IT8 targets

[Rider]

I would like to start using IT8 targets.

They do not seem to be so widely available any more. And they prices vary widely. What do people think of the lower priced ones? I know you get what you pay for, but I am not going to pay more than I paid for my scanner!

[Peter De Smidt]

I have Wolf Faust's targets. They work well for me.

[Mark Stahlke]

Another vote for Wolf Faust's targets. (http://www.targets.coloraid.de/)

[Rider]

How many IT8 targets do you find it necessary to have?

I have shot mostly E-6, both Fuji and Kodak. I also have a very small number of Kodachromes.

Is it really helpful to have a target for each Fuji film (Sensia, Provia etc.)?

[Joanna Carter]

How many IT8 targets do you find it necessary to have?

I have shot mostly E-6, both Fuji and Kodak. I also have a very small number of Kodachromes.

Is it really helpful to have a target for each Fuji film (Sensia, Provia etc.)?
There are definitely differences in the targets and I find if I were to use a profile generated from a different film that the colours are not as true as with the profile from the appropriate target.

[Peter De Smidt]

S1 is a pretty good deal for $80.

[Rider]

Peter, S1 is good for 35mm. Can I use it for LF as well?

[Joanna Carter]

Peter, S1 is good for 35mm. Can I use it for LF as well?
IMHO, the smaller targets are on a different film base; better to stick with the 4x5 sizes

[Rider]

IMHO, the smaller targets are on a different film base; better to stick with the 4x5 sizes

That is true, I had not thought of that. On the other hand, I am using an Epson 4990 flatbed, not an Imacon. So I have to weigh how much of an impact the profile will make.

Assuming the 35mm targets are not optimal for 4x5, do you think (or just guess) that they will make matters worse or just not [a lot] better?

[Joanna Carter]

That is true, I had not thought of that. On the other hand, I am using an Epson 4990 flatbed, not an Imacon. So I have to weigh how much of an impact the profile will make.

Assuming the 35mm targets are not optimal for 4x5, do you think (or just guess) that they will make matters worse or just not [a lot] better?
I know they cost more in 4x5 but they are individually measured rather than a bulk job.

Personally, I think, with the very small patch size of the smaller neg, you could get spillover between patches. Again, personally, I went for the 4x5 and am very happy with them ;)

[Peter De Smidt]

Yes, you can use S1 with LF. When I bought my targets, I discussed this with Mr. Faust, and the results were that I bought the S1 set. I do use them with 35mm, 120, and LF. I'm happy with them. I haven't noticed any "spillover" problems.

[Professional]

Regardless of the price, which one i should go with? I have V750, but i keep always eyeing to get a drum scanner in the future, but let's say if i didn't, then only Epson, which Target of that Faust collection i should get for my 120 and LF?

[rdenney]

Regardless of the price, which one i should go with? I have V750, but i keep always eyeing to get a drum scanner in the future, but let's say if i didn't, then only Epson, which Target of that Faust collection i should get for my 120 and LF?

The V750 comes with one 4x5 target already, as part of the XRite software that is bundled with it.

I also bought some 35mm slides from Faust for my Nikon scanner, which won't take the 4x5 target, and I use those profiles for 120 film also. I don't need precision--it just needs to look the way I want it to look--so I haven't been too precise in getting targets for every single type of film. Those doing prepress and stuff like that need as exact a match as possible with the least effort, and for them very precise color calibration and profiling is worth the effort. The Faust V3 and N3 targets are enough for me--I use Velvia 50, Velvia 100F, and the newer Astia, at least when I use transparency film.

There are no targets I know of for color negatives, which is much of what I use. I just have to fix that by hand.

Rick "who likes the range of negative film, but not its fiddly scanning" Denney

[Sevo]

There are no targets I know of for color negatives, which is much of what I use. I just have to fix that by hand.


Negative scanning never got separately standardized, and the IT8 system lacks a definition of a negative stage (or indeed any uncorrectable intermediate stages).

You can ignore the negative and directly calibrate the positive scans themselves, if you feel like subtracting the target bias values of each of some hundred tiles by hand (if you don't you'd arrive at a profile that combines the target and film, which would obviously only be useful when reproducing the former).

Or you can use a digital camera calibration system like the Camera Calibration software now free with ColorChecker cards - it can be (ab)used for film too, and will simplify the process to little more than photographing the test card, feeding the scan to the software and writing a film identification into the camera column of each scan file header.

[SergeyT]

I think type of film used for IT8 target is not critical at all.
The precision of target readings, workflow and the quality of the software used for scanning and profile generation are.

Regarding the size of the target - get the largest that you can afford and your scanner can handle.

I do not quite get the concern about Negative "profiling". What is the goal? If to reproduce the film characteristics then the "regular" scanner profiling should do (with any good IT8 or HCT target). We profile the scanners to properly reproduce the colors represented on the scanned film.
We do not shoot Velvia to get the Astia look or do we ?

If to reproduce true colors of the photographed subject then it is a totally different story and not necessarily related to scanning.

SergeyT

[neil poulsen]

The number of patches can make a big different. Also, the larger the color gamut of the target, the larger the color gamut of the final image. Otherwise, the image's gamut can be clipped to that of the target.

The best of which I'm aware are the Hutchcolor targets at the following address. They have about 540 patches of color.

www.hutchcolor.com

They come with their own custom reference file for that particular target. (They do not come with the spectral decompositions.)

[Professional]

Yes, but i heard that it is not the best target to use, i want to use for positive or negative films whatever it help, i managed to have beautiful color with both, but few times i feel the color is off, mostly with positive[slide] films.

[Rider]

I do not quite get the concern about Negative "profiling". What is the goal?


I've read that some people photograph the IT-8 target with the negative film of their choosing, and that exposure effectively becomes a kind of profile of the negative.

[mitomac]

Hi,

I would definitely recommend the it8 targets from wolf faust (or any similar targets). I was skeptical at first and held off buying one for my scanner. However, scans never looked like the slides. Everything was muddy on my v700 and just blah. You could correct in photoshop but it was always an artistic endeavor and still remained far from the original. Enter the it8 targets from Wolf. I skipped the built in vuescan profiling and instead used the command line oriented Argyll tools to profile the scanner. I was able to quickly make some working profiles and presto - greens are vibrant, skies are blue and life is good. The resulting profiles also make use of the gray scale gradient and true black and white points to adjust the shadows and highlights etc. For example, the scanner may not have a linear response between 'dark' and 'darker', yet after profiling everything is nicely defined and the slides just pop - retaining shadow detail and highlights. Simply put, I'm sold! I bought the 4x5 astia targets and will also purchase the 4x5 velvia target when available.

cheers,

mitomac

[Laron]

Hi,

I was also thinking of calibrating my V700 to get maybe better results. I have read the comments but Im a bit confused what to do or even if its woth it...

so does it makes any sense to calibrate the scanner for negatives (too)?
if so, is it matters which type of slide I buy? kodak or fuji? (for example here they have just these options: https://www.silverfast.com/order/en.html?productline=scanner&special=it8order_no_sf )

Im guessing if there is any minor/major color shifts or curves differences "built in" the scanner originally, that would affect any type of transparencies. that would be great to get rid of that difference...

then I guess I would get the different characteristics/mood of the different films, so thats just perfect?

or is this not that easy?

thanks!

[Peter De Smidt]

If you are scanning slides, then yes it is worth it to get IT8 targets on the type of film that you'll be scanning. The type of film does make a big difference. For instance, you don't want to use an Ektachrome profile for Fuji Velvia.

IT8 slides are not available for color negative films. However, you can use something like: http://spyder.datacolor.com/product-cb-spydercheckr.php and treat an inverted scan of a color negative film as if it were a file from a digital camera. You can then use the Datacolor software to make a profile.

[Laron]

thanks! But something is still not clear to me...

So lets for example say my scanner scans everything a bit offsetted/different color curves in a way.

No matter what thing I scan, the scanned rgb values will be offseted always the same amount no?

so I assume if I correct that offset based on an it8 slide with the corresponding target, that would give me the difference/ the correction what should be applied, no?

then if I have corrected that offset, isnt it possible to use that correction to any other type? As the offset/difference in the scanned rgb values are the same (comes from the factory), wont behave differently based on what I put underneath, no?

so basically if I correct one particular color (let it be on any type of film) to its relevant target (which is the important no?), I would get the correction value which I can apply later to any other type of film. So at the end I wont get the same "red" for each film, rather a factory default curve corrected one no?

I think I might totally not understanding the whole idea... please forgive me, still just learning the whole thing...

[Pete B]

If you are scanning slides, then yes it is worth it to get IT8 targets on the type of film that you'll be scanning. The type of film does make a big difference. For instance, you don't want to use an Ektachrome profile for Fuji Velvia.

IT8 slides are not available for color negative films. However, you can use something like: http://spyder.datacolor.com/product-cb-spydercheckr.php and treat an inverted scan of a color negative film as if it were a file from a digital camera. You can then use the Datacolor software to make a profile.

Could you go through this again, Peter? Take a photo of the IT8 target then put the negative on the scanner and invert with the scanner software (?)......

Oh, I think I got my answer here (http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/photography/spydercheckr.html) . Would I be right thinking that, as the white balancing preset seems to involve camera raw, the spydercheckr couldn't be used for TIFFS from a scanner?
Pete

Pete

[Peter De Smidt]

so I assume if I correct that offset based on an it8 slide with the corresponding target, that would give me the difference/ the correction what should be applied, no?
..

Unfortunately, no. How your scanner reads colors will vary a bit from emulsion to emulsion. It's the interaction of your scanner the the different dyes that matter. That interaction may lead to your scanner being a little too cyan in one color on film X, while being, for example, a little magenta with the closest tone on film Y.

The way to know this for sure is to look at how the profiles made with targets made on different films vary. I have profiles for Velvia, Ektachrome, Kodachrome ...., and I assure you that one profile does not fit all. If you have the file in Photoshop and assign the different profiles you can clearly see the difference.

[Peter De Smidt]

Could you go through this again, Peter? Take a photo of the IT8 target then put the negative on the scanner and invert with the scanner software (?)......

Oh, I think I got my answer here (http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/photography/spydercheckr.html) . Would I be right thinking that, as the white balancing preset seems to involve camera raw, the spydercheckr couldn't be used for TIFFS from a scanner?
Pete

Pete

There are no IT8 targets for color negative film, but there are all sorts of profiling systems for digital cameras. So what I'm suggesting is pretending that the scan of the negative is from a digital camera. Since the profiling software will expect a positive image, the negative scan needs to be inverted, if you scanned it as a positive, whether in the scanning software, Photoshop....wherever, and then brought into the profiling software. It would be worth testing as to whether scanning as a negative or positive gives a better result.

At your link, Keith says: "Once I've processed the RAW file from my Canon 1Ds3, I can save it as a TIFF file for analysis.

I've set the white balance during conversion, by using the light grey patch E2.

The software has one basic function - it processes an image of the target."

So you get your scan. If you've scanned as a negative, then the file will be inverted and the orange mask will be gone. You can then bring the image into Lightroom or Adobe camera raw, and use the white balance tool on one of the light gray tones. (Not the white tone.) Open the file in Photoshop and save it. Now open it the profiling software and make a profile.

If you scanned the negative as a positive, you will then have to invert the file, and then the steps would be the same. It might be worth also trying creating a curves adjustment layer in color mode after the inversion, and using the eyedroppers in the curve dialogue box to neutralize the grayscale patches. Flatten the image and save. You could then run a profile.

Note, though, that this process will try to make your film as accurate as possible. Sometimes we don't want accuracy! For example, someone shooting with Velvia, or for color negative film, Agfa Ultra 50, doesn't want neutrality! If they did, they'd be shooting something like one of the portrait films.

If someone does want to go this route, get the spyderCheckrPro. This will come with the spyder cube, which has a shadowed black. That would minimize the chance of clipping shadow detail.

[Laron]

thanks Peter, I think Im getting understand now a bit more clear!