X-ray film and filters

[Ari]

Hi,
I didn't find the answer in the archives, so I'm asking now.

I have a boatload of x-ray film with which to experiment, and I'm still working out some final kinks in my shooting/processing, since both the film and format (810) are new to me.
The film is blue-sensitive, so it naturally washes out the sky to a sickly-white tone.
I shot this a few weeks ago (toning and vignetting were done in PS):

http://i54.tinypic.com/od8k4.jpg

Immediately after, I did a second exposure, this time with a red filter over the lens.
To no one's surprise, the filtered shot came out blank, but I had to find out anyway.
I only have the red filter, so that's where the experiment must end, for the moment.

My question is, is there a filter that will darken the sky on blue-sensitive x-ray film?
Yellow? Green? Other?

Thanks in advance

[Robert Hughes]

You could try a linear polarized filter, or graduated neutral density filter. But you can only do so much with blue sensitive film and a blue sky. Don't fight it, work its strengths.

[Ari]

"Don't fight it, work its strengths."

Good advice, anytime.
But I want to find out just how much I can do with blue-sensitive x-ray film, what is possible, etc.
I like your graduated ND suggestion, thanks.

[Ari]

I don't know, I'm not a ZS adherent, but I'll try your suggestion.
Why do you think it'll work with x-ray film? Any past experience with it?
Thanks

[Ari]

I have been shooting x-ray film and paper negatives in my cameras. To avoid blown-out skies I always insert the yellow filter. I will post an example of what I have been able to achieve. If possible I'll try and shoot a fresh example this evening. Then I'll post the results later tonight, including all the particulars for reference. Hopefully we will still have these big white clouds.

Dann, that would be great to see.
Are you shooting blue-sensitive x-ray film as well?
I'm looking forward to seeing some photos.

[Ari]

Non-scientific? Sounds good already :)

[Ari]

Dann, thanks for posting this, it looks great, not to mention encouraging.
At least you're getting some kind of contrast in the sky, which I thought was nearly impossible with this film.
As to the graininess I see in the photo, is that from the Dektol, from the inherent "softness" of X-ray film, or your quick scan? Or something else?
Please post more when you have them, I'll do likewise, and I'll be getting a yellow filter subito pronto.
Thanks again!

[Ari]

No, no, it's not a horrible example, it illustrates clearly that a yellow filter will bring out sky tones that I thought were unobtainable.
I've been shooting at ISO 320 and processig in HC-110 dilution H (1:63) for 9 minutes. Then again, I'm shooting portraits, so I'm conscious of skin tones and contrast buildup as well.
When you have more, I'd love to see them, and any technical notes would be a bonus.
Thanks

[Ari]

Dann,
I just re-read your last post, and I was thinking that if you managed to get the sky to show up without the use of a yellow filter, then maybe your use of older lenses, with their gentler contrast, is the reason.
I only have modern Japanese & German glass, and maybe I'm getting too much inherent contrast from them.
I picked up a yellow filter, and I'll go shoot a couple of pics today or tomorrow.
I'm also sending you a PM regarding your bleaching, which I've never heard of.
Thanks again.

[Ari]

Hey Dann,
Not bad, not bad at all...
The information in the sky is definitely there, and I'm sure with a yellow filter and some selective burning, I can get a darker sky.
I hope to have something to show over the week-end.
Thanks a lot.

[Lachlan 717]

How does green sensitive film react?

[Robert Hughes]

Green sensitive film, aka orthorchromatic film, is sensitive to blue and green light, not red. Its color sensitivity is similar to variable contrast photo paper. A yellow filter (also called a "blue minus" filter) works better with ortho film than with blue sensitive film.

[Andrew O'Neill]

I use green sensitive xray. I have a print where the xray film was exposed through a #8 Wratten (light yellow) filter. The resulting image was quite nice. I'll dig it up tomorrow morning and post it here if you'd like...

[Robert Hughes]

I've used the green sensitive x-ray film (without filters) for my home made 8x10. The exposure comes out fine, but the two sided emulsion is prone to scratching, and has heavy density - OK for cyanotype and scanning but not so much for projection or direct printing.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4009/4443442716_5c8a1da474.jpg

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Green sensitive, no filter. Carbon print.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Here is the print as promised. Nothing artistic as it was for testing purposes. The negative was contact printed on Oriental VC fibre. This is a straight scan of the print. #8 Wratten (light yellow) filter was used. I applied a factor of 2 to the film exposure. Also, this is green latitude xray, so I can't really help you out with blue sensitive film...
The film was developed in pyrocat-hd (10ml+10ml+1000ml) in a flat-bottomed tray. It has a long density range as it was intended for carbon printing.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Andrew, work for me!

[Ari]

Ari, I hope you didn't spend a lot of money on that yellow filter. :( I must have been thinking of green x-ray film when I chimed in. :eek:

Dann, not a problem, I just borrowed a filter.
I've been out of town, but I'll still give it a go just to see what's what.
If anything remotely interesting pops up, I'll post it here.

[Michael Roberts]

polarizer?
GND?

[Andrew O'Neill]

I'll bet a polarizer would work really well as Michael suggested. I'll try it, but will have to wait for blue sky as that seems to be a rare thing around these parts.

[Andrew O'Neill]

That's very interesting. Decent seperation between sky and clouds.
I did some testing before where I stripped the emulsion off of one side. Mind you, it isn't a good idea for carbon or other alt printers as it literally cuts the density range of the negative right in half.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Dunno, but when I read the density before and after stripping, the DR was precisely half for the stripped film.

[Ari]

I just want to follow up on this thread.
I did a test with and without a yellow filter. Unfortunately, I am experiencing problems with light leaks at the moment, so the shot with the filter was extremely compromised, more so than this example.
However, I didn't see much difference between the two in regards to sky tone and clouds.
Here's the one without filter, I apologize for presenting such a flawed photo.

http://i51.tinypic.com/deqvc6.jpg

I realized that I had been overlooking a crucial step whilst scanning, namely accurately adjusting levels before the scan, and using the entire range of tones, from 0 to 255.
Details for this are on Ken Lee's website, an excellent reference, btw.
Anyhoo, I found that by adjusting these controls, the sky and clouds were much better-rendered than before; and since I saw little difference between filtered and non-filtered clouds & sky (on blue-sensitive film), I'm inclined to think most of it resides in pre-scanning habits.
Next up, contact prints!

Thanks to Dann for all your advice and patience.

[Ari]

Dann, I'm not sure either; this back hasn't been a problem before, and the curious stitch-like mark on the right-hand side tells me it may be a hole in the bellows. Full of reflections, maybe handled in the wrong light, I don't know.