View Full Version : "New Coceine" opaque masking paint substitute?
I think I had the last bottle of "New Coceine" sold by B&H, and now I can't find it. What's the substitute for opaque masking paint? Are there markers that can be used instead? That would be a lot esaier to use!
I may be wrong but I was under the impression that "new coceine" was just kodaks version of crocein scarlet. The crocein scarlet was just a red powder dye that could be mixed up in different strengths. There is a guy on ebay who sells a replacement.
If you are thinking of Kodak "red opaque" (pre-mixed red goop) then I don't know what to recommend - maybe an art supply store could lead you to a replacement product.
Any sort of opaque masking paint would suffice, really, as long as there's a way to get it off the negative later... I'll try latex poster paints.Peels right off, I hear.
Sorry, I mis-read "New Cocaine", and had to have a look-see. :)
What troubled me most initially was that B&H might be selling it!
Drew Wiley
14-Jul-2011, 15:30
The dye is not opaque at all - which is the whole point, because you can layer it
up incrementally for the specific degree of masking needed. Red Opaque is a different
product.
Lynn Jones
14-Jul-2011, 15:59
I still have an envelope of "Ansco Neo Cocine" which I will keep forever. Karsh's wife was the best at it that I've ever seen at cocine retouching.
I always used it a 5 different dilutions for retouching.
Lynn
bob carnie
15-Jul-2011, 05:47
Lillian Bass was pretty dam good at it as well.
My first boss was also very good at it, he was a retoucher in Berlin in the early 40's and worked at one of the biggest studios.
Amazing what this red powder can do on large negatives.
I still have an envelope of "Ansco Neo Cocine" which I will keep forever. Karsh's wife was the best at it that I've ever seen at cocine retouching.
I always used it a 5 different dilutions for retouching.
Lynn
bob carnie
15-Jul-2011, 05:49
Are you masking for multiple toning effects if so elmers glue on the print will work.
As Drew points out the red opaque was used to block out pinholes and scratches on line film and completely block the light.
the red coccine allows you to hold back shadows , so you can print in hightlights better.
Any sort of opaque masking paint would suffice, really, as long as there's a way to get it off the negative later... I'll try latex poster paints.Peels right off, I hear.
Are you masking for multiple toning effects if so elmers glue on the print will work.
As Drew points out the red opaque was used to block out pinholes and scratches on line film and completely block the light.
the red coccine allows you to hold back shadows , so you can print in hightlights better.
It would be nice to be able to selectively hold back shadows but I was settling for just block things. Elmer's glue huh? My little darkroom stuff shelf is starting to accumulate some very strange substances, including the KYJelly. One wonders what visitors think!
bob carnie
15-Jul-2011, 08:20
Make your print, then with a brush paint on elmers glue, then tone, rub off the glue and duotone magic.
Black stockings make very good diffusers.
Have fun
It would be nice to be able to selectively hold back shadows but I was settling for just block things. Elmer's glue huh? My little darkroom stuff shelf is starting to accumulate some very strange substances, including the KYJelly. One wonders what visitors think!
So would anybody like to part with some New Coceine?
So would anybody like to part with some New Coceine?
I think there's a bottle on ebay of Kodak Crocein Scarlet 1 oz on Ebay right now
And the seller won't ship to Canada and won't take questions!
Crap!
Bill Burk
15-Jul-2011, 21:37
Send me a pm and I'll mail a small pouch to you. I think I used 1 gram to make my last set of 5 bottles according to Looten's instructions. At that rate I've got more than I need. I can make the offer to a few people if anyone needs.
some old kodak "black opaque" just popped up on the bay. It might be the ticket if you are looking for something totally opaque.
some old kodak "black opaque" just popped up on the bay. It might be the ticket if you are looking for something totally opaque.
Thanks - actually I was experimenting with "india ink" which works fantastic! And it washes off!
Just FYI for anyone coming across this thread in the future, Ive been doing some research:
"Red food dye (any kind of red food dye will do) is perhaps the easiest retouching tool to work with. It is used as the equivalent of dodging. That is, if you put some on an area of a negative, it will lighten that area of the final print, just as dodging would. A red dye is used because printing paper aren't sensitive to red light... it doesn't take very much red dye to lighten the image in that area....a thinner coating promotes smoother image tones...dilute it by putting four drops into 1/4 oz of water. You can adjust to suit...The dye is put on the back of he film with a Q-tip...the back has a very thin layer of gelatin that accepts dye readily...you would want a vigorous pink color... more or less depending ... make test prints... Plain water removes a little... household ammonia removes more...keep ammonia away from emulsion side as ammonia can bleach negatives..."
Source: Photographic Printing, by Philip Hattersley, 1977
Scotty230358
18-Jul-2011, 23:12
Windsor and Newton still make photo opaque. They are a British manufacturer but are big in the art supplies world so you should have no difficulty getting hold of it.
bob carnie
19-Jul-2011, 06:13
Another cool trick for all you big negative printers making a edition of difficult image.
put your negative into the enlarger , make a print where you are aiming for the upper mid tone to highlight regions, Your shadows will be too deep.
Take the carrier out of the enlarger and put it over a light box.
now with scizzors and diffusion material cut out the shape of the shadow region.
lay this carefully down on the glass, then cut out the same shape and lay on top.
much like contour mapping you can over time build up enough dodging for the shadows in each area, by laying more contour tissue on each area or removing.
After a few tests you should be able to make a straight print with all your dodging done exactly the same way each time, and all you have to do is concentrate on the burn.
This was described in one of my 60's darkroom books and I thought it pretty good trick.. Contour Dodging.
Another cool trick for all you big negative printers making a edition of difficult image.
put your negative into the enlarger , make a print where you are aiming for the upper mid tone to highlight regions, Your shadows will be too deep.
Take the carrier out of the enlarger and put it over a light box.
now with scizzors and diffusion material cut out the shape of the shadow region.
lay this carefully down on the glass, then cut out the same shape and lay on top.
much like contour mapping you can over time build up enough dodging for the shadows in each area, by laying more contour tissue on each area or removing.
After a few tests you should be able to make a straight print with all your dodging done exactly the same way each time, and all you have to do is concentrate on the burn.
This was described in one of my 60's darkroom books and I thought it pretty good trick.. Contour Dodging.
Cool! There should be a thread just on such tricks. I am trying to find more old books on darkroom tricks. Some of the ones I've learned so far: using Rubylith as dodging as well as masking, using the below-lens red filter holder for combination printing, and using pieces cut from VC filters to increase/decrease contrast on specific areas of a print whilst exposing (I like a touch of really high contrast on the eyes in portraits - makes them stand out.) I also started using small clamps attached to the ends of flexible gooseneck tubing as "third hands" (or fourth hands) for holding things whilst dodging/burning in.
I'm now experimenting using tone separations to make masks. Unfortunately I'm finding it hard to locate some of the material that the old books mention particularly the films for making positives and internegs. Seems like Arista APHS is all we have nowdays. I also lack an 8x10 pin register which makes things hard and slow.
Jerry N. Uelsmann apparently uses multiple enlargers to make combination prints - I'd like to try that out one day too but am trying to figure out a way to keep the image aligned with the different negatives as you move it from one enlarger to another.
I should mention that there's really no reason why any of these tricks have to be used for "difficult images" - it is a lot of fun just to screw around with various effects. That's photography too. You can "build" an image using the enlarger and instead of just "taking" an image using the camera shutter and then printing it "straight" (albeit with some dodging and burning in where needed.) In fact I'm thinking enlarging drawings on acetate, and skip using negatives - or sandwiching negatives with hand-drawn images on acetate. Shits and giggles.
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