Jobo Processing B&W, C-41 and Ilfochome in same gear, any issues?

[Asher Kelman]

I'm about to be using Job pro drums, (3010,3005 and 3063) to process film and paper on a CPA-2. I'm wondering whether cross contamination of chemicals from different processes is something to look out for. So do I need to reserve one set of drums or bottles certain chemistry and are their any particular precautions to take. My interest is B&W, C-41 and Ilfochrome processing, but maybe there are others to consider too.

Spare bottles seems no big deal. Separate dedicated drums can be costly but if need be, that's what I'd do.

Thanks for your guidance.

Asher

[Nathan Potter]

Asher, I don't think so. I process E6, B&W and Ilfochrome in the same 8X10 drums. These are Ciba drums not Jobo but I can't say I see any issues. I do soak the drums in hot water for a short while after the Ciba processing, then with a thorough rinse because the Ciba bleach made me nervous, but I can't say that is even necessary.

OTOH I can't say my experience is definitive - only fairly certain.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[Asher Kelman]

Asher, I don't think so. I process E6, B&W and Ilfochrome in the same 8X10 drums. These are Ciba drums not Jobo but I can't say I see any issues. I do soak the drums in hot water for a short while after the Ciba processing, then with a thorough rinse because the Ciba bleach made me nervous, but I can't say that is even necessary.

OTOH I can't say my experience is definitive - only fairly certain.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

Thanks, Nathan,

This is a good start.

Asher

[Greg Blank]

Don't stabilize in the drums. Pyro developers may also stain the drum making it a problem for going back to E6. E6 is one of those process that almost requires a dedicated machine to do it right, in my opin. Not only are the drums at issue but also the Lift pouring spout and internal lift components, if those are not clean for E6 you will get color cast.

[photobymike]

The only rule i follow with my Drums is ... what Greg said "dont stabilize" or use photoflo ... they get sticky so it makes loading film more difficult. And your developer and other chemicals will foam up << bad really bad

[tgtaylor]

I have been processing E-6, C-41, B&W, and RA-4 in my CPA-2 without any problems. After each run I run two liters of hot water thru the lift before I drain and put away the unit. After sponging it dry, I let it air dry uncovered overnight after which I place the bottles and graduates that I also washed with hot water and left to dry over night back in their slots and then cover the whole with plastic laundry bags to prevent dust from settling in.

I have two sets of bottles and one of which I originally dedicated for E-6. However with 4 different processes that's really not practical so I have been placing the developers in the bottles marked "developer" and the bleaches in those marked "bleach" or "blix" and the fixes in the "blix" or "fix" bottles and so on.

As mentioned above, apply the stabilizer and photo-flo off processor and not in a drum. In my case I use a plastic container that originally contained sidewalk chalks that holds about 1 liter and in which you can submerge a reel or sheet of 4x5 film. I reuse the photo-flo and stabilizer and pour those back into a 1 liter container for storage and wash the chalk box out with hot water before storing it.

Thomas

[Asher Kelman]

Don't stabilize in the drums. Pyro developers may also stain the drum making it a problem for going back to E6. E6 is one of those process that almost requires a dedicated machine to do it right, in my opin. Not only are the drums at issue but also the Lift pouring spout and internal lift components, if those are not clean for E6 you will get color cast.
Greg,

Can Cibachrome be altered in the same way?

Asher

[Asher Kelman]

I have two sets of bottles and one of which I originally dedicated for E-6. However with 4 different processes that's really not practical so I have been placing the developers in the bottles marked "developer" and the bleaches in those marked "bleach" or "blix" and the fixes in the "blix" or "fix" bottles and so on.


tg,

Why not have 4 sets of bottles? Also can the funnel of the lift be readily swopped out?

Asher

[Greg Blank]

Having only done RA4 and R3000 I have no experience with Ciba. My knowledge is such that RA4 chemicals some incorporate the stabilzation component in the BLIX. Others such as are used in big mini lab machines have separated tank that hold just stablizer in water- the last step prior to drying. That is because most mini lab machine do not wash the print but chemically treat it so it does not not immediately discolor.

So my thought is that the Bleach component of the Ciba is fixing the image.


Greg,

Can Cibachrome be altered in the same way?

Asher

[tgtaylor]

tg,

Why not have 4 sets of bottles? Also can the funnel of the lift be readily swopped out?

Asher

Well you could, of course, but it's crowded enough with 12 bottles in my closet. You could also have 4 CPA's - one dedicated for each process - but as long as you wash thoroughly after each use and not allow the chemicals to dry on them you shouldn't have anything to worry about. In my experience only the developer containers become stained. In fact, just this afternoon I stopped at a local supplier to see if they carried Sulfuric Acid and Potassium bichromate or permanganate to make a tray cleaner to clean the developing trays and Jobo bottle. Looks like I'll have to order from the Formulary.

As far as the funnel I would think that barring physical damage swopping it out would be unnecessary. Again, the only chemical that leaves a stain is oxidized developer. But the developer is the first step in any process with the rinse/wash step being the last. I follow Jobo's recommendation of 1 change of water every 30 seconds so the funnel gets a good rinsing with every run as well as my 2 liter rinsing with hot water at the end.

Thomas

[Asher Kelman]

I thought this might be hardly used but was surprised to get delivery of a brand new CAP-2 From eBay!



http://openphotographyforums.com/2007_OPF_AK/Asher_Kelman_2007/Screen shot 2011-07-25 at 10.41.07 PM.jpg


The great thing is that is the version after 22,000 so it should have the stronger motor and latest circuit boards!


http://openphotographyforums.com/2007_OPF_AK/Asher_Kelman_2007/Screen shot 2011-07-25 at 10.41.33 PM.jpg

So now I need a lift and the various 3005 and 3063 tanks and I'm a prince!

Asher

[Asher Kelman]

Well you could, of course, but it's crowded enough with 12 bottles in my closet. You could also have 4 CPA's - one dedicated for each process - but as long as you wash thoroughly after each use and not allow the chemicals to dry on them you shouldn't have anything to worry about. In my experience only the developer containers become stained. In fact, just this afternoon I stopped at a local supplier to see if they carried Sulfuric Acid and Potassium bichromate or permanganate to make a tray cleaner to clean the developing trays and Jobo bottle. Looks like I'll have to order from the Formulary.

As far as the funnel I would think that barring physical damage swopping it out would be unnecessary. Again, the only chemical that leaves a stain is oxidized developer. But the developer is the first step in any process with the rinse/wash step being the last. I follow Jobo's recommendation of 1 change of water every 30 seconds so the funnel gets a good rinsing with every run as well as my 2 liter rinsing with hot water at the end.

Thomas

Thanks for the practical advice. Now do you use an electric drier or just hang the prints. And at what stage do you use photoflo?

Do I need a print washer after processing in the drums?

Asher

[Drew Wiley]

The fix Ciba uses is ordinary non-hardening fixer, so no issues with that. The developer cause no problems either. The bleach is corrosive but won't damage plastic drums. I always do a brief rinse cycle between bleach and fix anyway, then make sure the bleach is dumped into a little plastic bucket with baking soda in it to neutralize the acid before disposal. At the end of the session I make sure all the drum components are rinsed out well and dry for the next session. Pretty simple. The biggest problem with a Jobo processor and Ciba is that the RPM is a bit high and the bleach can become overoxidated, which can slightly affect the saturation of blue vs yellow, but that's an advanced problem which shouldn't hinder basic use. Taming the pallette of
Ciba requires masking skills anyway.

[Asher Kelman]

The biggest problem with a Jobo processor and Ciba is that the RPM is a bit high and the bleach can become overoxidated, which can slightly affect the saturation of blue vs yellow, but that's an advanced problem which shouldn't hinder basic use. Taming the pallette of
Ciba requires masking skills anyway.

Thanks Drew,

So can one slow down the processor with some rheostat or replace the existing on with a great resistance range? Am I right that the dial for speed is changing resistance or is it via gears?

Asher

[Drew Wiley]

The RPM on the Jobo won't be an issue except with Ciba bleach and certain kinds of
pyro development. The motor is fairly small and doesn't seem to have the necessary
torque to handle rheostatic control with the weight of larger filled drums. So it's really
a gearing issue. The Ciba bleach gets a little too frothy and the "self-masking" chemical
feature goes a bit overboard, resulting in slightly muddy yellows and undersaturated blues. You might be able to inject argon gas into the drum during this step. I don't think shortening the bleach time will help, but you could try. You can wash the prints in the drum as long as they have ribs to get the water behind too. But I recommend a
brief additional wash in a tray or slot washer afterwards. For RA4 I change the water
in the drum six times (more than recommended, but better safe than sorry), then rinse
the front and back of the print wish a dkrm hose before I squeegee it. For Ciba I allow
at least six extra minutes in a tray with a Kodak siphon attachment. Ciba prints and
RC prints wash much faster than fiber-based prints. Jobo drums are a bit complex, so
you should rinse each component thorougly the blast the remaining water out with an
airgun from the compressor, unless there is adequate time for simple air drying of the
parts.

[tgtaylor]

Thanks for the practical advice. Now do you use an electric drier or just hang the prints. And at what stage do you use photoflo?

Do I need a print washer after processing in the drums?

Asher

I use a print dryer to dry RA-4 prints and B&W RC and air dry on screens for B&W fiber.

Photo-Flo is the very last step after the drum is opened and the film removed from the reels. Until recently I was immersing the reel for 120 sized film in the chalk tank that I use but recently I mistakenly removed a roll from the reel before I had dunked the reel in the Photo-Flo. I gently rolled-up the film and submerged it in the Photo-Flo and did the same with the other roll still on the reel. I have now adopted that as my regular procedure and no longer have to worry about build-up of Photo-Flo on the reels. This is a personal relief as I have been using only a couple of the 2500 series reels out of the dozen I have that are new.

I wash color RA-4 prints in the drum while on the processor. I follow Jobo's recommendation and use 3 changes of water at 30 seconds each except that the last change is a bit longer as that is my cue to walk back to the bathroom and turn the heat up on the dryer. I find that it takes about 45 seconds to dry an 8x10 RC print and correspondingly longer for 11x14, and 16x20 – the maximum size my dryer can do. Since I usually tray process B&W RC and fiber, I wash them in separate trays after processing or in a 20x24 print washer that I purchased specifically for large fiber prints. Try not to let your B&W RC prints go too long in the water before the final wash as a long immersion results in tattered edges. When a few prints build-up in the holding tray I will wash and dry those before printing more. Using a non-acid fixer such as TF 3, 4, or 5 allows for a shorter wash time - especially for RC.

Thomas

[Asher Kelman]

The RPM on the Jobo won't be an issue except with Ciba bleach and certain kinds of
pyro development. The motor is fairly small and doesn't seem to have the necessary
torque to handle rheostatic control with the weight of larger filled drums. So it's really
a gearing issue. The Ciba bleach gets a little too frothy and the "self-masking" chemical
feature goes a bit overboard, resulting in slightly muddy yellows and undersaturated blues. You might be able to inject argon gas into the drum during this step. I don't think shortening the bleach time will help, but you could try. You can wash the prints in the drum as long as they have ribs to get the water behind too. But I recommend a
brief additional wash in a tray or slot washer afterwards. For RA4 I change the water
in the drum six times (more than recommended, but better safe than sorry), then rinse
the front and back of the print wish a dkrm hose before I squeegee it. For Ciba I allow
at least six extra minutes in a tray with a Kodak siphon attachment. Ciba prints and
RC prints wash much faster than fiber-based prints. Jobo drums are a bit complex, so
you should rinse each component thorougly the blast the remaining water out with an
airgun from the compressor, unless there is adequate time for simple air drying of the
parts.

Drew,

Is Argon just cleaner than Nitrogen that's generally avaialble? I've no experience with Argon or how expensive it is, but Nitrogen is pretty inexpensive. Just need a water bubble trap to catch any particulates or oil from the tank. I have the CPA-2. I've read about the use of an external circulator to control the temp more precisely.

Asher

[Drew Wiley]

Nitrogen should work fine too; but I'd simply try the equipment as-is before fussing with that. The most important thing with the temp is to preheat the drum inside with
water the correct temp prior to development. And don't run the drum in especially cold
weather. Greater solution volumes (esp dev) will also help maintain temp. Ciba needs
3-min steps. For RA4, I use 2-min (shorter than that, and it becomes difficult to fill and
drain without affecting consistency). RA-4 isn't terribly stinky, but people do get quite sensitized to it, so don't let it fool you. It needs serious ventilation. With Ciba you just have the bleach to worry about (contains sulfamic acid for P-30, sulfuric for p-3).

[Asher Kelman]

Nitrogen should work fine too; but I'd simply try the equipment as-is before fussing with that. The most important thing with the temp is to preheat the drum inside with
water the correct temp prior to development. And don't run the drum in especially cold
weather. Greater solution volumes (esp dev) will also help maintain temp. Ciba needs
3-min steps. For RA4, I use 2-min (shorter than that, and it becomes difficult to fill and
drain without affecting consistency). RA-4 isn't terribly stinky, but people do get quite sensitized to it, so don't let it fool you. It needs serious ventilation. With Ciba you just have the bleach to worry about (contains sulfamic acid for P-30, sulfuric for p-3).

Drew,

That's great advice. I'll put a monster air exhaust in the window.

Do you use Argon or just don't use Ciba chemistry?

Asher

[Asher Kelman]

I use a print dryer to dry RA-4 prints and B&W RC and air dry on screens for B&W fiber.

Photo-Flo is the very last step after the drum is opened and the film removed from the reels. Until recently I was immersing the reel for 120 sized film in the chalk tank that I use but recently I mistakenly removed a roll from the reel before I had dunked the reel in the Photo-Flo. I gently rolled-up the film and submerged it in the Photo-Flo and did the same with the other roll still on the reel. I have now adopted that as my regular procedure and no longer have to worry about build-up of Photo-Flo on the reels. This is a personal relief as I have been using only a couple of the 2500 series reels out of the dozen I have that are new.

I wash color RA-4 prints in the drum while on the processor. I follow Jobo's recommendation and use 3 changes of water at 30 seconds each except that the last change is a bit longer as that is my cue to walk back to the bathroom and turn the heat up on the dryer. I find that it takes about 45 seconds to dry an 8x10 RC print and correspondingly longer for 11x14, and 16x20 – the maximum size my dryer can do. Since I usually tray process B&W RC and fiber, I wash them in separate trays after processing or in a 20x24 print washer that I purchased specifically for large fiber prints. Try not to let your B&W RC prints go too long in the water before the final wash as a long immersion results in tattered edges. When a few prints build-up in the holding tray I will wash and dry those before printing more. Using a non-acid fixer such as TF 3, 4, or 5 allows for a shorter wash time - especially for RC.

Thomas

Thomas,

What print dryers and mesh drying trays do you use? I like your idea of dunking for the Poto-flo.

Asher

[Drew Wiley]

I still do Ciba sometimes. But I don't use a Jobo and don't need to use any inert gas. My own drum processor has an industrial gearmotor which can be set at low RPM when needed, with plenty of power to spare, even for a 30x40 drum.

[Asher Kelman]

I still do Ciba sometimes. But I don't use a Jobo and don't need to use any inert gas. My own drum processor has an industrial gearmotor which can be set at low RPM when needed, with plenty of power to spare, even for a 30x40 drum.


Drew,

So what drums and rollers do you then use and are you just relying on the mass of liquid and the correct temp to maintain itself pretty well during the process?

I love the idea of a 30x40 drum. I have a set of print draws just for that size!

Asher

[Drew Wiley]

Like most of my equipment, it's something I modified. I started out with a CPI roller base - but these are almost impossible to acquire now. Several people on this forum
have attempted to build their own. I feel pretty embarassed because I still need to open up my processor and provide some shots of the gearing for them. But I've been
using it and never open up the seals until routine annual maintenance inspection is due. But it's simple in principle and anyone with basic shop skils could build something
equivalent. There are two parallel stainless steel rods, each equipped with adjustable rubber friction rings, though I added an eccentric too. One of these rods is passive and the other connected to a right-angle gearmotor. Add bi-directional switching and
a speed control. The whole thing sits it a moulded trough similar to the Jobo, just bigger. The drums are noryl plastic, which retains heat well, and they load and drain
must faster than Jobo drums. But you could make drums out of ABS industrial drain
pipe. But the unit will handle just about anyone's drums: DevTech, Jobo, Ciba, CPI, etc. The chemical bottles are brought to correct temp in a separate tempering box or water bath.

[Asher Kelman]

Like most of my equipment, it's something I modified. I started out with a CPI roller base - but these are almost impossible to acquire now. Several people on this forum
have attempted to build their own. I feel pretty embarassed because I still need to open up my processor and provide some shots of the gearing for them. But I've been
using it and never open up the seals until routine annual maintenance inspection is due. But it's simple in principle and anyone with basic shop skils could build something
equivalent. There are two parallel stainless steel rods, each equipped with adjustable rubber friction rings, though I added an eccentric too. One of these rods is passive and the other connected to a right-angle gearmotor. Add bi-directional switching and
a speed control. The whole thing sits it a moulded trough similar to the Jobo, just bigger. The drums are noryl plastic, which retains heat well, and they load and drain
must faster than Jobo drums. But you could make drums out of ABS industrial drain
pipe. But the unit will handle just about anyone's drums: DevTech, Jobo, Ciba, CPI, etc. The chemical bottles are brought to correct temp in a separate tempering box or water bath.
Drew,

I guess the key is the motor and the controller for speed. So what unit did you choose for that, or was it the original motor? I'd love to know the model!

Asher

[Drew Wiley]

I'd have to open the unit to look at the exact gearmotor model; but it's a standard US
product, and besides, Grainger has plenty of suitable gearmotors. You just have to select one amenable to speed control. The stainless rods, rollers, etc are available from
McMaster. The electronics are original, but are also US products and should be avail from electronics houses. The circuit board was proprietary, but that kind of thing can
be jerryrigged too.

[Ari]

Follow-up question:
I have a Jobo 2551 and motor base that I've only used for B&W;
I plan on developing C-41 soon using the Tetenal Press Kit.

Anything to look out for in terms of chemical contamination or danger to the tank/reels?
Is a rinse between B&W and C-41 enough?
Thanks

[Robert Hughes]

What's the difference between a B&W motor base and a color one?

[Ari]

What's the difference between a B&W motor base and a color one?

Um, nothing; I was just pointing out that i use a motor base rather than the CPP unit mentioned in this thread.
I worded my sentence rather poorly, I guess.
Forget the roller base, will the different chemicals affect anything adversely? Anyone?
Thanks

[Drew Wiley]

With automated roller-transport processors, the components need to be more corrosion
resistant than for RA4 use; but with most drum processors, the Ciba chemicals are only
in contact with the plastic of the drum itself or the drain apparatus. Ciba bleach won't
bother plastics. The bleach fumes might rust any metal hardware in the vicinity unless
its high quality 300-grade stainless, but if you've got that many fumes floating around,
you're own lungs are going to be a mess first. There were some old Kodak RA4 drum
processors, and perhaps a couple of others, which had metal components susceptible
to damage; but these are probably so rare now that no one is still using them. If you
make your own roller system, it's important to keep the gearmotor and electronics
well away from any potential splash or fumes activity, either by sheer distance or
prefeably through the use of watertight gaskets and plastic bearings. The drive shafts
should be 300-grade stainless, with rubber drive rollers.

[Asher Kelman]

With automated roller-transport processors, the components need to be more corrosion
resistant than for RA4 use; but with most drum processors, the Ciba chemicals are only
in contact with the plastic of the drum itself or the drain apparatus. Ciba bleach won't
bother plastics. The bleach fumes might rust any metal hardware in the vicinity unless
its high quality 300-grade stainless,

Drew,

You've got me worried about using my new Jobo Processor CPA-2! The plastic will be O.K., but what about the lift?

Asher

[Daniel Stone]

Asher, the lift will be fine, its primarily plastic parts anyhow. If you're THAT worried about it, don't use it, and just pour in/out chemicals by lifing out the drum(remove the lift and use 25/2800 series print drums instead of the 3000-series drums(which you need the lift for)). Its not as "efficient" as using the lift, but it works.

-Dan

[Drew Wiley]

Lots of folks have used these Jobo processors for Ciba with no maintenance issues.
I wouldn't be worried. The main problem with the lift is that it just isn't that strong
if you have large solution volumes in the drum.

[Nathan Potter]

I still do Ciba sometimes. But I don't use a Jobo and don't need to use any inert gas. My own drum processor has an industrial gearmotor which can be set at low RPM when needed, with plenty of power to spare, even for a 30x40 drum.

Like Drew I use a home built processor for doing Ilfochrome - built before I knew Jobo existed. Image below. It uses an inverted Unicolor driver remounted in a PVC box and hinged so that it can be swung over and down to contact the drum. The drum rotates in a temperature controlled water bath where the height of the water is adjusted to cover the lower part of the drum but not enter through the fill and drain openings. The drum rotates on nylon bearings that are submerged in the water bath. Material is 3/8 inch grey PVC put together with stainless machine screws. Joints unsealed so they leak some drops of tempering water into the darkroom sink but that's largely irrelevant.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6079/6085915271_f81c2cf1ef_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/argiolus/6085915271/)
processor-2 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/argiolus/6085915271/) by hypolimnas (http://www.flickr.com/people/argiolus/), on Flickr

[Asher Kelman]

Like Drew I use a home built processor for doing Ilfochrome - built before I knew Jobo existed. Image below. It uses an inverted Unicolor driver remounted in a PVC box and hinged so that it can be swung over and down to contact the drum. The drum rotates in a temperature controlled water bath where the height of the water is adjusted to cover the lower part of the drum but not enter through the fill and drain openings. The drum rotates on nylon bearings that are submerged in the water bath. Material is 3/8 inch grey PVC put together with stainless machine screws. Joints unsealed so they leak some drops of tempering water into the darkroom sink but that's largely irrelevant.



Wonderful and practical ingenuity, Nathan!

Can you process film too in the 3063 drum?

Asher

[Nathan Potter]

I've done 8X10 film in the 8X10 Ciba drums both Tmax and Technical Pan up until several years ago and a lot of Kodalith Ortho before that. Now all 4X5 is done in SS tanks dip and dunk or tray using bent 4X5 film hangers so I don't get my hand in the soup. Don't mess with 8X10 anymore.

Exact temperature control is tricky in TX. especially this year. Incoming tap water reached 90 degrees for the first time ever this year so I have to cool to about 80 and keep the darkroom about 80 during processing. Use a dehumidifier to control sweat.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[Asher Kelman]

On a related note, is water rinse fine or does one really need a special cleaner after use of a Jobo processor or is this just between chemistries. If so, which ones kill another?

With my brand new CPA:2 there's 2 packages of Processor Clean II. What is the formula for this and is this recommended or something else. Warns of fumes and need for protective clothing. I'd have thought just providing the ingredients would have been the ethical thing for a MFR to do.

Thanks,

Asher

[Daniel Stone]

Asher,

Just use HOT water, and then make sure the drum(s) are DRY before loading the next exposed sheet in. Same thing when using RA-4 or B/W papers, or film. Less(well, zero chance if bone dry) of streaking if no chemicals are left between runs, even water.

Using HOT water helps it to evaporate faster too, and if you have a fan or something blowing through/into the tube(or a hairdryer), that'll help speed things up too.

Having multiple drums helps too, unless you only have one print you're working on. Since Ilfochrome is ~20min process from start to finish(including washes), you'll have plenty of time to dry the prior drum, make your exposure, and load it up once the other one is finished washing.

Processor Clean:
Use the packets ONLY if you're finicky about how your processor looks, cosmetically. There's multiple threads here and on APUG about using other solutions(store-bought and home-brew) for cleaning out silver deposits(from developer trays for instance), or for crusted-on chemicals in the bottom of Jobo 1L bottles. I never leave chemicals in a bottle unless its enough to use for a run/process, I just drain it, and wash out the bottle thoroughly. Less headaches that way IMO.

-Dan

[Asher Kelman]

Having multiple drums helps too, unless you only have one print you're working on. Since Ilfochrome is ~20min process from start to finish(including washes), you'll have plenty of time to dry the prior drum, make your exposure, and load it up once the other one is finished washing.



Daniel,

It just dawned on me about the need for multiple drums, especially the 3063 for 20x24. I guess one can put each sheet in a film safe during a shoot. I think I should have a machine that I can feed prints into and a benefactor to pay for that!

Asher