Jehu]

The image I posted is a scan of the print on Ilford MG-IV. I printed it with settings for 2.5 contrast filtering. I made a total of three prints and they all have the same irregularities so I know that the negative is the problem.

I processed this one with HC-110. I don't remember the exact time but it wasn't short. I'm pretty sure It was about 6 minutes. The negative is pretty well balanced.

I used 2509 reels in a Jobo. It may have been the test tank or the bigger one. Is there a chance that this is from insufficient fluid volume? I'm learning that the volumes on the side of the Jobo tanks aren't really the best option.

Thanks for the comments guys.

[cyrus]

Pre-soaking supposedly makes development more even, or it washes away any dust that may be on the film, or appeases the Gods of development - take you pick for reasoning, but none have been proven to be true. I think really be best reason to presoak is to bring the temp of the developing reel/cannister to the same temp as the developer before you pour in the developer. And that's about it.

[tgtaylor]

Ilford doesn't recommend pre-rinsing Delta 100: "A pre-rinse is not recommended as it can lead to uneven development."

The volume printed on the Jobo tanks are the minimum amount of chemistry required to cover the film and has nothing to do with the amount of a particular developer to use. Check the films fact sheet for that information.

Thomas

[SergeyT]

I always pre-soak for 5 mins (2509 reels in a Jobo) on a rotary base. I also develop in HC-110. The only uneven development I see on my sheets are some narrow strips along the edges where the film touches the reels ... I'm thinking of switching to an expert drum to get rid of those strips

SergeyT.

[Ari]

I always pre-soak, no matter what film, or no matter the manufacturer's recommendations.
I only do it for one minute, enough for the film to get splashed.
Whether it's proven to help with evenness or not, my film has never looked uneven since I began doing it.

[Jehu]

When you presoak with the 2509 reels, do you fill the canister upright or just use the appropriate coverage amount of water and rotate in the processor?

[tgtaylor]

I always pre-soak for 5 mins (2509 reels in a Jobo) on a rotary base. I also develop in HC-110. The only uneven development I see on my sheets are some narrow strips along the edges where the film touches the reels ... I'm thinking of switching to an expert drum to get rid of those strips

SergeyT.

I doubt that those strips along the edge (in the sky) are due to the film touching the reel. There's something else going on there. I started getting them with hand inversion with that tank but they disappeared when I started rotary processing in the same tank. I think they are a result of improper volume or insufficient circular agitation which disappeared when I switched to rotary processing B&W. A tip off was they they never appeared on C-41 or E-6 sheets which I always rotary processed when using 2509N reels.

Thomas

[Ari]

When you presoak with the 2509 reels, do you fill the canister upright or just use the appropriate coverage amount of water and rotate in the processor?

Either works, but it's easier to use the same amount of water as you would developer or other chemicals.

[Jehu]

Thanks guys. I was in one of those failure-induced discouragement phases with my photography. The responses I got are encouraging. I'll plan on trying a higher volume of chemistry as well as a 1-minute rotary presoak.

Now I just need to go shoot something...

[Roger Cole]

When you presoak with the 2509 reels, do you fill the canister upright or just use the appropriate coverage amount of water and rotate in the processor?


Either works, but it's easier to use the same amount of water as you would developer or other chemicals.

I have a CPE2 (not plus) and always use the same amount of water as developer. The motors on the CPE2 (and plus, I think) series are none too strong to start with and I believe, without a lot to back this up except online hearsay (would that be "readsay?") that it's best to keep the load on them lower when possible. At any rate it seems to work fine. I read many years ago that the contrast increase of constant agitation rotary processing was almost exactly offset by a 5 minute presoak allowing use of the same developer times, at least as starting points. I've generally found that to be true, though I have no experience with Delta 100.

[Joel Truckenbrod]

I've never presoaked using BTZS tubes with Delta 100 (both 4x5 and 5x7), and I've never had a problem with any form of uneven development. I'm not sure what, if any, impact the developer would have on the process either; I personally use Xtol. Ensuring sufficient chemistry seems like a good starting point.

[morie]

I have a habit of pre-soaking films until I getting burned from some 8X10 Delta 100 uneven developments.
I kept second guessing myself and I did check Ilford's web-site which not indicated any pre-soaking procedure for their films.
I do not pre-soak my 8X10 Delta 100 anymore and never having any uneven development again.
I really don't know what is the right answer or not.
I am still pre-soaking all other kinds of films and I am using 3 1/2 gallons Kodak developing tank.

[Brian Ellis]

I never pre-soaked except as tests to see if it made any difference with D76 1-1 and the Ilford HP5+ and TMax 100 films I used. It didn't. I got even development with that developer and those films with pre-soaking and without. So I didn't see any reason to spend an extra few minutes standing around inhaling chemical fumes. When I first used PMK (pyro) the book I worked from said to presoak so I did. Then after a while I decided to try pyro without presoaking to see what would happen. Nothing did so I quit presoaking with pyro too.

I'd be amazed if pre-soaking accomplishes anything with Delta 100, especially in view of Ilford's recommendation to not pre-soak, but since I never used that film I don't know from personal experience. The example you posted has some problems but IMHO they're the result of something other than a failure to presoak.

[Jehu]

It looks like I need to double up on my shots and split processing methods. I'll post the results.

I have a couple of jobs up around Virginia City (Yes, the one near the Cartwrights ranch) today. That may be a good opportunity to shoot some test sheets.

[frednewman]

Hi Jehu

The only film processing method that I recommend not using a presoak is with the BTZS film tubes. With the BTZS tubes you start out by shaking the tubes for the first 10" and the developer quickly coats the emulsion. See the youtube.com video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMXQO5ATgiY.

With other methods, such as roll film in a tank that you invert or Jobo tanks that you use with a Jobo processor, it takes time for the developer to cover the emulsion. For these methods I recommend using a 5 minute presoak.

I remember when I was talking with Phil Davis and he was telling me that presoak vs no presoak can change film speeds and developing times.

I found this out when I did an article for Photo Techniques on 400 T-Max-2. I normally process most 4x5 films with Ilford DDX developer at a dilution of 1+9 at 75 degrees F. My cold water in the summer here in Arizona is usually between 85 and 90 degrees F, so no 68 degrees processing for me.

So when I did a BTZS film test with the BTZS 4x5 film tubes, a 1+9 dilution was fine, but when I did the same film and developer combination in a Jobo processor using the 3010 expert drum, with a 5 minute presoak, the contrast was too high at 1+9. I increased the dilution to 1+12 to get similar results. I also increased the amount of developer per sheet of film. Normally with the 4x5 BTZS tubes 2 oz of developer is what you use, but with the Ilford DDX diluted past 1+9 I doubled the volume of developer.

Sometime today I'll try to get a video up on youtube.com showing these 2 film tests. To find the videos on youtube.com, just do a search on the word "viewcamerastore".

Fred Newman

[photobymike]

Pre soaking does 3 things for me. 1 Makes the emulsion swell for even soaking by developer. 2 Brings the film to the temperature of your chemistry. 3 Removes the anti-halation barrier. (Comes out as dark green.) I use Jobo tanks and presoak for 5 minutes with all films including color. Never had any mottling or spotting...Whatever you do keep it consistent. I can develop film in my sleep and i often do.

"I love the smell of fixer in the morning."

http://www.mikepic.com

[frednewman]

Hi Jehu

I just posted a video with two film tests showing the difference between presoak vs no presoak on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WM2ldlD-L8.

The results all depend on the film and developer combination and the method your are using to process the film. With a film test you can find out the results very quickly.

Fred Newman

[photobymike]

WOW way to go fred... thanks for the time it took to test... thats why i hang out here... the question is now answered definitively with precision. thanks again.....

http://www.mikepic.com

[frednewman]

Hi Mike

Thanks - I just remember being surprised at the results of presoak and no presoak. I wasn't expecting such differences.

Fred

[cyrus]

There's a good practical reason to presoak for those of us who develop sheet film in trays is that it prevents the sheets from sticking together in the developer

[Jehu]

I tweaked the exposure, brightness and contrast to expose my problem a little better. The drip marks (or whatever they are) really show up on the enlargement. It ruined my print. I can fix it in Photoshop and print that way but I need to figure out what's causing this on the negatives. Any opinions?

[Greg Blank]

Are you using bi-directional rotation "auto reversing the drum"? Really required with the smaller Jobo drum and reels. & I will add after I went to using the two direction cycle with expert drums these kind of issues disappeared. Of course I also decided to give HC110 another try versus PMK I have used for 10+ years.


I tweaked the exposure, brightness and contrast to expose my problem a little better. The drip marks (or whatever they are) really show up on the enlargement. It ruined my print. I can fix it in Photoshop and print that way but I need to figure out what's causing this on the negatives. Any opinions?

[Mark Barendt]

I tweaked the exposure, brightness and contrast to expose my problem a little better. The drip marks (or whatever they are) really show up on the enlargement. It ruined my print. I can fix it in Photoshop and print that way but I need to figure out what's causing this on the negatives. Any opinions?

Looks like what I get when I don't get a good wash.

[Fotoguy20d]

I've had similar problems with HP5+ in HC-110 with a Combi-plan. First thing I did was I went to J Brunner's 1:49 solution, which extended processing time. Then I cut back to 4 sheets in the tank instead of 6. Then, while allowing the film to dry in the holder, I discovered that I'd have a portion of the negative completely dry and some of it still tacky. When that part finally dried, I'd have marks on the negative. I've started hanging my negatives with lots of airflow around them and/or drying them manually (with a hairdryer on a low/cool setting). That eliminated the problem for me. I've thought, as Mark just suggested, that it might be due to a poor wash causing the damp area to be chemically exposed longer. So, I do now rinse for a longer period.

Dan

[Greg Blank]

Keep blow drying that film and eventually you will see all kinds of crude appear in the emulsion. May not happen once or or the first 50 times, but eventually you will.

[Roger Cole]

Agree with Greg - I'd never blow dry film and would only allow forced air circulation if it were well filtered on the intake.

I hang my sheet film negatives in a portable closet thing from Ikea. Zip it shut and go away. They dry evenly and clean.