Deardorff reborn - Is this news?

[el french]

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2011/07/lf-deardorff-rekindled.html

[Brian Ellis]

Not news here, there's a thread started by Erik Larsen in which Barry Cochran (the guy who's making them) responded to some questions.

[Ken Osborne]

I will try and make this as short as I can but it is going to be difficult. I have been a large format shooter for around 25 years. I own a Gallery/Photography studio just outside Houston. As the digital age came in I worried that our wonderful large format medium would disappear. I decided to try and start a small large format camera co. When I heard that Deardorff was starting back up I was delirious. I contacted them and spoke to Barry Cochran about the idea of building a private label camera for me. He was very excited about the idea and was more than willing to build something unique with both of our names on it. I was to buy a prototype and work with it and come up with a redesign that I felt would make the perfect camera. After shooting large format for so long I felt I could make some minor changes and make a camera that I would be proud to sell and advertise as the perfect large format camera. One of my issues was wide-angle lenses. I wanted to be able to use a 65mm with as much ease as possible. Barry explained to me that everything I wanted was easy for him to do and there would be no problem to do it. We would have a camera like no other in the world when we were done. I cannot tell you how excited I was about this and having the Deardorff name on it made everything so much better. It just seemed everything was coming together with perfect timing. After many e-mails and telephone conversations I ordered a prototype. Barry charged my credit card for the camera in full and at full price. He told me I would have the camera, 2 lens boards and a Linhof adapter in 30 days. That was the last time I ever heard from him for 6 months. After the order was made I started my advertising. I have a gallery that I do wine/art shows in to bring in people. A lot of the guests are Photographers. I also had other reputable companies involved. Ries and F:64 to name a few. BTW: I am very happy with these two companies. (Every time I do one of these shows it costs me around $2,000 to put on) 30 days went by…then 2 months…then 3 months. I started to get nervous for I was getting the word out about this prototype and I could not get any phone calls returned or e-mails. Then one day 6 months after a package arrived on my back deck. This was after numerous un-returned phone calls and e-mails. I opened up the box and was surprised that it was my camera. There was no Linhof adapter that I needed. I wanted to play with Linhof recessed lensboards with it and wide-angle lenses. I took the camera and messed with it and came up with the changes that I wanted to make. Most of them were very simple. I e-mailed this to Barry and his response was …We are not in any position to make changes. Now the camera says on it…PROTOTYPE. This usually means a product I development. In the beginning he told me he could make any changes and the ones I was pointing out were those changes. I did not change anything that we did not talk about before I ordered his camera. I have all the e-mails that spelled out all changes and costs. What the hell was going on here? All of a sudden I was dealing with the Twilight Zone and Rod Serling had turned into Barry Cochran.

I had already planned art shows to highlight this camera so I went ahead with them. I was very nervous doing it for I knew I could not take any orders or answer any questions correctly until I heard back from Mr. Cochran. I basically told people the camera was a prototype (which says on the camera…PROTOTYPE). At this point I was into my 3rd art show and people were starting to get interested but leery. I called and called Barry with no success. I must have called and e-mailed him 4 dozen times with no answer. I finally had my wife use her cell phone from work and call Deardorffs office. She called me and told me Barry answered the phone on her first call and to call him immediately while he was still there answering the phone. I immediately called did and went immediately to voicemail. I tried again and voicemail again So Barry knew my phone number and was avoiding me. What a crappy way to treat someone who is trying to do business with you. I was getting furious about all this for I have never dealt with a company like this. I sent him a strong e-mail, which I got an immediate reply. “All correspondence will be conducted through my attorney. WOW”…what a way to treat people. He is so chicken shit that he cannot even talk to us? I mean I am in kind of a bind here. I have spent all this money, got other companies involved, advertised to future customers about this camera and you cannot just talk to me. To this day I have not heard from his attorney nor had any e-mails or phone calls returned. BUT: I did notice his e-bay store is up and running and he is still taking orders for cameras in the UK. What a piece of SHIT! To make matters worse I finally took the camera out for a spin last week. I felt so mad about this but thought…well at least I got a camera out of it. I spent 2 days using it to photograph down in Galveston, which is a 2 hr. drive. When I got back and processed the film…ALL WERE FOGGED. I could not believe it. I had to find out what was the problem here. I never though of doing a bellows light test on a new camera like I do on a used one but guess what? I found 8 light leaks in the bellows. 3 were severe where the bellows is joined to the front standard. I am talking 1/8-1/4 inch gaps. Now taking closer examination you can see where this camera was rushed and just slapped together. I started noticing imperfections all over the thing. The focusing is absolutely horrible and so stiff that the focusing knobs almost slip out of the rail. This is not caused by humidity or anything…this is caused by bad workmanship. I own a lot of wood 4x5’s and have no problem with any. So far I have not heard a word from this spineless bastard. After all this I found this and other forums and it seems there are people all over the world looking for this willow of the wisp. I wish I would have looked into forums before all this but I thought I was dealing with a reputable co. AND BTW: Deardorff has a full page back cover ad on large format magazine and a great write up on them also in it. What a crock of SHIT!

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

Mr. Osborne

It appears to me that you were doing the very same thing that Mr. Cochran was doing.

[Ken Osborne]

Kevin...Excuse me. Doing the same thing that Mr. Cochran was doing? I never took one deposit or order for I became very leery of the whole situation. I cancelled all ads and shows and put the prototype in the closet even though I still have people wanting to order. Don't even think I was doing what Cochran was doing. I thought I was dealing with a reputable company...PERIOD!

[Peter Lewin]

The real mystery in this is the Gordon Hutching's article in View Camera. It is hard to believe that the article was published without either Gordon or Steve (the editor/publisher) being aware of the long-running controversy and list of complaints against Mr. Cochran's revival company (for lack of a better name - "new almost Deardorff?").

[Drew Bedo]

Fred Picker had similar problems making Zone VI cameras in-house during the 1980s; he was successful for a while but eventually sold the operation. Wisner faced the same types of production problems—and just faded away.

There are successful camera companies out there, making functional and beautiful cameras right now. These problems of scaling-up production while maintaining quality construction can be managed.

I really hope that Cochran can work through this, fill all early orders with quality cameras and re-establish Deardorff as a reliable firm making quality cameras in America.

On this forum we have long recognized and complained about the decline and shortcomings of View Camera Magazine. Yet it is the only print resource of its kind for Large Format Photography that I know of and so I am a subscriber. I really hope that all will turn out well in the long run—LF in general will be better off with a successful Deardorff company.

[Drew Bedo]

The real mystery in this is the Gordon Hutching's article in View Camera. It is hard to believe that the article was published without either Gordon or Steve (the editor/publisher) being aware of the long-running controversy and list of complaints against Mr. Cochran's revival company (for lack of a better name - "new almost Deardorff?").


I agree. Reading the article again it is clear that Hutchings only reported on the cameras that he examined. It would have been good journalism to have a story involving a shop tour and interview along with the camera review. THAT would have been a good issue of View Camera Magazine.

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

Kevin...Excuse me. Doing the same thing that Mr. Cochran was doing? I never took one deposit or order for I became very leery of the whole situation. I cancelled all ads and shows and put the prototype in the closet even though I still have people wanting to order. Don't even think I was doing what Cochran was doing. I thought I was dealing with a reputable company...PERIOD!

I am sure that your intentions were good, but both of you were selling something you didn't have to deliver. Its very common with small underdcapitalized companies that don't have a banker for an inlaw. I have seen it many many times in the last 40 years.

[Kirk Gittings]

I am sure that your intentions were good, but both of you were selling something you didn't have to deliver. Its very common with small underdcapitalized companies that don't have a banker for an inlaw. I have seen it many many times in the last 40 years.

He said "I never took one deposit or order for I became very leery of the whole situation." He never sold anything. Unless you have evidence to the contrary I think the comparison with Cochran is very inaccurate and extremely unfair since Cochran apparently is selling items and taking money for products he cannot deliver in a timely fashion or up to standard.

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

Okay, If you define selling as only taking money and orders. I will change that to "impliedly selling", and if you cannot live with that how about "promoting".

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

Mr. Jackson:

I am not calling the man dishonest, nor am I am inplying that he was dishonest. I don't think I said that anywhere in my posts, did I.

"After the order was made I started my advertising. "

"I had already planned art shows to highlight this camera so I went ahead with them."

"I have spent all this money, got other companies involved, advertised to future customers about this camera"

I am curious. What did the written contract say? Was it looked over by a good business attorney?

[Ken Osborne]

Kevin...What are you not understanding here? Yes I did advertise a new Deardorff camera in the making. Why wouldn't I after ordering a prototype to do shows with? Yes I did pay full price for a prototype that was to be built to my specifications. Yes I already had shows planned and found it impossible to cancel the last two. BUT... we never took a deposit or an order of any kind for I started to feel to uneasy about it all. There were people interested in the prototype but I refused to sell it. Look the whole reason I even did this is because I own a Photography Art Gallery and wanted to have Large Format Art Shows here with different Photographers on the property. I have been a large format photographer for a long time and want to keep this wonderful format alive.

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

Mr. Osborne

I think I understand everything. Please be assured that the implication that I am calling you dishonest is incorrect. I most assuredly am not.

All I am saying is what I have said. That I have seen this type of situation on many occasions where a business starts up but then has trouble providing their product, most often because of undercapitalization, which thereafter results in a downstream flow of misery because people relied on what was promised them.

(By the way, I have been a large format photographer for a long time too, and commend you for "wanting to keep the format alive". In hindsight, I just think the better path would have been to have good inventory on hand before advertizing it or promoting it. In that way none of your prospective customers would have suffered the same agony that you did.)

[rdenney]

It is routine in business to advertise a forthcoming product. It is routine to accept deposits for products still not made, and particularly routine for large-format cameras built in onesies and twosies.

What is not routine is taking money and not delivering the product as promised.

Mr. Osborne stopped well short of what is routine in business, Kevin, and spared his customers anything worse than mild disappointment. Cochran did not. Your statement that one should have a stock on hand before advertising represents a standard not at all based on business ethics or usual practice. It might have spared him some of his own lost investment, but it is nothing like not delivering what has been bought, paid for, and promised, as has been reported of Cochran.

Rick "finding the comparison ludicrous" Denney

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

If you say so.

[welly]

If you say so.

Oh, come on. What company *doesn't* stir up interest in a product before manufacturing begins? That's marketing 101.

[IanG]

Oh, come on. What company *doesn't* stir up interest in a product before manufacturing begins? That's marketing 101.

You're right, companies have to to guage potential interest in new products. This is exactly what Ilford/Haman did with their two Titan Pinhole cameras.

Ian

[Steve Smith]

Your statement that one should have a stock on hand before advertising represents a standard not at all based on business ethics or usual practice.

In manufacturing companies, the standard practice now is 'just in time' manufacturing where you hold stock of materials for as little time as possible. You have agreements in place with suppliers to have items delivered to you just before you need them to make a product. Also, you arrange to make finished product to be delivered immediately on completion.

That way you do not have your stores full of materials to make product or a stock of product waiting to be shipped and in minimises the amount of 'work in progress' running through the factory.

Mr Cochran seems to be running the opposite of this method whilst Mr Osborne's actions appear to have been wholly honourable. Many people would have continued promoting the cameras for much longer thinking more of making profit than not disappointing potential customers.


Steve.

[Jac@stafford.net]

This all begs the question, "How did Deardorff manage to supply their cameras?"

[goamules]

A sound business plan, sufficient working capital, enough qualified labor and tools to get the job done, good customer service, etc. I know a lot of small craftsmanship businesses build then sell. Not vice versa.

[Bob Salomon]

Oh, come on. What company *doesn't* stir up interest in a product before manufacturing begins? That's marketing 101.

We for one, in the next 10 days we will introduce a radically new tripod design in the USA from Giotto called the YTL Silk Road series.
While this tripod was originally shown to us in a prototype form at the 2010 Photokina and as a final prototype last year at the 2012 Photokina we did not announce it as we still have other tripods that we need to sell that are either in stock, in manufacture or in transit to our warehouse. In addition our dealers have our tripods in stock or in transit or on order.

A primary rule of sales is "Sell what you got".

We are mentioning this here as we sent the press release out on these great new tripods last week so you will be seeing US press reports on them this month and they will start arriving in stores after next week.

Somehow a press release was sent out about these tripods for the CES/PMA Show in January. However neither we, Giotto or any other Giotto distributor had a booth at PMA and the number of models in the line was less then what there will be and over 2/3rds of the tripods described were not what will be offered in the USA. To quote Popular Photography, after we notified them about the spurious PR, they had "unpublished" the release. Never knew there was such a word.

But to answer your question. It is standard practice not to promote something until you can deliver it. That is good marketing relations with your dealers and customers.

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

"It is standard practice not to promote something until you can deliver it. That is good marketing relations with your dealers and customers."

I might agree that its okay to make an announcement that you are working on somethin new.
But to "promote" a "prototype" product in the belief that the prototype will be ready for sale in the very near future when you have no manufacturing contract is very risky.

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

"working to print the images" from which he already has the negative available to print.

"One camera company, Gandolfi, used this scheduling for paid orders." That they theirselves make from a proven design and not a prototype.

[Jac@stafford.net]

We for one, in the next 10 days we will introduce a radically new tripod design in the USA from Giotto called the YTL Silk Road series.

It is already being advertised on the 'net. See it here. (http://www.giottos-tripods.co.uk/index.php?page=new) Quite interesting!

[Steve Smith]

On taking orders and accepting payment before the product is actually made - take a look at many fine printers who sell their work.

Or most wedding photographers who seem to want to be paid in full before the wedding even starts.


Steve.

[Bob Salomon]

It is already being advertised on the 'net. See it here. (http://www.giottos-tripods.co.uk/index.php?page=new) It was also announced in January, but not available of course.

Not the 14 models that will be in the USA. That is an ad from somewhere else. US dealers will not receive info and prices on the 14 models sold here till late next week.

About 4 of the models sold in other countries will be sold here.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Not the 14 models that will be in the USA. That is an ad from somewhere else. US dealers will not receice info and prices on the 14 models sold here till late next week.

About 4 of the models sold in other countries will be sold here.

Thanks for the update. Good things are worth waiting for.

[lenser]

Or most wedding photographers who seem to want to be paid in full before the wedding even starts.


Steve.

Steve, I have to plead guilty to being one of those when I still did weddings some 25 years ago and before. I learned the hard way that in that industry, prepaid was the only way to protect oneself after having one wedding go through an instant divorce (after a fist fight between bride and groom on the honeymoon plane trip outbound), two others go through instant annulments, and a handful cancelling at the last second. I changed to a large down payment and then final payment in full two weeks prior to the ceremony after the fist fight incident cost me around $1,000.00 in wasted time and materials in 1978 money. By the way, that wedding had booked that date first on a popular August weekend. I had turned down five other weddings on that same date that might have paid off quite well, so I was doubly hammered.

You also should extend that pre-paid statement to include the churches and reception halls, most florists, caterers, dress suppliers, tuxedo services, DJ's, etc. It is an unstable business from the get-go, not just down the road when the divorce lawyers kick in, and the smart business people have learned that prepayment is the only way to make that particular industry work.

I don't know about others, but we would allow for 50% of the full deposit to be used for other services if a wedding got cancelled. Anyway, for a wedding photographer, this policy is for pure survival and is a very solid business policy.

[lenser]

On taking orders and accepting payment before the product is actually made - take a look at many fine printers who sell their work.

One excellent photographer I am familiar with has over three years orders fully paid for - and is working to print the images even as he takes time out to photograph new work. Those who have paid are given a date when their print will be ready and shipped to them.

One camera company, Gandolfi, used this scheduling for paid orders. You were given a shipping date and waited - after having paid for the camera.

The 'trick' to these is simple. These businesses actually ship the work when they say it will be shipped. If any problems arise they let the client know of it and get approval of a revised date for completion and shipping.

It is a simple model and works well for businesses of all kinds.

Isn't this how Ansel Adams began to work once he actually got a proper business manager?

[Drew Bedo]

I would describe two alternative business models for the current incarnation of Deardorff. Each is currently employed by successful businesses in the United Stqates today. I cannot speak for these companies so if I get anything wrong I apologize and ask for clarification.

Richard Ritter, www.lg4mat.net/ , offwers repair of many wooden cameras and builds cameras of his own design on a custom basis. I have never heard of a complaint. I assume that he only takes orders that he can fill and works on a relatively low-volume semi-custom basis. I asked for and received a quote from him once. We exchanged e-mail and later spoke over the phone. I chose to have my bellows repaired locally rather than send my camera off and wait or replacement. I felt that we had a reasonable business interaction. He told me what it would cost and how long it would take.

Randall Knives, http://www.lg4mat.net/, makes semi-custome knives of good reputation. When you place an order with them they tell you how long it will take to fill your order: Typically several YEARS. Our son was in ROTC in college in the late ‘90s, with the stated intent of entering the Marines. I put down a 10% deposit, which locked in my purchase price and delivery date, and paid on that order twice a year until delivery. The knife was presented to our son when he was commissioned in 2002. I understand that the waiting time is now over four years for a Randall made knife . Each year the price goes up. . . people want them and are willing topay and wait.

In each case, open communication about what is possible is key. I think that there are folks out there who would be willing to put 10% down and wait for several years for a made-in-America Deardorff . . .if they knew in advance that was what it would take. I truly believe that Barry Cochran could sell every camera he could build on that basis.

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

Kevin,

It is apparent your knowledge of business practices is lacking.

Dakotah

It is apparent that your knowledge of my knowledge of business practices is lacking.

[Lachlan 717]

A primary rule of sales is "Sell what you got".



Rubbish.

Whilst this might be true for FMCG, it is not a "primary rule of sales", let a lone just a standard "rule of sales".

If so, how would Boeing ever sell a plane? How would a new skyscraper ever get off the ground? How would Ferrari sell any of their limited run super cars?

[Bob Salomon]

Rubbish.

Whilst this might be true for FMCG, it is not a "primary rule of sales", let a lone just a standard "rule of sales".

If so, how would Boeing ever sell a plane? How would a new skyscraper ever get off the ground? How would Ferrari sell any of their limited run super cars?

Boeing does not sell at retail. Or did you buy a 787?
Skyscrapers are not retail products either. Want a good buy on the Empire State Building?
And Ferrari sells what they have and takes orders on what they can build.

Not quite the same as selling a tripod and head to a user. Want to place an order in 2010 for a tripod that will be available in April 2013?

[goamules]

Talking about an artist commissioning a print, or an investor building a skyscraper, or a 300 million dollar jet (as has been done above) is NOT the same as selling a few dozen or a few hundred hand crafted items for under a few thousand dollars.

In about 1991 I decided, after looking at them for 6-8 years, to order a Shiloh Sharps rifle. This business started when Wolfgang Drogue, and expert machinist, bought a few original Sharps, and decided to make a perfect replica, in all respects interchangeable with an original. This company is a great example of how to make and sell semi-custom, hand crafted specialty items. At the time, there was a 3 years wait, because of the movie "Quigley Down Under" which greatly increased demand. I filled out a form with my rifle particulars and received a confirmation and invoice - for $100 down. At the time that was less than 10% of the final price. Three years latter they called me and said, "your rifle is ready, send the rest of the payment and we'll ship." I paid the amount agreed to years earlier. Even if I had changed my mind, there were people lined up on wait list for any "order cancellations" which they could sell my rifle to for the current price (which went up about 100 dollars a year back then).

I've ordered a guitar from a limited builder too (Larrivee). I paid a small deposit, and only paid the remainder when the item was ready to ship. If a business doesn't have enough operating capital to build these relatively inexpensive items without being financed by hopeful customers, something is wrong with their business plan. Probably it's so suspect, a lender won't give them the money.

It's not fair for a business to expect the customer to take all the risk. The owner must put up a large chunk of their own money, which makes them feel more dedicated to succeed.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Deardorff went through cycles of near bust. Deardorff also enjoyed a US government contract for a little while. Two things about their work that impressed me (presuming they are true) is that they hand-cut and hand-formed many of the steel hard parts. As a craftsman myself it just blows me away.

One legend is that during prohibition Deardorff bought from bars their long,precious wood bars to make more cameras. Affirm if you can.

[Kevin Crisp]

I'm still stuck on the concept of 'impliedly selling.'

[rdenney]

Boeing does not sell at retail. Or did you buy a 787?
Skyscrapers are not retail products either. Want a good buy on the Empire State Building?
And Ferrari sells what they have and takes orders on what they can build.

Not quite the same as selling a tripod and head to a user. Want to place an order in 2010 for a tripod that will be available in April 2013?

Bob, you were talking about a tripod, but everyone else is talking about a Deardorff.

The English have a term for pay-first-then-make, it's called "bespoke". Cameras like those from Richard Ritter are bespoke--built to order. Many musical instruments are built to order, and they are being sold by the maker or maker's representative to the end user, which is the definition of retail.

HP's decision not to promote this new tripod was a business decision--you guys didn't want to undermine sales of current stocks, or at least that's what I understood you to say. But if there weren't any current stocks, then I suspect you'd have announced it, and then you'd have (rightly) provided an estimated availability date. "Fryburger cameras, with these special features. Please look at our prototypes. Orders will be accepted _________, and deliveries are expected ________." I see that sort of thing all the time in all industries.

I just bought a carrying bag for my large tuba. There is only one guy in the world who makes good ones. I paid in advance, and waited a month for him to make it.

And to the person who said this was a protoype, it was a prototype of a few additional features, but underneath those features, it was a Dearforff camera, which is not exactly an unproven product.

Rick "the problem is lying, not with taking money up front for bespoke items" Denney

[rdenney]

I've ordered a guitar from a limited builder too (Larrivee). I paid a small deposit, and only paid the remainder when the item was ready to ship. If a business doesn't have enough operating capital to build these relatively inexpensive items without being financed by hopeful customers, something is wrong with their business plan. Probably it's so suspect, a lender won't give them the money.

It's not fair for a business to expect the customer to take all the risk. The owner must put up a large chunk of their own money, which makes them feel more dedicated to succeed.

These days, a small business not being able to get credit is the norm, not the exception.

But in any case, it's a deal that the camera builder makes with the buyer. The deal says, You pay me now, and in three months I will send you a camera. The buyer knows the deal. The problem is when the seller is lying, and doesn't deliver in two years let alone three months.

Sure, giving money to an unproven guy is a risk, and maybe buyers were willing to assume more than their share of the risk. But persuading customers to absorb the majority of risk is certainly neither illegal nor uncommon, and honorable sellers who operate at low margins offer low prices in return for the customer assuming a larger share of risk. None of that in any way excuses non-delivery and non-communication.

My experience in these cases is that the seller is often using current sales not to fund production for past sales, but rather to fund his continued mortgage and car payments, etc., while hoping that money will float down from Heaven to allow him to pay his business operation back so that he can actually produce what has already been paid for. Customers may have been foolish, but they are not to blame for such behavior.

Rick "it's not fair for a seller to promise something and then not deliver it" Denney

[Oren Grad]

Those here who have bought a camera from Dick Phillips will remember how he did business. He would place a small ad announcing that he was planning a production run of one of his models. If you were interested in that model you'd call him and ask to be placed on his list. At that point he didn't ask for any money. A few months later, when the cameras were all built, he got back in touch, working his way down the list. If you still wanted the camera, he asked for payment in full, and when he received payment he delivered the camera immediately.

[Lachlan 717]

Boeing does not sell at retail. Or did you buy a 787?
Skyscrapers are not retail products either. Want a good buy on the Empire State Building?
And Ferrari sells what they have and takes orders on what they can build.

Not quite the same as selling a tripod and head to a user. Want to place an order in 2010 for a tripod that will be available in April 2013?

Sorry; I didn't read the addendum to you post that you must have written in invisible ink about "retail". Here I was thinking you just wrote "...a primary rule of sales".

[Steven Tribe]

"......The English have a term for pay-first-then-make, it's called "bespoke".

Not quite! The term does mean a product (clothing) that is made-to-measure based on the customer's wishes (his precise body measurements and fabric choises), rather than "ready-to wear" items. It is a concept developed by tailors in the St. James area of London (Savile Row). It implies nothing about whether the payment is made "up front" or on delivery. The degree of trust in this business (repeat orders, " I made suits for your Grandfather - the 13th Earl") means that credit purchase with settlement every 1/2 year was more likely!

The relationship between the bespoke tailors and the Gentlemen clients has been used often in UK films.

[Bob Salomon]

Bob, you were talking about a tripod, but everyone else is talking about a Deardorff.

The English have a term for pay-first-then-make, it's called "bespoke". Cameras like those from Richard Ritter are bespoke--built to order. Many musical instruments are built to order, and they are being sold by the maker or maker's representative to the end user, which is the definition of retail.

HP's decision not to promote this new tripod was a business decision--you guys didn't want to undermine sales of current stocks, or at least that's what I understood you to say. But if there weren't any current stocks, then I suspect you'd have announced it, and then you'd have (rightly) provided an estimated availability date. "Fryburger cameras, with these special features. Please look at our prototypes. Orders will be accepted _________, and deliveries are expected ________." I see that sort of thing all the time in all industries.

I just bought a carrying bag for my large tuba. There is only one guy in the world who makes good ones. I paid in advance, and waited a month for him to make it.

And to the person who said this was a protoype, it was a prototype of a few additional features, but underneath those features, it was a Dearforff camera, which is not exactly an unproven product.

Rick "the problem is lying, not with taking money up front for bespoke items" Denney

Yes, I was talking about a tripod. But we also sell cameras and lenses. Linhof, Wista and Rodenstock. And we don't announce a new camera or lens till it can be sold. We know from experience that when the factory shows us a prototype of a new product at Photokina in the fall of the year and we order when it is show to us and that the factory tells us Jan. Or Feb. delivery it is a pretty good chance that it will not be available then.
For example, Linhof announced the 125th anniversary Linhof Master Technika, Technik 3000 and Technorama 617 SIII at Photokina 2012 and told everyone that they would be available in Jan. We did sell a set of them to a very good dealer in thew USA who saw them on display, under glass, at Photokina. To date, one T617 SIII has come in from the factory and that one was 10 days ago. We still have no delivery date for the two 125th Technika camera systems for the dealer.

or

At Photokina Linhof announced 3 new incredibly bright focus screens for the M679 and Techno cameras. This screen is considerably brighter and sharper then the Acumatte scrren invented by Minolta and sold by Hasselblad and Rollei. After seeing how good these screens are we had sold several and ordered them at the show. Again the factory is yet to give us a delivery date. Each of these screens is a four figure sale to a dealer so we would really like to make the dealer and their customers happy, but all we can do is keep asking and waiting.

And before someone asks, no, these screens are only made in mount for the M679 and Techno and there has been no word about a 45 or other size version.

And Rick, back orders that are not delivered on time makes dealers unhappy because they have promised to their customers for a specific date. Let's take you. You want this new tripod that you heard about at Photokina. You place an order with your dealer who can not give you a firm price because no one knows what the $ will be worth on the day it is loaded on the ship. But they tell you that we told them that according to the factory it will be available in 30 days + shipping time. So you decide to wait 60 days for your new tripod. But when the 60 days are up you are told that it will be an additional 30 days. And then an additional 60 days before they arrive. Now you are disappointed, like most people you want things when you pay for them (maybe not hand made knives or guns but regular retail items). Maybe disappointed enough to post disparaging comments on line, or in to the editor columns. Or to your friends at a party, opening, meeting, etc.
On top of that the competition has extra time to try to copy the unique features. They may be patented or patent pending but they feel that those details can be hammered out later in court.

So we announce when we have the merchandise in transit to us for regular retail items.
With specialized items like that GG we might have to loan a standard GG sysytem to the buyer till their new type comes in so the camera is useable but that new screen becomes part of the camera's features so it has to be talked about since it is in the camer's factory brochures.
With commemorative cameras they have to be announced because the factory will only make one production run and needs to know, months in advance, how many to make, how many custom coverings to order, how many lenses to order, how many custom cases to order, how many backs to engrave, etc. At the retial level these may end up being an off the shelf item (Samy's and Fotocare both have earlier limited edition Linhofs in stock) but to the distributor and the manufacturer each of these cameras is pre-sold prior to manufacture so are not considered a retail item in the normal sense.

[Fred L]

Similar to other examples here but google Astro-Physics. They've got a waiting list for astronomical equipment that could stretch into double digits. But afaik, they don't take payment until the telescope or mount is completed. If you choose not to buy what you're waiting for, there's a lineup behind you that will grab it asap. I would guess that even if people had to leave a small deposit to hold their place in line, they would do so without hesitation as Roland's work is a cut above the rest.

[mikendawn]

Question for all you guys.. I see this is an older thread, but not quite that old..

I don't want to start a new one, when this is around the right place for this question..


I have a 1940's Deardorff 5x7/4x5 Non-Swing field camera. It's not in the absolutely best condition. The bellows is .. well toast, the front focusing rack is broken, and I have no rear Standard with GG, whether the 5x7 or 4x5 reducing back.
The rear main standard (casing) has a crack up the side, but not enough that it'll interfere with camera operations.
With a new bellows and a new back this camera would, technically, be fully functional and usable..

So I was originally looking to send this camera down for repairs... and thought, at first, about Ken Hough.... And that idea went up in smoke quickly, because I don't trust someone like that..
Next, I was thinking again of sending it down to Barry Cochran for the restoration, but after reading this post, and hearing from Terry Moore (on Flickr and I'm sure he is here and on APUG) I am now having second thoughts..

Seeing as I am now unsure of where to send this camera, I have also heard of Mr. Ritter.. but not sure if he'd be the right choice for the restoration of this camera.

Since everyone here probably has hundreds of years of combined experience, I hope to get a straight answer to know where I should send this camera for restoration..

It does need it and I would love to get it back to working and showroom condition. It is a beautiful camera, and I am dying to try it out. It was my Grandfather's camera that he purchased when he was in the army in the 40's before he was relieved of duty before being shipped overseas to the Front Lines in Normandy before the push through France. (Illness). My mom would love to see it restored, and in use. I have no interest in selling the camera, as it would compliment my Calumet CC400 beautifully..

Thanks in advance!
Cheers

[Kevin Crisp]

If I had that camera in that condition (and I do use one just like it without the issues) I'd send it to Ritter for his thoughts. You can get backs from the new Deardorff folks that are new and the prices are not unreasonable. (Not sure if you are saying you have no backs at all, or that the ones you have don't have gg) Mine was unused when I bought it and I am still using the original bellows. It is made of a black material that seems basically like fancy cardboard with a liner, it is still light tight after I first put it in service about 5 years ago.

[Fred L]

I would send it to Richard if it were my camera. You don't need any possible headaches since it's your grandfather's camera and therefore much emotional attachment to it. In fact, even IF he were more expensive, I would still entrust him with the restoration.

[Bruce Barlow]

Richard has worked on many Deardorffs, and many other collectible cameras worth far more. He's reliable, fairly-priced, and does outstanding work.

He is also a good friend, but that's aside from my comments.

[mikendawn]

Kevin Crisp - I do not have a single back at all. I have not a clue where they went to, and what happened to them. But there's a good chance they were destroyed somehow, probably due to either moisture, or otherwise.
Nonetheless, I'm sure that if I were to get a back, and cover the bellows during exposure, this would work out just fine.
I am sure that the bellows was made of a very durable material, but I am unsure on how well this camera was stored, and I have already tested for pinholes in the bellows (and it has pinholes). I have nail polished the bellows and let it sit to cure, but I'd sooner just replace the bellows entirely.

Bruce, Fred... I think I will take your advice to heart, and will be getting in contact with Mr. Ritter. Have heard excellent reviews on him, and, funny enough, have even heard from him about repairing Deardorff and many other wood cameras while reading about the horror stories of Mr. Hough and how so many people have been "Hough"sed...

Thank you guys for such a quick and informative reply!

[Kevin Crisp]

Last time I checked, the new Deardorff (Cochran) was selling complete backs on the auction site. They looked gorgeous and the prices seemed reasonable considering. So many choices for that camera: 5X7, 4X5 wood, 4X5 Graflok, 4X5 rotating Graflok....lots of options.

[welly]

Yes, I was talking about a tripod. But we also sell cameras and lenses. Linhof, Wista and Rodenstock. And we don't announce a new camera or lens till it can be sold. We know from experience that when the factory shows us a prototype of a new product at Photokina in the fall of the year and we order when it is show to us and that the factory tells us Jan. Or Feb. delivery it is a pretty good chance that it will not be available then.

So we announce when we have the merchandise in transit to us for regular retail items.


Conversely, Nikon and Canon announce new cameras months before they're available for sale. I get daily RSS feeds from various websites, blogs and manufacturers announcing new products that will "be available in the summer" or whenever. Not saying you're wrong or they're right but from what I can tell, as a consumer, announcing products before you can buy them seems to be a standard marketing tool.