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mob81
29-Jun-2011, 15:31
Dear All,
I want to start discovering the amazing venture of 4x5 Sheet film. Many choices and little knowledge by me :confused: !

I want mainly shoot at home studio that I'm building (Really Small) as I want to try product photography with Large format and plus very few outing here and there. My first choice was Graflex crown as it's kind of portable LF Camera. I might not need many movements for now as I'll consider it a learning stage. I'm just afraid if I get one from ebay it might have problems and then it would be a real PITA to try fixing!

any suggestion with a starter kit and where to get it fully working condition?

All I need is a camera and Film holders and a lens (I guess :confused: )

Any info would be appreciated.

Regards,
Mohammed

darr
29-Jun-2011, 15:44
Hi Mohammed,

There will be lots of suggestions given to you. I just wanted to tell you that I have an Ebony RSW in excellent condition that I will be putting up for sale. The RSW is a perfect camera for landscapes and will take up to a 180mm lens for portraiture, etc. I have had the camera for 2 years and have not used it much. PM if you become interested.

Kind regards,
Darr

Hector.Navarro
29-Jun-2011, 16:25
Hello Mohammed,

welcome to the LFP forum. An Ebony is surely a very nice lightweight camera, although I'd suggest you consider a monorail unless you're planning on walking long distances with it. Check out the articles on the main page:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/

Regards

Darin Boville
29-Jun-2011, 16:33
Dear All,
I want to start discovering the amazing venture of 4x5 Sheet film. Many choices and little knowledge by me :confused: !

I want mainly shoot at home studio that I'm building (Really Small) as I want to try product photography with Large format and plus very few outing here and there. My first choice was Graflex crown as it's kind of portable LF Camera. I might not need many movements for now as I'll consider it a learning stage. I'm just afraid if I get one from ebay it might have problems and then it would be a real PITA to try fixing!

any suggestion with a starter kit and where to get it fully working condition?

All I need is a camera and Film holders and a lens (I guess :confused: )

Any info would be appreciated.

Regards,
Mohammed

Do a search and you'll get lots of advice. basically it boils down to some variation on

Crown Graphic, light, cheap, limited movements.
Toyo 45 series, heavier, more expensive ($600-ish), good movements
Sinar F series, slightly more difficult to use in the field, cheap, modular, lots of movements, lots of accessories, also cheap.

I started with a Crown. I got my kid a Crown to start her off with. I vote Crown Graphic.

--Darin

I Am Luna
29-Jun-2011, 16:34
I was in the same boat as you. Just wanting a basic camera. I got a Sinar F with a normal 15cm lens. I don't need it anymore and it comes with everything you need to start shooting.

The Sinar F is about as basic as you can get. It is a rail camera and almost everyone in LF has had experience with one so you'll have no problems finding answers to the questions you ask.

If you are interested, it comes with everything you need. Body (which has been recently repaired to fix a flaw that all Sinar F front standards have), lens (Fujinar-W 15cm f/6.3 SC with Seikosha-SLV Shutter), dark cloth, loupe, 2 holders and some film(Neopan Acros 100 or something else or maybe none since my friend might buy it from me first). All you need is a tripod and you are set.

Where you located? And what previous experience do you have with film photography?

mob81
29-Jun-2011, 17:25
Thanks for every suggestion and opinion.
I was looking for a camera such as the crown graphic or its size! The Sinar F looks huge which I'm not looking for for the time being.

The ebony looks good in size and such. Where I can find a crown graphic known seller instead of taking the risk and buy it from eBay?

Jim Ewins
29-Jun-2011, 17:32
I have a 4x5 crown, a B&J monorail and a Wisner Expedition all gathering dust. I live in Seattle if you wish to talk. or email jimewins@comcast.net

Darin Boville
29-Jun-2011, 17:33
Best place in here, on the classifieds board. But you have to have more posts or something to see it. Just participate for a bit and learn more and you'll soon qualify...

--Darin

Jim Jones
29-Jun-2011, 19:43
The Crown is not the only similar camera to consider. The Speed Graphic of the same age has a focal plane shutter, permitting the use of less expensife barrel lenses. Burke & James made a camera somewhat like the Crown, but with a rotating back. Busch made a similar camera with a small unique lens board. There is also Meridian and a few others. Many people rely on stores like B&H Photo Video, Midwest Camera Exchange, and KEH.

Alan Gales
29-Jun-2011, 19:58
For product photography I would think you would want a monorail with a 210mm lens.

You also will need a dark cloth. A loupe will also really help out. I own a cheap Toyo 3.6x and it works fine.

Ole Tjugen
29-Jun-2011, 20:01
... as I want to try product photography with Large format and plus very few outing here and there. ...

Forget the Crown, the Speed, and most of the compact field cameras.
You will very quickly need more movements than these provide, especially in a small studio.

Go for a basic monorail or an advanced field camera.

I Am Luna
29-Jun-2011, 20:33
Yea, like the Sinar F. :)

mob81
30-Jun-2011, 00:33
I appreciate all the informative post.
I read about the type of cameras and I realize that field camera and press camera are limited in movement. Monorail cameras are intended for studio work, but I'm just afraid of it's size! I thought basic movement will be sufficient and less learning curve.
I'll order Using The view camera book and continuo reading on the Internet too.

IanG
30-Jun-2011, 01:14
Forget the Crown, the Speed, and most of the compact field cameras.
You will very quickly need more movements than these provide, especially in a small studio.

Go for a basic monorail or an advanced field camera.

Totally agree with Ole, I use Crown, Speed and a Super Graphics, but for studio work you must have a monorail or a very versatile field/Technical camera like a Linhof Tecnika..

You will need a lot of movements for product shots and a monorail camera is ideal and often much cheaper than some of the prices being asked for Crown Graphics these days.

So forget a Crown or Speed Graphic.

Ian

Scotty230358
30-Jun-2011, 03:14
Got to agree with Ole and Ian G on this. I do landscape and architecture and am very happy with my walker titan. However this is a very expensive choice for a first camera. Another suggestion would be the Shen Hao TZ45b II. Plenty of movements front and back and it conveniently take a 300mm lens. I used to backpack a monorail (Linhof Kardan GT) and it was very inconvenient. If you find yourself in the studio at least 75% of the time then a cheap monorail may be your best bet, otherwise look at the Shen.

mob81
30-Jun-2011, 04:21
Yes about 75% of time I'll be on a studio to practice using such a camera.

I'll see the option I might have and decide.

Thanks to you all.

mob81
30-Jun-2011, 04:21
Yea, like the Sinar F. :)

You just don't give up :) ;)

Jim Michael
30-Jun-2011, 05:00
Re the size, keep in mind that as you move things closer to the camera you will need to increase the lens to film distance, e.g. 1:1 with a 210 would put the lens about 420 mm from the film. Consider what you will be shooting and verify that you're going to have adequate room before you commit to a particular camera. Monorails usually allow use of a longer rail or an extension when needed for long lenses or very close work.


I appreciate all the informative post.
I read about the type of cameras and I realize that field camera and press camera are limited in movement. Monorail cameras are intended for studio work, but I'm just afraid of it's size! I thought basic movement will be sufficient and less learning curve.
I'll order Using The view camera book and continuo reading on the Internet too.

mob81
30-Jun-2011, 05:27
Thanks Jim,
I didn't consider that :confused:
Is the field Cameras sufficient for basic product photography (Such as Pens, Cameras, Drinks...etc) on that size mainly?


Re the size, keep in mind that as you move things closer to the camera you will need to increase the lens to film distance, e.g. 1:1 with a 210 would put the lens about 420 mm from the film. Consider what you will be shooting and verify that you're going to have adequate room before you commit to a particular camera. Monorails usually allow use of a longer rail or an extension when needed for long lenses or very close work.

Jim Michael
30-Jun-2011, 08:32
I suppose if I wanted to determine the upper bound I would sketch out some image concepts on a 4x5" grid, take some measurements to get the ratio of film size to object size, and then calculate the bellows extension needed to accommodate the concept with a given lens focal length. Kind of hard to predict what I might want to explore in the future though.

Ivan J. Eberle
30-Jun-2011, 09:03
Feel free to ignore my advice as it's probably going to seem contrarian. That said, for you as a beginner to product photography--if you are thinking of doing this commercially--my opinion is that you're on the wrong track. You'll be competing against others who have long experience with large format view cameras but now have the tremendous economic and immediate-feedback advantage of having largely abandoned LF for digital imaging.

Cameras and lenses may now be cheaper than ever, but it's only because they were once so ubiquitous in commercial and product photography and that are now obsolete for this purpose for most uses. In high volumes, film and scanning of LF film represented a huge expense.

It all boils down to the final use of the images. If you're making enormous enlargements, LF still rules. For many other uses (including most print media ones), it's merely a stylistic choice to use LF over smaller formats, and not the foregone necessity it once was.

Oh, and if you're set on LF, you'll do well to consider a studio monorail with full moves, and interchangeable bellows. Good news is that they're comparatively cheap. If your products are small, you may need a lot of extension (18" on up). Any reasonably good condition Sinar will be more than adequate.

A 210mm lens, while a terrific choice for portraits, is probably too long for easily shooting macros on 4x5. Shorter focal lengths like the 120mm macros work because have large image circles at close focusing distances.

IanG
30-Jun-2011, 09:30
A 210mm lens, while a terrific choice for portraits, is probably too long for easily shooting macros on 4x5. Shorter focal lengths like the 120mm macros work because have large image circles at close focusing distances.

You don't want a lens shorter than a 150mm for product shots or you exaggerate the perspectives.

Ian

mob81
30-Jun-2011, 09:34
Thanks for the advice. I'm not looking to compete with anyone (may be in the future, not near future though :D )
I want it for my own pleasure and learning of movements, and other LF aspects. Once I feel comfortable using it, I want to use it mainly with those gorgeous 4x5 positive sheets :cool: On any occasion I feel like doing it.

For now it's purly pleasure and practice.

By the way, I bought a Sinar F kit from a member here.

I really appreciate all the informative input. You guys are great.


Feel free to ignore my advice as it's probably going to seem contrarian. That said, for you as a beginner to product photography--if you are thinking of doing this commercially--my opinion is that you're on the wrong track. You'll be competing against others who have long experience with large format view cameras but now have the tremendous economic and immediate-feedback advantage of having largely abandoned LF for digital imaging.

Cameras and lenses may now be cheaper than ever, but it's only because they were once so ubiquitous in commercial and product photography and that are now obsolete for this purpose for most uses. In high volumes, film and scanning of LF film represented a huge expense.

It all boils down to the final use of the images. If you're making enormous enlargements, LF still rules. For many other uses (including most print media ones), it's merely a stylistic choice to use LF over smaller formats, and not the foregone necessity it once was.

Oh, and if you're set on LF, you'll do well to consider a studio monorail with full moves, and interchangeable bellows. Good news is that they're comparatively cheap. If your products are small, you may need a lot of extension (18" on up). Any reasonably good condition Sinar will be more than adequate.

A 210mm lens, while a terrific choice for portraits, is probably too long for easily shooting macros on 4x5. Shorter focal lengths like the 120mm macros work because have large image circles at close focusing distances.

mob81
30-Jun-2011, 10:04
I actually want a 150mm rodenstock and when I searched, most are Sinar DB (I don't know if it's compatible or not, how to search for a lens that would fit a certain camera) because of those boards and other aspects.

Thanks

Dave Hally
30-Jun-2011, 10:09
I think you've made a good choice in the Sirar, especially for learning purposes. After you learn about movements and perspective, you will be in a better position to go to a different camera, if you need to.
I do mostly field work, but I tend to do a lot of close-ups, and use a fair amount of movements. Up until now, I have mostly used a Toyo 45A, and just recently purchased a Chamonix 45-n2, which I really like, and would recommend for your future consideration.
I have used monorails (Sinar P zng Graphic View II) both inthe field and some table top work. I believe that the Chamonix will do anything that I've done in the past and more than the Toyo (mostly bellows draw, in this case).
Good luck and show us some of youreork.
Dave

mob81
30-Jun-2011, 10:12
I actually want a 150mm rodenstock and when I searched, most are Sinar DB (I don't know if it's compatible or not, how to search for a lens that would fit a certain camera) because of those boards and other aspects.

Thanks

I also would like to clear out that I'm not going to buy it know as I'll be learning but if a bargain shows up and I'd like to know what to look for.

Jim Michael
30-Jun-2011, 10:15
You typically buy a lens in shutter and then buy a board for your camera that's drilled to the appropriate size for your shutter. If you go to keh.com and drill down to the large format lens section you'll probably find what you're looking for and they should have a board for your camera as well. Badger Graphics is a good source for new lenses.

E. von Hoegh
30-Jun-2011, 10:16
I did semi pro product photography, with a Linhof STIV and once with a DeardorffV8, with a 4x5 back and 300mm lens (long story). The Linhof is great, but expensive and a bit fiddly for a beginner. Forget a V8 'dorff.
I'd reccomend a simple monorail; they're cheap and widely available. If your studio is small, maybe a 180 lens intead of the 210 - you'll use up a bit less bellows, as well.

Good luck - and welcome to the fora!

Just remember, the most important bit of equipment is right between your ears. :)

mob81
30-Jun-2011, 11:40
You typically buy a lens in shutter and then buy a board for your camera that's drilled to the appropriate size for your shutter. If you go to keh.com and drill down to the large format lens section you'll probably find what you're looking for and they should have a board for your camera as well. Badger Graphics is a good source for new lenses.

You mean if i find good lens I'm looking for with shutter (Does't matter, copal or synchro...etc. I just find a board and connect it together and that's it

Jim Michael
30-Jun-2011, 11:49
Yep. Pretty simple. One thing to note is you might see a little variation in the hole sizes on the boards. Some shutters have a little raised area that allows them to be centered accurately in the hole. If the hole is too small you won't get the benefit of that centering action. Someone else might know a little more about which shutters and the exact numbers than I do and may be able to provide some more info.

Ole Tjugen
30-Jun-2011, 12:07
One of the really good things about LF is that (almost) any camera can use (almost) any lens. The only limitations is that some lenses can be too physically large to fit some cameras, and some very short or very long lenses may be impossible to focus on some cameras. Those combinations are rare, extreme, and not something to worry about in general.

I have used many different types of camera. My first was a Linhof Technika 5x7", my second was a Linhof Color 4x5", and after that I really took off with miscellaneous old plate cameras, modern Gandolfis and old Gandolfis.

My current "studio camera" is a Carbon Infinity, which to all intents and purposes is an advanced monorail except that the construction is completely different. While I wouldn't recommend anyone to start with a CI, that is mostly due to price and rarity.

There are some folding "field" cameras that come close to this in movements and flexibility, though. The only one of these I have any experience is the Gandolfi Variant, which I can highly recommend as a versatile camera for both studio and field work. The only drawback I can think of is that it is no longer in production.

Mike Anderson
30-Jun-2011, 12:20
I actually want a 150mm rodenstock and when I searched, most are Sinar DB (I don't know if it's compatible or not, how to search for a lens that would fit a certain camera) because of those boards and other aspects.

Thanks

The Caltar 150 5.6 II-N is the same as a Rodenstock 150mm f/5.6 Sironar-N (at least that's what they told me when I bought mine :)) and is usually cheaper. It requires a board with a Copal #0 size hole (very common). It's a decent 150mm lens. More expensive lenses will give you a bigger image circle hence support larger movements.

I don't think you want a Sinar DB mount because that requires a Sinar shutter but others here can advise you on that.

...Mike

Kuzano
30-Jun-2011, 12:26
Product photography is studio work as a rule. I knew a fellow in SF,CA who did food and small product photography... clients were Jolly Green Giant, McCullouch Chain Saw, other similar.

He had a studio with a full kitchen/dining setup and various food preparers to make up meals. Did some portrait and fashion work.

Tool of choice - Monorail w/full movements front and rear. However, not particularly totable in the field. But, who was it who said "everything worth shooting is within 500 feet of your car."

I also know a number of primarily landscape and scenic photographers, who use nothing but folding field cameras...Wood and metal. I have been told by a couple of them that back movements, not such a big issue, and mostly only moderate front movements.

Architectural photography most likely monorail since it covers both outdoor and indoor (move movement stuff indoors)

So, if you are going to be a general practitioner, ie shoot it all, you will probably be well off to get a monorail and be prepared to learn some fairly abstract movement work.

While you could certainly start with a field camera in the studio, you will be limited in movements, where a Graflex Press or any press camera will be quite limited. Press cameras were primarily designed to allow a press photographer or journalist to grab shots handheld with a rangefinder and movements on such cameras were almost an afterthought. The most movements on a Press camera that I am aware of was the last Graflex press... the Super Graphic, which actually had a couple of movements that most photographers never discovered during their use of the camera-- quite nicely hidden.

Prepare to be driven to different equipment over time. With this in mind, I never concerned myself with "cadillac" brands. All of these camera's must do just a few things:

1) hold an appropriate lens/shutter on a front standard that allows movements you determine you need in your style of photography.
2) hold an appropriate film holder on a rear standard that allows movements you decide you need in your style of photography.
3) be light tight

Certainly there are other considerations, such as weight and portability, ruggedness, ease of movements, good lockdown on the movements.

However there are many very affordable less popular (namewise) cameras that can do all the latter quite well.

Don't blow your budget on the first camera because it's the name everybody bandies about. Probably my reason for never owning a Leica or a Hasselblad. Notice I stayed away from Large Format cameras, so as to not step on toes. However, there are a number of large format cameras that are quite overpriced by virtue of name alone. They don't really offer much more to the equation than some of the midrange, and even lower priced equipment.

Alan Gales
30-Jun-2011, 13:01
I actually want a 150mm rodenstock and when I searched, most are Sinar DB (I don't know if it's compatible or not, how to search for a lens that would fit a certain camera) because of those boards and other aspects.

Thanks

A DB mounted lens does not contain a shutter. You use the DB mounted lens with a Sinar Shutter. The Sinar Shutter fits between the front standard and the bellows. The beauty of the Sinar Shutter is that it can work with all your lenses so all your shutter speeds are exactly the same for each lens. You can also buy old barrel lenses that don't have a shutter and use them with the Sinar Shutter.

The downside of the Sinar Shutter is that it is expensive. If you decide to buy one used make sure that it comes with all the cables with it or don't buy it. This includes a special cable release, a two piece cable that cocks the shutter when a film holder is inserted and a flash sync cable. These cables are very hard to fine used and cost a small fortune new.

Keep looking. There are plenty of 150mm Rodenstock lenses out there in modern Copal shutters. :)

IanG
30-Jun-2011, 13:20
A DB mounted lens does not contain a shutter. You use the DB mounted lens with a Sinar Shutter. The Sinar Shutter fits between the front standard and the bellows. The beauty of the Sinar Shutter is that it can work with all your lenses so all your shutter speeds are exactly the same for each lens. You can also buy old barrel lenses that don't have a shutter and use them with the Sinar Shutter.

The downside of the Sinar Shutter is that it is expensive. If you decide to buy one used make sure that it comes with all the cables with it or don't buy it. This includes a special cable release, a two piece cable that cocks the shutter when a film holder is inserted and a flash sync cable. These cables are very hard to fine used and cost a small fortune new.

Keep looking. There are plenty of 150mm Rodenstock lenses out there in modern Copal shutters. :)

The other downside of a DB shutter is your DB lenses are then useless on other cameras which can't take a Sinar board.

You can use lenses on Linhof/Wista & similar clone boards with an adapter to fit a Sinar board so at a later date could also use one of a variety of technical/field cameras including Shen Hao, Ebony, Chamonix etc as well of course as Linhof, Wista and other older companies.

Ian

mob81
30-Jun-2011, 15:24
Wow guys, that's many information and I'm enjoying reading your comments.
I actually is searching some info of the lens board as I saw many with different size or number of holes to know which lens and board combo to use.

Thank you all again for all this info.

I Am Luna
30-Jun-2011, 16:09
I'm the lucky guy who he choose for his first 4x5.

It is my Sinar F with the standard bellows and rail. It also comes with the Technika adapter so he could use some smaller lens boards.
Also he will be getting a Fujinar-W 15cm f/6.3 SC with a Seikosha-SLV shutter. Lens is pristine.
Since I want him to quickly enjoy the fun of 4x5 I also put in a dark cloth, 2 film holders, cable release and a box of some really expired E6 film. Kodak E64. Hopefully it turns out viewable :)

Alan Gales
30-Jun-2011, 16:20
The newest lenses come in Copal shutters so you just buy the corresponding Sinar or Technika board for the shutter that you have. For example: Copal 0, Copal 1 or Copal 3. For older shutters you can always drill out a board or have someone do it for you.