Blotches on negatives?

[Jay Decker]

What do you think is the most probable cause of the blotches (left of the turbine blades) on the negative below ?

Film: 8x10 Efke 25
Equipment: Jobo 3005 Drum on a CPP-2 Processor
Development (75 deg. F):
- Presoak: 1 min
- Pyrocat-MC 1+9 Part A: 5 min (Divided Development)
- Pyrocat-MC 1+9 Part B: 5 min
- Stop (water): 30 sec
- FT-4 Fix: 3 min
- Wash: 10 min


http://monkeytumble.com/tmp/WindMill.jpg

[Gem Singer]

Looks like reticulation.

I am aware that Kodak and Ilford incorporate a hardener in their gelatin coating, and I
wonder if Efke uses a gelatin that softens at a much lower temperature?

[matthew klos]

Can someone explain to me reticulation?

[sully75]

Not scanner rings by any chance?

[sully75]

looks to me like it dried against another negative?

[Bruce Watson]

That actually looks like a scanner problem to me. Like poor fluid mounting maybe. Or just a high humidity environment with just enough moisture to stick the film to the scanner glass in places. But if that was the case you should have felt/heard it when you peeled the film off the glass (it wouldn't have just slid off because it would have been stuck at least a little; you would have had to pick up an edge and peel it back to get it off the glass).

The artifacts are way too big to be reticulation IMHO. What you are showing is a full frame 10x8 film, yes?

If you look at the film on a light table with a loupe (or in this case, just the naked eye) do you see these artifacts just like this image? If you see it on the film itself... it is perhaps processing or drying marks. By processing marks I mean it looks sorta like the film stuck to the drum (I don't see how that's possible in a 3005 drum), or stuck to some other surface when drying maybe. Did you use Photo-flo or the equivalent in your final rinse? If not, could be just splotches on the film from drying without the water sheeting off properly. Final rinse in distilled water? If not, how hard is your tap water? Doesn't take much in the way of dissolved minerals to cause something like this if you aren't using Photo-flo.

[DanK]

looks to me like it dried against another negative?

Ditto

[Doug Herta]

Jay - I got a similar pattern from 8X10 neg film in a print drum on a CPP2 using divided development Pyrocat-HD. I tried the next one in non-divided developer and did not have the same problem.

Do you have other negatives where you tried the exact same divided development and they came out OK? Did they have large areas of the same shade (sky?).

From my experience I concluded that divided Pyrocat development in the CPP2 works for 120 and 4X5 but not 8X10. I thought it may have been partially due to using a print drum.

Those who are doing it successfully please chime in. I feel a little better that I am not the only one who ran into this. Is it due to the rapid development occurring when Part B is added and it washes across the film in an uneven manner?

[dsphotog]

Are you using 1 or 2 direction rotation?
I had a few blotches, and cured it by changing the rotation direction half way through each step, & using more chem in the drum.

[Jay Decker]

Looks like reticulation.

I am aware that Kodak and Ilford incorporate a hardener in their gelatin coating, and I
wonder if Efke uses a gelatin that softens at a much lower temperature?

These are full frame 8x10 negatives and the blotches only cover parts of the negatives...



looks to me like it dried against another negative?

They dried clothesline style with plenty of separation and there are no indications on the surface, so I don't think that was it.


That actually looks like a scanner problem to me. Like poor fluid mounting maybe. Or just a high humidity environment with just enough moisture to stick the film to the scanner glass in places. But if that was the case you should have felt/heard it when you peeled the film off the glass (it wouldn't have just slid off because it would have been stuck at least a little; you would have had to pick up an edge and peel it back to get it off the glass).

The artifacts are way too big to be reticulation IMHO. What you are showing is a full frame 10x8 film, yes?

If you look at the film on a light table with a loupe (or in this case, just the naked eye) do you see these artifacts just like this image? If you see it on the film itself... it is perhaps processing or drying marks. By processing marks I mean it looks sorta like the film stuck to the drum (I don't see how that's possible in a 3005 drum), or stuck to some other surface when drying maybe. Did you use Photo-flo or the equivalent in your final rinse? If not, could be just splotches on the film from drying without the water sheeting off properly. Final rinse in distilled water? If not, how hard is your tap water? Doesn't take much in the way of dissolved minerals to cause something like this if you aren't using Photo-flo.

I don't think it is a scanning issue, because the artifacts are "in" the emulsion when viewed with a loupe. The artifacts also are not surface artifacts. I soak my negatives in distilled water and Photo-flo prior to drying them. However, to make sure that it wasn't a drying issues, I did rewet these negatives in distilled water again, adding some wetting agent, and drying them again with no effect.


Jay - I got a similar pattern from 8X10 neg film in a print drum on a CPP2 using divided development Pyrocat-HD. I tried the next one in non-divided developer and did not have the same problem.

Do you have other negatives where you tried the exact same divided development and they came out OK? Did they have large areas of the same shade (sky?).

From my experience I concluded that divided Pyrocat development in the CPP2 works for 120 and 4X5 but not 8X10. I thought it may have been partially due to using a print drum.

Those who are doing it successfully please chime in. I feel a little better that I am not the only one who ran into this. Is it due to the rapid development occurring when Part B is added and it washes across the film in an uneven manner?

I used a Jobo 3005 drum and I used divided Pyrocat for 8x10 film numerous times (mostly with FP4+ instead, but I have use divided Pyrocat with Efke 25 before also) and haven't noticed any problems with open sky or any were else.


Are you using 1 or 2 direction rotation?
I had a few blotches, and cured it by changing the rotation direction half way through each step, & using more chem in the drum.

The drum reverses about every revolution and half. I'm using a 1 liter of solution in the 3005 drum, which the largest chemical volume Jobo recommends for this drum.


After spending more time looking them on the light table, the blotches look like a liquid spots or a liquid flow pattern...

[dsphotog]

I'd try re-fixing/washing, one of the negs.

[RickV]

Jay, I'd support the flow pattern theory. They look like hand prints. I used to get similar marks on MF films when handling the undeveloped film without surgical gloves. My skin contact with the film was during spiral loading and seemed almost imperceptible. It seems that I was depositing natural oils from my hands onto the film which was inhibiting even absorption of developer into the emulsion. High temp and short dev times further exacerbate this problem. Pre-soaking in water doesn't rectify this for obvious reasons. I also found that this problem doesn't rear its ugly head with tray processing when you can manage handling film by tiny corner contact.
Looking at your marks, they do seem to be "deposited" in the one direction which you may be able to associate with a procedure you employ in the same longitudinal direction. Just something for you to consider.

[sully75]

I'm no expert (AT ALL!) but I recently started using hypo clear in my wash sequence and it seems to be helping. Haven't used it a ton, but my last set of negatives were my cleanest ever and I've had a lot of problems in the past.

Paul

[johnielvis]

AHHHHH yessssssss

plagued me for EVER

this is the film sticking to the back of the drum--if the back of the drum is smooth--the back of the film sticks to it and doesn't get adequate wetting...causes that stain--it will NOT come out--trust me--tried everything.

there are many and varied ways to deal with this--some people put a screen behind the film--some drums are designed with ridges on them--like on the bottom of photo trays--to keep the amount of smooth tube/smooth film contact area a minimum. nothing works perfect though...and sometimes the screen/ridges show up too....I have a bunch of 11x14 fp4 with the imprint of a screen on the back over the entire film--lot of time wasted there---what a headache. Each film behaves differently too--kodak film seems to be the most forgiving wiht this I've notices.

the best solution (I haven't done this) for a drum is to put a bunch of little raised dimples all around on the inside--like micro-bubblewrap--or the oppostie of what the outside of a golf ball looks like---you want RAISED bumps so chemicals can get back there and out of there--holes trap fluid.....OR...dig a bunch of channels in the tubes--full length---but you need enough meat on the tube.

still working on the best way to handle the best tube surface design---raised dimplesseem sot me to be the best.

[bob carnie]

This is classic film mottling in neutral tone areas.
Cause is insufficient agitation in the first 30 seconds of development.

With our 8x10 Pyro Development in Expert Drums on Jobo. The chemistry is auto sucked into the tank very fast, the Drum is pulled off the machine and hand agitate for the first 30 seconds with good agitation , twisting and inversion.
Then we put it back on the Jobo for the balance of the run.

Are you using Distilled water for your developer?? we found this to be very important as well.

Open areas of sky, grey backdrops are killers for this problem.
You will see the mottling on the film.

Reticulation, if you have it would be all over the surface and it looks like little worms have invaded the emulsion.. this can happen if huge temp changes and I mean huge.

[IanG]

You've another potential issue going from quite an alkaline developer into an alkaline or near neutral fixer without a stop bath, there can be some development continuing in the initial fixing stage. Some people get dichroic fog as a consequence so recommend a stop-bath.

Presumably you mean TF-4 fixer, it's designer actually advocates using a stop bath with it, that's what he does himself.

If you use a mildly acid fixer like Ilford Rapid fixer or Hypam there's no issues with a water rinse.

Another problem with any developer you mix yourself (and often bought in versions) is there's no surfactants. Sometimes there's no problems with using tap water but I've found with Pyrocat and hard water there can be problems, in my case it's air bells but in other cases it'll be uneven flow. This is why Bob Carnie's saying use distilled water that helps enormously, and pay particular attention to the initial agitation. De-ionised water from a Brita drinking water softener is just as good.

Ian

[johnielvis]

wow--you're not going to know what to do with all of these people piping in.....same thing happened to me---went on many wild goose chases

You will waste much time until you hit on the cause. I know I did.

to save time FIRST, determine which side that marks are on---look at the surface of the back of the film on a very extreme glancing angle with bright light shining off of it---if the marks are on the back, you'll see them as a dulling of the specular reflection of the light---if the marks are on the back, then you got sticking.

in either case, Mr. Carney is correct--more agitation will solve the problem on both sides---if you have sticking on the back, more agitation will get more chemicals back there to break the vacuum and prevent the sticking/chemical absorption/staining IF it is sticking.

also, it will prevent front mottling.

FIRST things first--see which side it's on.