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m332720
14-Jul-2011, 12:07
I work in the stock room at the local college and we have Toyo 45c's that we check out to students.
We are running into a problem findingreplacementt bellows for the cameras. Right now we have 6 cameras down with pin holes in the bellows
We are looking for ways that we can repair the bellows that will be reasonable in cost are be fairly robust. It is amazing the amount of use and abuse that the cameras suffer through
Ideas and suggestions a very welcome
Thanks
Michael

Ari
14-Jul-2011, 12:17
I've used a black silicone paste; it cures quickly, and remains flexible after drying.
If you need to buy new bellows, several Chinese manufacturers are set up on eBay, and are reasonably priced; you'll have to glue the bellows to your old frames, though, and for that I'd recommend Pliobond.

m332720
14-Jul-2011, 12:41
Thanks for the ideas
Any particular type ofsiliconee?

Bob Salomon
14-Jul-2011, 13:09
Have you asked the MAC Group about replacement bellows?

Ari
14-Jul-2011, 13:51
Thanks for the ideas
Any particular type ofsiliconee?

The one I used is a black sealant, a good hardware store will have it.
It comes in a tube, not unlike a toothpaste tube, and is waterproof.
Most importantly, it stays flexible after curing.

This is a quick fix, perhaps not a long-term solution when different people are using the cameras on a daily basis, but so far, my 8x10 bellows have been trouble-free and perfectly light-tight.

Tobias Key
14-Jul-2011, 14:15
I have a Toyo 45C which had pinholed bellows when I bought it. I simply put a torch on the inside of the bellows and stuck insulating tape on the corners and middle seam of the bellows as required, I used it on the outside of the bellows, it looks like shit but it works and doesn't affect the flexibilty of the bellows as much as putting it on the inside. You should have no problem making these cameras usable for a few dollars.

TheDeardorffGuy
14-Jul-2011, 15:06
The black Silicone adhesive from an auto parts store "seems" to have more pigment in it. Apply some to the inside of the bellows and spread it with your finger. Do the entire length. Keep the bellows streched out while it cures. Naptha cleans your finger.

el french
14-Jul-2011, 17:55
Sounds like a learning opportunity for the students. Why don't you have them build new bellows?

Jim Jones
14-Jul-2011, 18:51
For bellows with a fabric liner I thoroughly scrub in a thin coat of black artist's acrylic paste that comes in jars. It is thinner than the paint from tubes. As Ken says, leave the bellows extended until completely dry.

Paul Fitzgerald
14-Jul-2011, 19:11
"Any particular type ofsiliconee?"

Permatex "Ultra Black Hi-Temp RTV Silicone Gasket Maker" #598B

Any auto parts store will have it, let it set-up for 24 hours.
You can even glue the bellows to the frames with this, clamped for 24 hours.

Have fun with it.

Adamphotoman
14-Jul-2011, 20:10
Sikaflex 291 (Black)is a marine grade adhesive which remains flexible. If you rub it just before it cures you can create a matt finish. Definitely don't want a glossy surface on the inside. BTW artist grade acrylic needs to be matt too. And acrylic can remain sticky. Not so good for the inside of the bellows. I tried a Black Gesso and it was still sticky.

TheDeardorffGuy
17-Jul-2011, 11:30
I've most likely repaired more bellows than any of you good people. The auto parts type of black silicone seems to be more pigmented. I forgot about the rubbing trick,THANKS!! Depending on the inner liner material will determine if an acrylic will cure. There are some interesting reactions going on. I have tried this and had no curing at all with some material. Others have cured nicely but flaked off leaving debiis on the film. silicone has never failed me.

GPS
17-Jul-2011, 11:57
...
We are looking for ways that we can repair the bellows that will be reasonable in cost are be fairly robust. It is amazing the amount of use and abuse that the cameras suffer through
...
Thanks
Michael

It would be technically naive to think that a silicon layer can make a "fairly robust" solution of your problem for bellows with an "amazing amount of use and abuse".
It doesn't even have the technical parameters of the bellows material you try to repair...

Gluing a new small piece of bellows material over the hole is the solution. Shape it according to the bellows piece with the problem.

TheDeardorffGuy
17-Jul-2011, 17:20
Hi GPS
You would be surprised at the LACK of "technical parameters" bellows material has. In the 80s I worked for Deardorff in Chicago and there was a distinct lack of material specifically made for bellows. The company sent dozens of letters out to fabric coaters with very demanding specifics regarding IR and UV penetration. Most companies replied that they could NOT meet these parameters. Those thad did had minimum orders that were out of reason. (10,000 yards!) So the answer? Some times it was off the shelf. Deardorff used a material used for military rain coats. They used a Uniroyal fabric that was used to wrap some type of vapor gas tanks. This stuff was used on cameras when it was available surplus and is still soft to this day. Burke and James had the same supply problems. I think that the chemical makeup of black silicone is far superior than some coatings! Just an opinion.


It would be technically naive to think that a silicon layer can make a "fairly robust" solution of your problem for bellows with an "amazing amount of use and abuse".
It doesn't even have the technical parameters of the bellows material you try to repair...

Gluing a new small piece of bellows material over the hole is the solution. Shape it according to the bellows piece with the problem.

Ari
17-Jul-2011, 21:42
Hi GPS
You would be surprised at the LACK of "technical parameters" bellows material has. In the 80s I worked for Deardorff in Chicago and there was a distinct lack of material specifically made for bellows. The company sent dozens of letters out to fabric coaters with very demanding specifics regarding IR and UV penetration. Most companies replied that they could NOT meet these parameters. Those thad did had minimum orders that were out of reason. (10,000 yards!) So the answer? Some times it was off the shelf. Deardorff used a material used for military rain coats. They used a Uniroyal fabric that was used to wrap some type of vapor gas tanks. This stuff was used on cameras when it was available surplus and is still soft to this day. Burke and James had the same supply problems. I think that the chemical makeup of black silicone is far superior than some coatings! Just an opinion.

I would tend to agree with you, Ken. As I said in a previous post, the black silicone I used, bought at Canadian Tire for $6.99, is still lightproof and flexible.
The alternative would have been to buy a new set of bellows, at the very least $175.

GPS
18-Jul-2011, 00:57
Hi GPS
...
I think that the chemical makeup of black silicone is far superior than some coatings! Just an opinion.

There has never been bellows made of silicon. For a good reason.
If you you repair a damaged material of a higher quality with a material of a lower quality what you get is future problems bigger than those before.

GPS
18-Jul-2011, 01:11
...
The alternative would have been to buy a new set of bellows, at the very least $175.

The alternative would be to make a professional repair - to use bellows material glued over the holes. If the corners are too weak and with holes you can cut the corner off and replace it with a new one glued to the original bellows.

Ari
18-Jul-2011, 06:06
The alternative would be to make a professional repair - to use bellows material glued over the holes. If the corners are too weak and with holes you can cut the corner off and replace it with a new one glued to the original bellows.

That depends; I'm talking about pinholes and you might be talking about rips or tears in the bellows fabric.
All I can do is relate my own experience; so for patching pinhole-and-slightly-larger-sized problems, the silicone worked like a charm, and after four months of heavy use, it continues to work. There's been no degradation of the bellows material due to the silicone application.

TheDeardorffGuy
18-Jul-2011, 07:39
Actually there has GPS. I had a coating company supply me with enough surplus silicone coated fabric to build 30 bellows. These bellows are living quietly on their cameras for nearly 16 years now. Not a peep or pinhole so far. Unfortunatly the company merged into another and the new owners could not find any records of this fabric or its coating.


There has never been bellows made of silicon. For a good reason.
If you you repair a damaged material of a higher quality with a material of a lower quality what you get is future problems bigger than those before.

GPS
18-Jul-2011, 08:23
Actually there has GPS. I had a coating company supply me with enough surplus silicone coated fabric to build 30 bellows. These bellows are living quietly on their cameras for nearly 16 years now. Not a peep or pinhole so far. Unfortunatly the company merged into another and the new owners could not find any records of this fabric or its coating.

No Ken - you don't differentiate between a bellows coating and a bellows base material that is coated. If a pinhole is made in the bellows fabric to coat it over does not cure the problem - the coating itself is much too soft and notwithstanding the forces that caused the pinhole in the base material in the first place.
Any silicon coating is just a temporary solution asking for future problems.

GPS
18-Jul-2011, 08:26
That depends; I'm talking about pinholes and you might be talking about rips or tears in the bellows fabric.
All I can do is relate my own experience; so for patching pinhole-and-slightly-larger-sized problems, the silicone worked like a charm, and after four months of heavy use, it continues to work. There's been no degradation of the bellows material due to the silicone application.

See the post # 21. The same forces that cause pinholes have much more effect on a silicon coating. Pinholes are also a case of small rips...

TheDeardorffGuy
18-Jul-2011, 14:28
Ok GPS I suppose a nearly 30 year old repair is going to give way sometime huh? After all nothing lasts for ever. NEYIBS. I suppost I should expect to hear loud popping sounds as my bellows rot away.
Bellows are a consumable item on a camera and should be expected to be replaced sometime in the cameras life. I guess all the research that Deardorff, Linhof, Toyo and every camera company is all for nothing because they are going to pinhole anyway. So Folks Get your digital cameras out atrophy is on its way. Let me know in 30 years how your black silicone repair worked. I'm betting it still lasts.

erie patsellis
18-Jul-2011, 21:19
If only the Toyo bellows were made of the same bellows material as "real" bellows.

Instead, the ones I have seen (and I believe the ones Michael is referring to) are made of vinyl covered paper (similar to book cover material), die cut vinyl stiffeners (4-5 mil calendered signmaking vinyl) with an extremely thin, almost gauze like cloth liner. Every one I have bought needed replacement without fail. While they may be using better ones on the more expensive cameras, all the 45 C, D, E and F bellows I have encountered had the same construction as I outlined above.
Because of their construction, the only repair of any significance I have ever had any success with was using photographer's tape on all four corners. It buys you some time, but it does need to be replaced every so often.

TheDeardorffGuy
18-Jul-2011, 21:25
If only the Toyo bellows were made of the same bellows material as "real" bellows.

Instead, the ones I have seen (and I believe the ones Michael is referring to) are made of vinyl covered paper (similar to book cover material), die cut vinyl stiffeners (4-5 mil calendered signmaking vinyl) with an extremely thin, almost gauze like cloth liner. Every one I have bought needed replacement without fail. While they may be using better ones on the more expensive cameras, all the 45 C, D, E and F bellows I have encountered had the same construction as I outlined above.

Isn"t that material awful? I replaced a set a year or so ago and the customer was pissed that my fabric was so stiff. It was like bellows should be made. His original factory bellows lasted just about 18 months.

GPS
19-Jul-2011, 00:00
...
Because of their construction, the only repair of any significance I have ever had any success with was using photographer's tape on all four corners. It buys you some time, but it does need to be replaced every so often.

Erie, still better repair would be to simply cut off all of the bellows corners on the whole length of the bellows, make your own bellows part as the one you cut off (very easy as you don't need to build the whole bellows) and glue it on the original bellows. If you use the right material such a repair can give a new life to your bellows with a better quality than the one you repair.

erie patsellis
19-Jul-2011, 07:21
It would, but since I never used anything longer than 135mm on that camera (45F), I made a bag bellows with enough material to focus a 210 at typical studio distances, making it my general purpose bellows. I have since sold that camera to a friend who appreciates having both conventional and bag bellows to work with inexpensively.

The Toyo cameras were a great deal in their time, inexpensive and reasonably durable (save the E and F's propensity for breaking the rise bracket if you shipped it with the rise locked). Today, not so much with $2-300 used Sinar F's on the market they don't hold the value that they once did.

Ari
19-Jul-2011, 11:14
It would, but since I never used anything longer than 135mm on that camera (45F), I made a bag bellows with enough material to focus a 210 at typical studio distances, making it my general purpose bellows. I have since sold that camera to a friend who appreciates having both conventional and bag bellows to work with inexpensively.

The Toyo cameras were a great deal in their time, inexpensive and reasonably durable (save the E and F's propensity for breaking the rise bracket if you shipped it with the rise locked). Today, not so much with $2-300 used Sinar F's on the market they don't hold the value that they once did.

The Toyo Gs are still a great value; they're going from $150 to $300 and they're incredibly well-made and rock-solid.

bvaughn4
19-Jul-2011, 11:20
I successfully used the liquid tape available at auto parts stores and "painted" it on the pinholes. I thinned it a bit with Naptha, the instructions for thinning were on the manufacturers website.

http://www.plastidip.com/home_solutions/Liquid_Tape_-_Electrical_Insulation

lhatch5
19-Jul-2011, 15:33
I'm a newbie and a lurker here. This is my first post.
I've used the "Plasti Dip" before. I made some film drying clips with wooden clothes pins flipped around on their springs. Anyway, the stuff never (a year later) fully cured and it sticks to itself. Maybe the Naptha will help with this?

I've always wondered if the paint used on inflatable boats/rafts would work on bellows until I saw it was $38.00 US a quart!
http://www.shop.inlandmarine.us/product.sc?productId=14&categoryId=5
Or maybe this (but its $55.00US/qt):
http://www.shop.inlandmarine.us/product.sc?productId=2&categoryId=2

I'm sincerely interested in how this works out for you… let us know.

Lurk switch back to ON.

TheDeardorffGuy
19-Jul-2011, 15:43
I'm a newbie and a lurker here. This is my first post.
I've used the "Plasti Dip" before. I made some film drying clips with wooden clothes pins flipped around on their springs. Anyway, the stuff never (a year later) fully cured and it sticks to itself. Maybe the Naptha will help with this?

I've always wondered if the paint used on inflatable boats/rafts would work on bellows until I saw it was $38.00 US a quart!
http://www.shop.inlandmarine.us/product.sc?productId=14&categoryId=5
Or maybe this (but its $55.00US/qt):
http://www.shop.inlandmarine.us/product.sc?productId=2&categoryId=2

I'm sincerely interested in how this works out for you… let us know.

Lurk switch back to ON.

You have to shake the heck out of it to mix it throughly. I've bought some that sat on a store shelf through 2 price changes and it did not cure correctly till I mixed it.

el french
19-Jul-2011, 18:51
Has anyone tried this: https://www.getflexseal.com/?tag=he|af&a_aid=OF&a_bid=01ccd057&data1=941

Warning: Obnoxious infomercial :p

m332720
19-Jul-2011, 20:37
Folks
Thanks for all the great ideas. We have gone with the camera tape method for now. Unfortunately the bellows are not the only problems we run into. Toyo changed the springs on the backs and now we are constantly having to tighten them. The older cameras had a lever to open the back for the film. The new ones do not...The students tend to over flex the new backs loading the film holders and the springs just cant handle it.
It is harder on the cameras over the summer because they are rotated between different student. Duringng the spring and fall semesters the cameras are assigned to a single student and they see less abuse.

Peter Gomena
21-Jul-2011, 09:27
I've used black silicone automotive gasket-in-a-tube with some success. Plasti-Dip is okay, but it tends to rub off in thin applications and doesn't like to stick well to some materials.

Peter Gomena