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nonuniform
19-Jul-2011, 14:39
I've been considering shooting some B&W film again. Someone gave me a 50-sheet box of Efke 100.

I used to do all of my 4x5 film in trays (1:71 HC110...if you must know!), but, I'm in an apartment, and happen to have the option of a stainless tank with reel for 4x5 sheet film.

I will end up testing various techniques for agitation and development times, but I would love some suggestions!

Thanks!

cyrus
19-Jul-2011, 15:01
I've been considering shooting some B&W film again. Someone gave me a 50-sheet box of Efke 100.

I used to do all of my 4x5 film in trays (1:71 HC110...if you must know!), but, I'm in an apartment, and happen to have the option of a stainless tank with reel for 4x5 sheet film.

I will end up testing various techniques for agitation and development times, but I would love some suggestions!

Thanks!

You'll get a variety of responses because it is a personal preference more than anything else. Personally I only like trays and have never gotten even results with tanks. I don't particularly like hangers either because I get surge marks from the holes in the metal frames. But since I don't like sticking my hands in the developer (and raising the temp) either, I came up with this solution: simply take a 4x5 hanger, bend the handle part so the film-holding part lays flat on the bottom of a tray while the hanger part sticks up. Voila - tray processing without fingers in the soup.

Ari
19-Jul-2011, 15:06
Tank! Tank!
Just kidding, whichever works best for you. If you're used to trays, stick with it; the most important thing here being well-developed negs.
I've used Jobo tanks for all my 4x5 since the beginning, and I wouldn't go with anything else, but that's what I'm used to.

ac12
19-Jul-2011, 15:17
The other option is to use a drum.
There is a site that talks about using the Unicolor print drum for 4x5 sheet film processing.

IanG
19-Jul-2011, 15:27
I've used Jobo tanks since the 70's much easier. Failing that a Paterson Orbital.

Ian

jk0592
19-Jul-2011, 15:34
I think the problem with a print drum is that the film might stick to the inner surface, and will suffer from uneven development. Paper is much less sensitive to this.

Graybeard
19-Jul-2011, 15:39
Hangers in a tank.


I've been considering shooting some B&W film again. Someone gave me a 50-sheet box of Efke 100.

I used to do all of my 4x5 film in trays (1:71 HC110...if you must know!), but, I'm in an apartment, and happen to have the option of a stainless tank with reel for 4x5 sheet film.

I will end up testing various techniques for agitation and development times, but I would love some suggestions!

Thanks!

Leigh
19-Jul-2011, 16:06
But since I don't like sticking my hands in the developer (and raising the temp)...
Another solution to that problem is to use Diafine, which is temperature insensitive.

- Leigh

BetterSense
19-Jul-2011, 16:39
I develop in trays like God intended. It requires concentration to avoid scratches, but scratches ARE avoidable, and I always get even negatives. Tanks/hangers, on the other hand, would randomly suffer uneven development no matter what technique I used. I never got scratches in tanks, so I guess pick which you hate most--scratches or surges.

akfreak
19-Jul-2011, 16:52
I have tried the Taco method, trays, tubes, hangers in tanks. You name it I have tried it. I just got some chiba tubes, They look like they are going to work great. There is kind of new 4x5 film that holds 6 sheets in a double reel patterson tank. $79 bucks though for some plastic gadget. It looks promissing. If you are short on space and cant set up a water bath for all your trays, the a tube/daylight tank systems will be the best option in my opinion.

Trays are the classic method and never fail to get the job done. In all the methods they all have drawbacks. I like to load in the dark and work in the light. With trays you will be in the dark the longest. Also the tubes use the least chemestry. Good luck, AKf

nonuniform
21-Jul-2011, 15:28
Thanks! I spent many years in the dark developing 4x5 in trays. I found that I could do 8 sheets without scratching, and had managed to account for temp changes with my hands in the soup!

I no longer have a darkroom, so, it has to be daylight processing. I came across a Nikor 4x5 stainless tank at a swap meet and bought it. It's a funny, squat metal tank. Ah, I'll give it a shot!

I do plan on experimenting with diafine.

bbuszard
23-Jul-2011, 11:42
I've tried several methods and find trays the best for me. That's only a personal preference, and so neither here nor there. I haven't yet seen slosher trays mentioned in the replies, though. They allow you to process 6 sheets at once without as much risk of scratching. There's more info on them in earlier threads.

Bill Burk
23-Jul-2011, 12:04
I do trays by gloved hands with CompnTemp timing and IR to see what's happening. It's almost as fun as developing prints watching negs emerge.

But from what I understand tank with Nitrogen Burst agitation is the ultimate.

Greg Blank
23-Jul-2011, 17:17
I doubt G** intended for us to make graven images to begin with ;)

Yes any technique will serve a patient person well, trays have draw backs like standing in the dark, not being able to walk away from the tray, and having you skin next to chemicals or futzing with the film with gloves on. Once you use a New Jobo Expert 10 sheet 4x5 drum retailing at 529.00 which includes shipping you never want to go back :)



I develop in trays like G** intended. It requires concentration to avoid scratches, but scratches ARE avoidable, and I always get even negatives. Tanks/hangers, on the other hand, would randomly suffer uneven development no matter what technique I used. I never got scratches in tanks, so I guess pick which you hate most--scratches or surges.

lmlmlm
31-Jul-2011, 06:34
On the same topic, suppose i get a tank: either a standing tank like the Yankee, or a rotating tank like the Jobo 2520, or even a home-made BTZS-like tube. Question is: can i do all the steps (developer, stop bath, fixer, wash) in the same tank/tube, or does that leave chemicals in there that will affect future processing?

What if i rinse the tank/tube really, really good when i'm done, to clean up any traces of fixer, etc in it?

Ari
31-Jul-2011, 06:48
You can use the same tank for all processes, no problem.
Just don't do any of the processing steps in reverse, i.e., get fixer in your developer
Rinse everything, tank, reels, whatever with warm water and leave to dry.
Do not wash with soap, ever; it leaves residue.

Jay DeFehr
31-Jul-2011, 09:38
I've experimented with a lot of unorthodox processing methods, as well as all the orthodox ones. For perfectly even development, there are two methods that have never failed me: Brush development of a single negative in a tray, and tube/drum development with inversion agitation, continuous or intermittent. For intermittent agitation, there needs to be enough solution to completely cover the film during rest cycles, and enough headroom to promote thorough agitation. For continuous agitation, you can use less solution, but there is a point of diminishing returns, after which you risk uneven development. My favorite tanks for this kind of development are the Paterson or Jobo 1500 series daylight type with the center column that fills the tank from the bottom up. They fill and dump quickly and all of the processing can be done in daylight. The Jobo tanks are modular, which makes them more versatile. With these types of tanks there is a slight risk of scratching the negatives with the center column when removing the film from the tank.

For absolutely scratch-free negatives, the following methods have never failed me: A flat bottomed glass tray for one sheet at a time, and bag development. Bag development is development in a ziploc or other type of plastic bag. This method can be daylight, or dark, or some combination of the two, with various schemes for getting the solution in and out of the bag. This method has a lot of potential, especially for ULF films, but there's no commercially available system. I'm tinkering with a system that utilizes a single stroke hand pump and mylar bags for what could be a very convenient and efficient daylight process. If anyone is interested in the details, I'm happy to share.

The only method that has never resulted in either uneven development or scratches for me, is a flat bottomed glass tray for a single negative with brush development. This method, like all others, has advantages, and disadvantages. The advantages: Perfectly even development without scratches, and low solution volume. Since brush agitation is so efficient, there's no need to use a tray much larger than your negative. This combined with the tray's flat bottom permits the use of very low solution volumes, which is only important for the developer. The trade off for this particular convenience/efficiency is that the high surface area to low volume ratio encourages more rapid oxidation of the developer, and solution cooling by evaporation. Floating the glass tray in a tempering bath can help to maintain the solution temperature, but does nothing to prevent oxidation of the developer solution. A hedge against oxidation is to use a more concentrated developer solution with shorter development times. Brush agitation can be either continuous or intermittent, but only continuous agitation guarantees perfectly even development. Since you're developing one negative at a time, you can use the same tray for all solutions. Granted, this is more practical with either ortho film under a safelight, or in a large sink, where the solutions can be simply dumped out by tilting the tray. After the fixer goes in, the lights can come on.

Disadvanteges: Developing in the dark, one negative at a time. If you have only a few negatives to develop, this method looks a lot more attractive than if you have several, but if you have the luxuries of time and patience, this method offers the best odds for making pristine negatives.

Good luck!

lmlmlm
31-Jul-2011, 10:35
Jay, not sure what you mean by 'brush' development.

Jay DeFehr
31-Jul-2011, 11:06
Brush development is just like it sounds; you use a brush on the surface of the film to move the developer. Some people use expensive camel hair, or sable brushes, but I just use cheap foam brushes and get the same results. The idea is to brush the film, varying the pattern, for complete coverage. The brush breaks up the boundary layer near the surface of the film for very efficient agitation. I use it mostly with 8x10 film when I have only a few to process, because I get impatient when I have several films to process.

lmlmlm
31-Jul-2011, 12:37
Doesn't that scratch the emulsion?

Anyway, i'm still experimenting. I just found a 2$ coffee mug with a water tight cap, and apparently it can easily fit 2 sheets leaning on the walls, so i'll give that a go with rotation next time i develop. It takes 0.6L of liquid, but for rotation i'll probably use only half that amount.

Jay DeFehr
31-Jul-2011, 13:02
No, it doesn't scratch the emulsion. Be sure your sheets are secured in your coffee mug somehow, or they'll end up lapping over each other, and that's no good. Processing one sheet at a time is one solution, and the taco method is another, which might allow you to process three sheets instead of two. Good luck!

Ron McElroy
31-Jul-2011, 15:15
I use tanks and hangers for 4x5 with good results. No problem with surge marks.

dtheld
31-Jul-2011, 15:28
I use an insert for a Paterson 3 reel tank manufactured by a fellow in the UK. Each insert holds 6 sheets of 4x5 and uses 1 liter of chemical. He is currently selling the inserts on **bay. Do a search on that site for Paterson 3 reel 5x4. It works very well for me.
Dave :)

BetterSense
31-Jul-2011, 19:53
I used to know someone who did astrophotography and she said that the only method that gives truly even development is brush development. I think she used a paintbrush, like for painting houses and furniture.

kev curry
31-Jul-2011, 22:36
BTZS tubes. Consistently even negs (so far). Economical (60ml/developer per 5x4 sheet). Can simultaneously develop 5 sheets of film with each at different dev times if required. Can use different developers e.g PMK/ID11 on the same run. No contact with chemicals. No scratched negatives. No temperature fluctuations. Once tubes are loaded all work is carried out in the light. Would never go back to fussing with trays in the dark.

Leigh
1-Aug-2011, 00:03
Once tubes are loaded all work is carried out in the light.
How do you switch from developer to stop to fix? :confused:

- Leigh

kev curry
1-Aug-2011, 14:33
How do you switch from developer to stop to fix? :confused:

- Leigh

When a tube has reached dev time its uncapped. The dev get dumped and the tube is then placed into the tray of stop bath and spun for ten sec's or so, then intermittently thereafter until all the tubes are in the stop. The film is then removed from the tubes and placed into an open tray of fix and shuffled by(gloved) hand until done. Only the loading of the tubes is done in darkness, thereafter the whole procedure is done under weak incandescent light.

Jay DeFehr
1-Aug-2011, 16:00
For me, the BTZS-type tubes are best used for intermittent agitation of a single sheet. If I remember correctly, the ones I made used 200ml of solution to completely cover a 4x5 sheet. Using a very concentrated developer, like hypercat, I would use 2ml of concentrate per sheet, which is only a little wasteful. If I'm developing more than one sheet per batch, or using rotary agitation, I prefer to use the taco method in a Paterson or Jobo tank. I never liked trying to develop films together for different times; it's way too hectic and fiddly for me.

jdimichele
8-Aug-2011, 15:05
Good Afternoon,

I've used trays, cheap plastic tanks and the stainless steel Nikor tank. I will now only use tray processing for 8x10 B&W. For 4x5 I got frustrated using cheap plastic tanks as half of the chemicals would seep out and they were finicky to load. I now only use my Nikor tank for 4x5 (B&W and E6). It will do 12 sheets at a time and is a dream to load and use. I got mine for a great deal a few years ago and it looks like you will pay substantially more these days. Worth every penny if you can afford it. One thing to note is that if the retaining strap that holds the film in place is missing, use that to your advantage to get a better deal. Mine never came with the strap and I've used an elastic band for years with no problems.

Gerard de Vrueh
12-Aug-2011, 01:51
Good morning from the netherlands....

I once bought a Nova trimate 30x40 slotprocessor to develop paper. The paper is held in a special clip that grabes the paper with two fine needles on the edge of the paper. It leaves two very small needle marks but those are very small and hard to notice.

In any case i have used 4x5 inch in the past and so i have used it to develop 4x5 inch FP4+ in HC110 1+31 (B). I got very nice results and since there is 2 litres of developer in the slot you can develop al lot of film in it without replesihment. I am currently starting up again in 4x5 photography and plan to develop in pyro (finol from moersch) in this way.

The only downside is that i only have one paperclip and so i heve to develop one film at a time. The advantage is that you can control the temperature to a precice degree and after developing you take the film out and puti it in the slot for stop, and fixer after that. You also dont have to put your fingers in the chemicals. And since i am rather sencitive for chemicals on my hands i have abandoned tray development.

I did like tray development because you can develop more than one film at a time. I have done too 8 4x5 inch films in one tray ant that worked very well to. But i did have to put my fingers in the developer and i cant feel good enough with gloves on.

But as said i use the nova trimate for film development and i am happy with it. And in the future i can go up to 30 x40 cm (11"x 15"). In fact its like a hanger system.

good luck
Gerard

tuco
12-Aug-2011, 12:08
I develop my sheet film the same and just as easily as my 120 roll film using a HP Combi Plan tank with this machine I made. It has another adapter for the HP tank. No problems with uneven development either.



http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3443/3376205605_7b0cf348d3_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/yo_tuco/3376205605/)


And for the interested, here is a video building it (http://vimeo.com/11210854)

Roger Vadim
13-Aug-2011, 07:43
that is one great machine! full of respect, tuco!