Basics of 4x5 B&W development

[Bontrager_1]

Hi There.

I just bought my first 4x5 camera, an Orbit rail system.

I have some limited experience with MF 120 black and white development with D-76 and Diafine. I would not call myself an expert, but I do well with these developers for my purposes.

I am curious if someone can provide me some links to some information on learning to develop 4x5 sheet film. I would prefer if I could develop it in daylight (similar to 120 in tank) if possible as I don't really have a darkroom. I saw the Yankee systems at B&H, but they all have bad reviews. I was hoping to find something a little more reliable to use.

Thanks!

E.

[Corran]

I just started about 3 months ago now doing 4x5 and so I started my own film developing. I use BTZS tubes exclusively for b&w and c-41 color development, and the results have been pretty good! I use a small guest bathroom at my apartment to do all my developing. Personally I would look at buying (or making) a set of these and have at it. But I am no expert either :)

[Bontrager_1]

I just started about 3 months ago now doing 4x5 and so I started my own film developing. I use BTZS tubes exclusively for b&w and c-41 color development, and the results have been pretty good! I use a small guest bathroom at my apartment to do all my developing. Personally I would look at buying (or making) a set of these and have at it. But I am no expert either :)

That stuff is awesome. The tubes is a genius idea. I wonder if I could make my own out of PVC and plumbing caps.

[DanK]

I'd suggest beginning with the LF forum homepage, if you haven't already....

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/

There's a section on developing...with a good amount of reliable information...

(I personally stick with trays and tanks for 4x5 - only using daylight tanks for smaller formats)

Cheers,
Dan




Hi There.

I just bought my first 4x5 camera, an Orbit rail system.

I have some limited experience with MF 120 black and white development with D-76 and Diafine. I would not call myself an expert, but I do well with these developers for my purposes.

I am curious if someone can provide me some links to some information on learning to develop 4x5 sheet film. I would prefer if I could develop it in daylight (similar to 120 in tank) if possible as I don't really have a darkroom. I saw the Yankee systems at B&H, but they all have bad reviews. I was hoping to find something a little more reliable to use.

Thanks!

E.

[Leigh]

I've used the Yankee tank for about 100 sheets of 4x5, and have uneven development in many instances. That seems to be a common problem with that tank.

I recently purchased a Nikor stainless steel tank, and I'm hoping for more consistent results with it.

Be advised these are expensive ($200 - $250 range), but likely worth it if the results are as expected.

- Leigh

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

you certainly don't need a "darkroom" to tray process film. All you need is a dark room!! I use a closet.

[Bontrager_1]

you certainly don't need a "darkroom" to tray process film. All you need is a dark room!! I use a closet.

Very true!

I use my bathroom with towels blocking the light from under the doors as my darkroom for loading my 120 film. I suppose it might do for trays, but the space is very tight. It's completely dark.

[Light Guru]

I just got into 4x5 myself. I have yet to develop anything yet but I ordered one of these.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Large-Format-Film-Processor-for-Paterson-3-Reel-Tank_W0QQitemZ130544013105QQihZ003QQcategoryZ29993QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

From everyone I have read and seen online it is the simplest and easiest way to develop 4x5.

[baronvonaaron]

I just got into 4x5 myself. I have yet to develop anything yet but I ordered one of these.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Large-Format-Film-Processor-for-Paterson-3-Reel-Tank_W0QQitemZ130544013105QQihZ003QQcategoryZ29993QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

From everyone I have read and seen online it is the simplest and easiest way to develop 4x5.

i learned to process in tray in college, then swiched to the jobo tanks. since building my own processing kit at home i started using one of these mod holders. i love it. but be warned, it's a little fragile, so don't manhandle it.

sometimes i do get areas of uneven development where the sheet is held in the holder. but it usually disappears once i scan.

the greatest advantage for me is that i live in an rv that's smaller than my college dorm. so only using one tank for all the formats i shoot on is wonderful. also, there is no possible way i can make this place dark, so a daylight tank is my only option.

[Brian Ellis]

I used the BTZS tubes for about 12 years. It's a very good, simple system, I never scratched the film and always had even development. Once the film is loaded and the tubes capped you do everything from there in light. I had six tubes so I did six sheets at a time. You could do more with more tubes but I rarely had a lot of film to process so six sheets at a time was fine for me. As you become more advanced you'll probably be processing different sheets for different times and the tubes are nice for that because you can use different times in the same run.

[Bontrager_1]

I just got into 4x5 myself. I have yet to develop anything yet but I ordered one of these.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Large-Format-Film-Processor-for-Paterson-3-Reel-Tank_W0QQitemZ130544013105QQihZ003QQcategoryZ29993QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

From everyone I have read and seen online it is the simplest and easiest way to develop 4x5.

NICE!

[lmlmlm]

Hi guys, i'm also an amateur in 4x5" but are quite familiar with the usual routine of processing. However there's many things that i still wonder about, usually stuff outside my routine which still puzzle me, like:


What happens if you keep a sheet in the developer for more (or less) than the recommended time? Like, what if i keep it in there for 10 minutes, instead of 7? What if i keep it for 4 minutes? Does that affect the overall contrast, or?
What happens if i wash my older sheets in water again to remove some dust on them? Does that harm the negatives in any way?
What if i go on a roadtrip and keep some sheets in the car, while the outside temperature is around 35°C, and the car will heat up intensely from the sun? Does that harm the sheets?
I am soon to step up to Ilford sheets (due to finish my current batch of cheaper Foma film). Is there anything wrong with developing Ilford 100 sheets in Fomadon LQN? Should i get a different developer? I prefer liquid, since its easier to mix.
If doing tank processing with the sheets in a standing position (5" side horizontal), does it matter if i dunk the same side over and over again, or should i rotate every now and then to dunk both sides?
If using tubes for development, which are supposed to allow daylight processing, how can you take the sheets from the dev to the stop bath if the light is on?
Where can i buy some BTZS tubes? They dont appear to be a regular stock product since bigger photo web-stores dont list such items.
And a question on exposure: i'm still trying to figure out how to precisely do for instance 3 seconds exposure with my lens which only allows 1" exposure. I know i should be using the Bulb and Timer modes, but how can i count exactly 3 seconds before i release the cable? I have tried this a couple of times by counting in my mind which is probably naive and not the "normal" way of doing long exposures.


Thanks!! ;)

[Brian Ellis]

A few quick answers:

1. More time generally increases density of highlights up to a point, which increases contrast. Less time has the opposite effect but if way too less then the midtones and even shadow areas may not be fully developed, resulting in a very thin negative that's almost impossible to print well.

2. No problem, as long as you're careful and don't scratch the film.

3. Not sure, depends to some extent on how long, what kind of film, and other variables. But it's better to keep the film in the trunk of the car if the only other choice is inside the car with closed windows.

4. If LQN is the developer I think it is (liquid concentrate), no.

5. Never used a tank but it sounds like you should dunk both sides.

6. Put the stop bath in a pail or deep tray. Remove the cap from the tubes one at a time and as you remove a cap put the tube in the pail or tray. You just do it fairly quickly and don't leave the tube sitting around with a light shining directly into it.

7. www.viewcamerastore.com

8. You don't need to be accurate to the tenth of a second. "One Mississippi, two Mississippi" etc. works fine with b&w film.

Others can elaborate, that's the short version. You might want to consider starting your own thread with these questions where more people will see them.

[lmlmlm]

Thanks for that, your reply is really helpful. A couple more for anyone willing to respond:


The emulsion side, as far as i know, is the side you are seing when holding the film with the notch in the top right corner. Is this correct? Is this valid for all types of film as a general rule? Are there any exceptions to determining the emulsion side this way?
If using BTZS tubes for development, i can see that you're supposed to insert the sheets with the emulsion inside the curl. All fine but, isn't that going to stick the sheet to the tube? Does that matter, or not? Maybe the developer is only supposed to act on the inner emulsion side, but im not sure about that at this point. I mean what if the sheet is so stuck to the tube that no developer can reach the non-emulsion side? Can somebody please explain?


Thanks again.

[Tony Evans]

For convenience, flexibility and low cost, I strongly recommend that the OP Google "Taco Development".

[Brian Ellis]

Thanks for that, your reply is really helpful. A couple more for anyone willing to respond:


The emulsion side, as far as i know, is the side you are seing when holding the film with the notch in the top right corner. Is this correct? Is this valid for all types of film as a general rule? Are there any exceptions to determining the emulsion side this way?
If using BTZS tubes for development, i can see that you're supposed to insert the sheets with the emulsion inside the curl. All fine but, isn't that going to stick the sheet to the tube? Does that matter, or not? Maybe the developer is only supposed to act on the inner emulsion side, but im not sure about that at this point. I mean what if the sheet is so stuck to the tube that no developer can reach the non-emulsion side? Can somebody please explain?


Thanks again.

With the tubes the film does slightly stick to the side. It's easily removed by applying pressure with your thumb while you pull up or by grasping a corner of the film and pulling up. I used both of those methods at different points in time, either worked fine. Developer doesn't need to reach the non-emulsion side of the film.

[lmlmlm]

Really appreciate your responses Brian.

[h2oman]

Warning: Relative to others here, I'm a complete beginner. I've been developing B&W for a little over two years now, with no previous experience. Here's my system, which seems to produce reasonable results.

1. I develop in BTZS tubes, and I'm happy with that. I bought my set used, from a forum member. They come up every so often, for about half the new price. You could also post a "Want To Buy" if you decide that is the way you want to go. It is apparently also possible to make you own with PVC pipe. Another forum member kindly sent me some sheets of a nylon medical mesh of some sort, about 5 inches by 5 inches. I curl that up and put it in the tube, then put the film in (emulsion side in, as you already figured out). It keeps the film from sticking to the tubes when it comes time to take them out.

2. After development I put the tubes in an 8x10 development tray with about 3 cm of stop bath in it, and spin the tubes to get stop bath to all parts of the film.

3. I have what I guess is called a steel "dip and dunk" tank and stainless steel hangers for fixer and for washing.

The thing I like about the BTZS tubes is the very small amount of developer needed. I also tend to do at least two different developments at a time, so I can develop different tubes differently. The above is all I've ever done, so I don't know how it compares to other methods. I do all this in a bathroom. I have a safelight I use, but Brian once posted that that is not necessary. I got the safelight for free and don't mind working under its light, so that is what I do.

Here is what I've settled on for exposure and development, more through trial and error as opposed to rigorous testing. I shoot mostly HP5+ at ISO 250, some FP4+ at 100. For N development I use D76 1:1 for 7 minutes, for N+1 I use 1:1 for 12 minutes, and for N+2 I use straight D76 for 12 minutes. (I do the same for both HP5+ and FP4+.) I've tried varous things for N-1, but that I don't have down too well. I tend to shoot a lot on overcast days or in the shade, so I do N+1 or N+2 development quite a lot.

I've spent more time just getting my process down one way as opposed to trying a variety of things, which is a bit narrow-minded. So far I've rationalized my approach with the fact that by the time I make a print it seems to look pretty much as I envisioned when I made the exposure, so why change?!?

[frednewman]

Hi - Products labeled BTZS - are products that were designed by Phil Davis and are sold exclusively by the View Camera Store. For an instructional video on how to use the 4x5 BTZS tubes, please go to youtube.com and do a search on the word "viewcamerastore" to find the 2 videos on using the 4x5 BTZS tubes. I had to split it into two parts because at the time you were limited to a 10 minute video.

If you have questions on using the 4x5 BTZS Tubes, you can email or call me for help.

Fred Newman

[h2oman]

I watched the two videos and that was all the instruction I needed! I have had absolutely no beef with the tubes at all. I rarely have more than 4-6 sheets to process at at time, so one set works out fine. I made myself one "dummy" tube out of PVC pipe for when I start with 6 tubes but have an odd number left for a longer processing time.

[frednewman]

Hi h2oman

Sounds like you are doing fine. That's why I did the videos.

Fred Newman